Where will the redeemed spend the 7th millennium?

[8thdaypriest]

I am a "weight of the evidence" kinda girl.  I want to see all of the arguments, with their supporting Scripture, and then "weigh" them.  I realize that my "scale" is personal, but I still think it worth the exercise.

So - let me start with this piece of "evidence".  I think it supports a worldwide destruction. 

    2 Peter 3:7, 10-12  “But the heavens and the earth which now exist are kept in store by the same word, reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men . . .” “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up."

“I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
     And the heavens, they had no light.
     I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
        And all the hills moved back and forth.
     I beheld, and indeed there was no man,
        And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
     I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
        And all its cities were broken down
     At the presence of the LORD, By His fierce anger”  (Jeremiah 4:23-26).

“Without form and void” (Strong’s # 08414  & #0922) – these are the same Hebrew words that were used to describe the earth on the first day of creation, before God made anything (Genesis 1:2).  The earth was dark, and without life.  

    The prophecy by Jeremiah, was written before the Babylonians destroyed Judea, and Jerusalem.  That destruction was a type, a warning for us in these last days before the “coming of the Son of Man” (1 Cor. 10:11).  The Babylonians did NOT kill every man in Judea, and the cities of that day were not destroyed by the “presence of the LORD.”

Isaiah Chapter 34
    34:1-2  “Come near, you nations, to hear; And heed, you people! Let the earth hear, and all that is in it, the world and all things that come forth from it. For the indignation of the LORD is against all nations, And His fury against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to the slaughter.”  (See also Revelation 16:14.)

    34:3  “Also their slain shall be thrown out; Their stench shall rise from their corpses, And the mountains shall be melted with their blood.”  

    34:4  “All the host of heaven shall be dissolved, And the heavens shall be rolled up like a scroll;  All their host shall fall down As the leaf falls from the vine, And as fruit falling from a fig tree.”  (See also Revelation 6:14.)

    34:8-10  “For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, The year of recompense for the cause of Zion.  Its streams shall be turned into pitch,  And its dust into brimstone; Its land shall become burning pitch.  It shall not be quenched night or day; Its smoke shall ascend forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; No one shall pass through it forever and ever.”
    (See also Revelation 14:10-11 & Revelation 19:3.)

    NOTE: Verses 5 - 6 of this study, tell us that this prophecy concerns “Edom” the kingdom of Esau’s descendants.  The LORD calls them “the people of My curse.”  But the “land of Edom” is not still burning today.  The ancient destruction of Edom by the Babylonians was the type. The rest of the passage tells us that this prophecy concerns the whole earth - burned with unquenchable fire.

    34:11  “He shall stretch out over it the line of confusion [meaning ‘without form’] and the stones of emptiness [meaning ‘void’].”

Once again, here is the "without form, and void".   If this is the condition of the entire earth, it will necessitate a new creation.  The QUESTION:  When will this creation take place? 

The "stream" flowing from Ezekiel's Temple, heals the land where it flows.  WHEN will Ezekiel's Temple be built?  How long will the earth lie desolate "without form, and void" ?  And WHERE will the saints be, while the earth is in this condition? 

[BobRyan]

The 7th millennium is  spent in heaven because the 2nd coming starts the millennium and at the 2nd coming all the saints are taken to heaven (John 14:1-4 and 1Thess 4)... and all the wicked are destroyed - Rev 19.

 

Thus we are left only with the "desolate earth" condition of Jeremiah 4  for that 1000 years.

 

 

 

Rev 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh

 

 

Ez 32:4-8
4 ""I will leave you on the land; I will cast you on the open field. And I will cause all the birds of the heavens to dwell on you, And I will satisfy the beasts of the whole earth with you.
5 ""I will lay your flesh on the mountains And fill the valleys with your refuse.
6 ""I will also make the land drink the discharge of your blood As far as the mountains, And the ravines will be full of you.
7 ""And when I extinguish you, I will cover the heavens and darken their stars; I will cover the sun with a cloud And the moon will not give its light.
8 ""All the shining lights in the heavens I will darken over you And will set darkness on your land,'' Declares the Lord GOD.



 Jer 4:23
I looked on the earth, and behold, it was formless and void; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, And all the hills moved to and fro.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, And all the birds of the heavens had fled.

26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness, And all its cities were pulled down Before the LORD, before His fierce anger.
 

 Jer 25:33

 ""Those slain by the LORD on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be lamented, gathered or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.
 

] Zeph 1:18

 Neither their silver nor their gold Will be able to deliver them On the day of the LORD'S wrath; And all the earth will be devoured In the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Isaiah 24
1 Behold, the LORD lays the earth waste, devastates it, distorts its surface and scatters its inhabitants.
2 And the people will be like the priest, the servant like his master, the maid like her mistress, the buyer like the seller, the lender like the borrower, the creditor like the debtor.
3 The earth will be completely laid waste and completely despoiled,
 

It is obviously a World Wide Calamity – World Wide catastrophe

Isaiah 24

17 Terror and pit and snare Confront you, O inhabitant of the earth.
18 Then it will be that he who flees the report of disaster will fall into the pit, And he who climbs out of the pit will be caught in the snare; For the windows above are opened, and the foundations of the earth shake.
19 The earth is broken asunder, The earth is split through, The earth is shaken violently.
20 The earth reels to and fro like a drunkard And it totters like a shack, For its transgression is heavy upon it, And it will fall, never to rise again.
21 So it will happen in that day, That the LORD will punish the host of heaven on high, And the kings of the earth on earth.

 

[8thdaypriest]

Just to give another view: 

THE EARTH - THE LAND

  The Hebrew word translated as “earth,” is the same word often translated as “land.”  It is “ ‘erets” (Strong’s #0776). We must examine the context to know whether the word refers to the whole earth, as in Genesis Chapter one, OR refers to the promised “land,” given to Israel.  In the Greek Apostolic Writings, we have the same problem with the Greek word “ge” (Strong’s #1093).  It is translated as “land,” and as “earth.”  (The ancients had no concept of “earth” as a globe suspended in space.)  
        You now understand why some folks teach that prophecies of destruction apply only to “the land” of Israel, not to the entire earth. They site the prophecies of coming destruction by the Babylonians or Assyrians, and say that these prophecies were limited in scope.  I believe that clues, within the prophecies, tell us that these are dual prophecy.  They applied - yes - to the destruction of the ancient “land” of Israel, but they apply with equal, or even greater force to the coming destruction of the entire “earth” at the end of this age. 

NOTE:  If the "land" promised to Abraham is completely destroyed, wiped out, left lifeless, where nothing will grow - then how can the redeemed live there during the upcoming 7th millennium?

[8thdaypriest]

Hebrew Roots teachers, say that only followers of the Beast will be killed at the Second Coming.  They say that "the nations" will survive the return of Christ in glory, and then Messiah will reign over those nations.  They say that the Levite/Aaronic priesthood will be restored, at a restored Temple in Jerusalem, and Israel will rule over "the nations" during the 1000 years.

I do NOT AGREE with them, but I'm looking for more Scriptural arguments against it. 

If I am an Israelite, because I have been "grafted in" thru Christ, then (according to them) I would be one of those who will "rule the nations".  I can personally tell you:  I'm not ready to rule over anyone !!!  For that - I would need about 1000 years of preparation and training. 

Edited August 4, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

I wonder just WHEN Ezekiel's Temple will be built.  If it is built, part way through the 7th millennium, then the redeemed could move onto the "land" healed by the waters flowing from that Temple. They plant vineyards - right?  So they would need living plants, and WATER.

The 7th year was a REST year.  The Jubilee began on the 10th day of the 7th month.  There were 5 months 20 days remaining, of the 7th "year".  Maybe that's a clue, as to WHEN the redeemed return to this earth, to rebuild and restore.

    Jeremiah Chapter 33:7-18  “And I will cause the captives of Judah and the captives of Israel to return, and will rebuild those places as at the first.”  They will be “a name of joy, a praise, and an honor before all nations of the earth, who shall hear all the good that I do to them; they shall fear and tremble.” A descendant of David will reign, and “execute judgment and righteousness in the earth.”

    Amos 9:11-12 “‘On that day I will raise up The tabernacle of David, which has fallen down, And repair its damages; I will raise up its ruins, And rebuild it as in the days of old; That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and all the Gentiles who are called by My name,’ Says the LORD who does this thing.”

    NOTE: The name translated as “Edom” can just as reasonably be translated “Adam” - meaning mankind.  The remnant of mankind will come to God through Christ, the legal heir to the “House of David”. 

[8thdaypriest]

The 1000 years are a sabbath - or "rest" for the earth. 

Leviticus  indicates that desolation is "rest" for the land.

  Leviticus 26:33-35  “I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.  Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths.  As long as it lies desolate it shall rest – for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.”

But again, this is "the land".  Is this "the land" of Israel, or is this the whole world?

Genesis says the 7th day of rest was commanded for all mankind - descendants of Adam/Eve.  They have almost totally disregarded that command.  Therefore the LORD is legally justified is demanding a "rest" for the ENTIRE earth. 

[8thdaypriest]

The "bride" of Christ is The New Jerusalem.   If Jesus marries the New Jerusalem, you would think that the redeemed would live in that City, at least for some period of time. 

The New Jerusalem does not come down from Heaven to this earth, until AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle.  Right?  

The Gog/Magog Battle does not take place UNTIL AFTER the 1000 years (Rev 20:7-9). 

But there are people living in "the "land", "on the mountains of Israel", because Gog says he will conquer them and take their belongings as "booty" (Ezek 38:11-12) .  The people living in "the land" were resurrected (Ezekiel 37) and were "gathered out of all countries" (Ezek 36:24).  They were "brought back from the sword and gathered from many peoples on the mountains of Israel" (Ezek 38:8). This sounds like redeemed Israel - to me.

So that puts redeemed Israel on "the land", BEFORE the Gog/Magog Battle, and BEFORE the Holy City descends. 

But HOW LONG BEFORE???

Some say the account in Ezekiel just predicts the return from Babylonian captivity, and the rebuilt Temple of Zerrubabel.  They say the "river" flowing out from that Temple is the Spirit of Christ, flowing out to heal the world.

Gog and his army would then be the attackers that come AFTER the return from Babylon. The problem with this, is that God did NOT defend Israel from the Romans, or the Muslims either. 

[JoeMo]

To be honest, I am on the fence with this.  In my limited intellect, I see some verses like the ones Rachel has quoted as pointing to a millennium in heaven.  But, being aware of Rachel's question over the Hebrew word "erets" and the Greek word "ge", I don't have any confidence in saying that the the end-time destruction referes to just the Middle East or the entire planet. I read other verses like Rev.2:26-27 ("To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations—  that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter"); Rev 12:5 (" She gave birth to a son, a male child, who “will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.” And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne."); and Rev. 19:15 ("Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty."); and I can't help but think that this points to a millennium on earth.

On the other hand, I believe in a pre-wrath rapture of the saints; so why would God remove the saints from the earth only to put them back on a shattered planet or in a shattered Israel?

  I  think that (at least I'm hoping) it won't matter from a salvation perspective; but it is an intiguing question.

[Samie]

Where will the redeemed spend the 7th millennium?  I think the Bible says they will reign with Christ on earth.

Revelation 5:9-10   ⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  ¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

^KJV Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

[TrevorL]

Greetings Samie,

Where will the redeemed spend the 7th millennium?  I think the Bible says they will reign with Christ on earth.

Revelation 5:9-10   ⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  ¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

^KJV Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I agree with your conclusion. It could also be asked, If the faithful are made kings and priests for the 1000 years, over whom do they rule or shepherd as kings, and who do they instruct as priests if all the mortals are destroyed. Also many of the OT prophecies cannot be understood if we add the earth desolate for 1000 years template that William Miller was prominent in advocating. For example Isaiah 2:1-4, 65:17, Micah 4:1-8, Daniel 2:35,44, Zechariah 14, Acts 3:19-21 and many other Scriptures all teach that there will be mortals upon the earth during the 1000 years.

Kind regards

Trevor

Edited August 5, 2015 by TrevorL

[8thdaypriest]

Where will the redeemed spend the 7th millennium?  I think the Bible says they will reign with Christ on earth.

Revelation 5:9-10   ⁹ And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;  ¹⁰ And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

 

^KJV Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 24 elders, in Rev. 5:9-10, do not say WHEN they "will reign on the earth".  This doesn't tell me whether it is during the 7th millennium, or during the 8th millennium.

Revelation 20:4 " saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.  5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

Once again:  Rev 20:4-6 does not tell me whether they reign at the 7th millennium, or the 8th.  The 24 Elders were "raised" moments after Christ was raised - 2000 years ago, yet they will "reign on the earth". 

"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."  This does sound like "reigned 1000 years" immediately follows "came to life", but we all know that Bible prophecy can leave some WIDE gaps between prophesied events. 

The 24 elders reign "on the earth" - AS PRIESTS.  The people from the "first resurrection" will "reign with Him" AS PRIESTS.  But for whom??? 

The role of the priest was to teach the law, and to govern, as well as to "make atonement" (reconciliation). 

QUESTION:  Who still needs to be reconciled to God?  Who needs to be taught the Law of Yahweh?  Who needs to be governed?  There are NO PEOPLE from "the nations" still alive on the earth during the 7th millennium.  Right?  So - WHO will these "priests" reign over, teach, and make reconciliation FOR?  WHO??

I believe it will be the people raised after the 1000 years, as "the rest of the dead".  These people (I believe) have not yet made a choice either for or against Christ and His Father. 

Here's a link to a study at my website titled "A Kingdom of Priests":  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/20-Kingdom of Priests.pdf

Blessings, Rachel Cory

[TrevorL]

Greetings again 8thdaypriest,

The 24 elders, in Rev. 5:9-10, do not say WHEN they "will reign on the earth".  This doesn't tell me whether it is during the 7th millennium, or during the 8th millennium.

Revelation 20:4 " saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.  5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years."

Once again:  Rev 20:4-6 does not tell me whether they reign at the 7th millennium, or the 8th.  The 24 Elders were "raised" moments after Christ was raised - 2000 years ago, yet they will "reign on the earth". 

"They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years."  This does sound like "reigned 1000 years" immediately follows "came to life", but we all know that Bible prophecy can leave some WIDE gaps between prophesied events. 

The 24 elders reign "on the earth" - AS PRIESTS.  The people from the "first resurrection" will "reign with Him" AS PRIESTS.  But for whom??? 

The role of the priest was to teach the law, and to govern, as well as to "make atonement" (reconciliation). 

QUESTION:  Who still needs to be reconciled to God?  Who needs to be taught the Law of Yahweh?  Who needs to be governed?  There are NO PEOPLE from "the nations" still alive on the earth during the 7th millennium.  Right?  So - WHO will these "priests" reign over, teach, and make reconciliation FOR?  WHO??

Isaiah 2:1-4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

There will be mortals during the 1000 years and the faithful from the present 6000 years will be king-priests teaching these people who have survived the judgements of Armageddon and the immediate era, possibly 40 years of transition from the kingdoms of men to the Kingdom of God. The concept of transferring all of this to the 8th millennium is fanciful and ignores most of the details of the prophecies that relate to the Kingdom of God.

Nearly 50 years ago a SDA Pastor and his assistant visited my home to discuss the Bible at the request of a senior SDA lady. They knew I was interested in prophecy especially the prophecies concerning Israel, as I had discussed some of these prophecies with her son during and after the 1967 Six-Day War. When we discussed some of the prophecies similar to Luke 1:32-33, Romans 11 and Isaiah 2:1-4, possibly also Micah 4:1-8 which speaks of the restoration of Israel as well as teaching of the nations, they suggested that we can now discount nearly all of the OT prophecies as they represent what would have happened if Israel had responded to the Messiah.

Also about that time I met a senior SDA and I asked how did he understand Zechariah 14. His answer was is that he could not fit this prophecy in with his views.

Both of these encounters in my early 20s set me on another path than that presented by the SDAs. More recently I have discussed some of these things with SDAs, but still have not received a credible answer to many of the prophecies. All of the SDA literature in my possession seems to ignore such passages as Isaiah 2:1-4. The continuing trouble in the Middle East is some indication that the time of trouble centring on Jerusalem will soon occur. I am not sure if SDAs will start to refocus on the many prophecies concerning these things as they start to occur. Hopefully some will start to see that the prophecies are a light shining in a dark place.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by TrevorL

[JoeMo]

Matthew 24:22 says "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

So it appears to me that there still could be life on earth after the tribulation.  Is the only life left the very elect (who will be in heaven for 1,000 years); or will there be pockets on unconverted humans remaining on the earth whom we will rule over and minister to for 1,000 years?

[8thdaypriest]

Matthew 24:22 says "If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

So it appears to me that there still could be life on earth after the tribulation.  Is the only life left the very elect (who will be in heaven for 1,000 years); or will there be pockets on unconverted humans remaining on the earth whom we will rule over and minister to for 1,000 years?

Time "cut short" is for the "sake of the elect" - NOT for anyone else.  If the LORD did not intervene to save His elect, no one (of the elect) would be alive to see Him come.  Everyone would need to be resurrected.  That's my take on this verse. 

CAN ANYONE SURVIVE THE 7 WRATH PLAGUES?

Jesus said, “Heaven and earth will pass away, . . .”  (Mark 13:31, Lk 21:33, Matt. 24:36).  

FIRST:  Consider what will already have happened under the Trumpet judgments.

First Trumpet:  One third of all the trees and all green grass are burned up.

    Second Trumpet:  One third of all creatures alive in the ocean are destroyed, and one third of all ships are destroyed, probably by an asteroid hit.  A “mountain burning with fire” is “thrown into the sea” (Rev. 8:7-8).

    Third Trumpet:  One third of all rivers are contaminated.  Men are made sick and many die after drinking the bitter tasting water.

    Fourth Trumpet:  One third of sunlight and one third of moonlight is darkened.  Dust may have been thrown into the atmosphere by an asteroid hit, blocking the sun OR perhaps by massive volcanic eruptions OR by a massive nuclear exchange.   Growth of plant food will be limited.     
Fifth Trumpet: Those without “the seal” of God are tormented for five months.     

    Sixth Trumpet:  One third of mankind is killed by “fire, smoke, and brimstone” (melted earth) after “four messengers headed for the river Euphrates” are released.

    This could be a massive nuclear exchange, or an asteroid, or cometary hits.

NOW the WRATH PLAGUES

First Bowl: A plague causing “loathsome sores” (Rev.16:2).
        
Second Bowl:  Every living thing in the sea dies (Rev. 16:3).  

    If the ocean no longer supports life, there is no food chain.  
    There is also little oxygen, because sea vegetation produces 75% of our oxygen.

Third Bowl:  All of the rivers and all of the springs of water become like blood.   They will not support life (Rev. 16:4).

Fourth Bowl:  The sun gets hotter and scorches men with fire (Rev. 16:8).  Possibly a gamma ray burst, or the result of the earth being knocked into a different orbit around the sun.  Many will die of the intense heat or of radiation.

    The “sores” of the first plague may be radiation burns.  John may be describing different effects following the same event.  Everything is set in motion on the day that Christ removes His people and His Spirit from the earth.

Fifth Bowl:  Darkness will cover the “kingdom of the beast” (Rev. 16:10).   The beast power rules the entire earth - therefore this plague of darkness will be universal.  

        If a large asteroid were to impact earth, dust would be thrown into the atmosphere, blocking the sunlight.  Scientists believe a similar hit wiped out the dinosaurs.

Sixth Bowl:  Demonic powers gather “the kings of the earth and of the whole world” for a global war, against the LORD (Rev.16:14).  

    The nations of earth will prepare to fight against Christ as if He is an invading alien force.

Seventh Bowl: “Every island fled away and the mountains were not found.  Great hail from heaven fell upon men, every hailstone about the weight of a talent [100pds]” (Rev. 16:18-21).  

    This will be the greatest earthquake ever known!  The surface of the earth will be broken apart  to an incredible degree - an earthquake with the power to break apart every known fault over the face of the entire earth.  If the “sky” is parted, or “rolled up like a scroll,” (Rev. 6:14, Isa. 34:4) that suggests our atmosphere may be disrupted.  If the oceans are vaporized by an asteroid hit, the water vapor may be dispersed into outer space - leaving the planet dry and lifeless.
    
    With no clean air, no drinkable water, no food, severe heat then darkness, and then an asteroid shower, while the surface of the earth is broken up - do you really think there could be any human life left on this planet!? 

If a very small number of human beings (not of redeemed Israel, but belonging to "the nations") WERE TO SURVIVE the last plagues, it wouldn't take much for Israel to "rule over them".  And what would this accomplish?  It would do nothing for the billions who lived and died in ignorance of Yahweh and His Son.  The current population of our earth - about 7.12 billion, population experts say, approximately equals the number of people who have previously lived on this planet.  So - that's 14.24 billion people.  Of those billions, how many were reached by the knowledge of Yahweh?  Only a fraction.  And of those reached, only a relatively small number entered into covenant, and remained faithful to covenant. 

My belief is that God WANTS to reach those who were NOT REACHED during their lifetimes.  And He has a plan to reach them, after they are resurrected at the 8th millennium.  All the verses sited by TrevorL  can just as easily apply during the 8th millennium.  Nothing sited proves that these prophecies will be fulfilled during the 7th millennium. 

Another thing to think about, is that there "will be no more sea" in the "new earth".  Which means there will be 3 times more land mass, to accommodate a greater number of people.  

 

Edited August 7, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[JoeMo]

Hi Rachel,

I really appreciate your knowledge and thoughts in this area.  However, I'm still not convinced.  For example, I consider Isaiah to be a book full of eschatology.  In Isaiah 10, God says:

"The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One a flame; in a single day it will burn and consume his thorns and his briers.
¹⁸ The splendor of his forests and fertile fields it will completely destroy, as when a sick person wastes away.
¹⁹ And the remaining trees of his forests will be so few that a child could write them down.

²⁰ In that day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of Jacob, will no longer rely on him who struck them down but will truly rely on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel.
²¹ A remnant will return,^[b] a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God.
²² Though your people be like the sand by the sea, Israel, only a remnant will return."

All of Zech. 8 could be applied to a millennial Israel.  I admit that it could also apply to an 8th millennial Israel. The same is true of Zeph. 2 and 3.

Isaiah 13:11-13 says : "I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
¹² I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.
¹³ Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger."

Notice God says He makes men rare, not extinct.

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest), 

CAN ANYONE SURVIVE THE 7 WRATH PLAGUES?

FIRST:  Consider what will already have happened under the Trumpet judgments.

I appreciate your response mainly to JoeMo. I found it interesting that you mention the Trumpet judgements and then the 7 Wrath Plagues. You give the impression that all of these are future, just before or at the time of the return of Jesus. Without spelling out the detail, I believe that the 6 Trumpets are now in the past, and also 5 of the Bowls of Wrath Plagues. I believe that we are in the midst of the 6th Bowl. The Trumpets and the Plagues are symbolic language and depict events that have occurred.

You claim that virtually no one could survive all these events but note the following underlined shows that some at least survived each event, but these judgements did not bring repentance to these survivors.
Revelation 16:8-11 (KJV): 8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

Even the 7th Bowl some survive:
Revelation 16:21 (KJV): And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

A simple and clear reading of these passages shows that there is a sequence associated with the return of Jesus, with the conversion of natural Israel and the subjugation of the nations and peace upon earth for 1000 years.

My belief is that God WANTS to reach those who were NOT REACHED during their lifetimes.  And He has a plan to reach them, after they are resurrected at the 8th millennium.  All the verses sited by TrevorL  can just as easily apply during the 8th millennium.  Nothing sited proves that these prophecies will be fulfilled during the 7th millennium.

The New Jerusalem does not come down from Heaven to this earth, until AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle.  Right?  

The Gog/Magog Battle does not take place UNTIL AFTER the 1000 years (Rev 20:7-9).

No, I believe the God/Magog of Revelation 20 is different to that of Ezekiel 38.

 

But there are people living in "the "land", "on the mountains of Israel", because Gog says he will conquer them and take their belongings as "booty" (Ezek 38:11-12) .  The people living in "the land" were resurrected (Ezekiel 37) and were "gathered out of all countries" (Ezek 36:24).  They were "brought back from the sword and gathered from many peoples on the mountains of Israel" (Ezek 38:8). This sounds like redeemed Israel - to me.

So that puts redeemed Israel on "the land", BEFORE the Gog/Magog Battle, and BEFORE the Holy City descends.
 

Looking at this example, I find it interesting that you quote from Ezekiel 38. In my understanding there is here a clear picture of natural Israel TODAY, who have returned to the land from their previous scattering among the nations. The sequence is then an invasion from the north, the intervention of God, the conversion of natural Israel and then the establishment of the Temple as depicted in Ezekiel 40-48. I cannot see any reasonable explanation of how all of this can be transferred to the 8th millennium. Is God going to slay all the Jews at the second coming, say 6 million in the land, and 6 million in the nations and then raise both of these, and then place some in the land and some amongst the nations. What about all the Jews who have lived, say in the last 2000 years? Will all of this then be the platform to then fulfill Ezekiel 38?

Another problem I have is will God raise all the wicked that he drowned in Noah’s flood, and then give them another chance? Would not this allow these wicked to spread the same evil that they practiced before the flood? My understanding is that God’s judgements are just and effective in achieving His ultimate goal of filling this earth with His Glory Numbers 14:21.

Kind regards
Trevor

Edited August 8, 2015 by TrevorL

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest),  

 

A simple and clear reading of these passages shows that there is a sequence associated with the return of Jesus, with the conversion of natural Israel and the subjugation of the nations and peace upon earth for 1000 years.

I lost the sequence in my editing of my previous Post and left it too late to correct. The above should be in response to your statement:

My belief is that God WANTS to reach those who were NOT REACHED during their lifetimes.  And He has a plan to reach them, after they are resurrected at the 8th millennium.  All the verses sited by TrevorL  can just as easily apply during the 8th millennium.  Nothing sited proves that these prophecies will be fulfilled during the 7th millennium.

A simple and clear reading of these passages shows that there is a sequence associated with the return of Jesus, with the conversion of natural Israel and the subjugation of the nations and peace upon earth for 1000 years.
Kind regards

Trevor

Edited August 8, 2015 by TrevorL

[8thdaypriest]

Hi TrevorL,

You believe that DNA descendants of Jacob (mostly from Judah) will all be converted, and come to worship Christ as the Son of God.  Right? 

I don't. 

I do not believe that salvation has anything to do with DNA.  It has everything to do with faith.

The LORD chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel for a specific TASK - that of acting out prophecy, through the Tabernacle ceremonies.  God also promised Abraham that his descendant thru Isaac would be a "blessing to all nations".  

My belief is that "Israel" is the name of the people of God.  Those who enter into covenant with Yahweh, and remain faithful to that covenant ((bringing a sin offering when needed), REMAIN citizens of "Israel".  Those who forsake the covenant, will be "cut off" FROM Israel.  All of the redeemed will finally be citizens of God's Israel. 

I like Thomas Lancaster's book, "Grafted In".  There is a study on my website titled, "Israel - the Man, the Nation, the People of God". 

Here's the link:  http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book Chapters/9-Israel.pdf

I regard the current geo/political nation called "Israel", as a counterfeit. 

Here's a snip from the website study.

    Romans 11:26  “And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written, ‘The Deliverer will come out of Zion, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob, For this is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.’”
    
    If “Israel” (here in Paul’s letter) includes every person of faith - and only persons of faith - who have entered into covenant with God thru Christ, who are humble at heart and strive to obey God, then I would wholeheartedly agree with Paul.

    NOTE:  Some teach that all physical descendants of Jacob will eventually be saved, but I cannot agree.  Those who worshiped the golden calf (Exo. Chpt 32),  Nadab and Abihu who offered “strange fire” and died in the “fire” of God Himself (Lev. Chpt 10),  Korah, Dathan, and Abiram who led a rebellion against Moses with 250 princes (Num. Chpt 16) - these are just a few of those who rebelled against God, and were “cut off” from the people.

            NOTE:  Others teach that biological descendants of Jacob will receive special place and honor in Messiah’s coming kingdom on earth.  They will be the teachers of the law. They will be the priests, and the judges.  I can NOT agree with this teaching either.  God rewards faith - not biological descent.  Paul wrote, “There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile] . . . for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  And if you are Christ’s then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29).

    Romans 9:27  “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved.”

    The “remnant” is what’s left - a small portion of the whole.

Blessings,  Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Rachel,

I really appreciate your knowledge and thoughts in this area.  However, I'm still not convinced.  For example, I consider Isaiah to be a book full of eschatology.  In Isaiah 10, God says:

"The Light of Israel will become a fire, their Holy One a flame; in a single day it will burn and consume his thorns and his briers.
¹⁸ The splendor of his forests and fertile fields it will completely destroy, as when a sick person wastes away.
¹⁹ And the remaining trees of his forests will be so few that a child could write them down.

²⁰ In that day the remnant of Israel, the survivors of Jacob, will no longer rely on him who struck them down but will truly rely on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel.
²¹ A remnant will return,^[b] a remnant of Jacob will return to the Mighty God.
²² Though your people be like the sand by the sea, Israel, only a remnant will return."

All of Zech. 8 could be applied to a millennial Israel.  I admit that it could also apply to an 8th millennial Israel. The same is true of Zeph. 2 and 3.

Isaiah 13:11-13 says : "I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless.
¹² I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.
¹³ Therefore I will make the heavens tremble; and the earth will shake from its place at the wrath of the Lord Almighty, in the day of his burning anger."

Notice God says He makes men rare, not extinct.

Thanks for pointing out Isa 10:17  - "in a single day".  That matches Rev. 18:8, speaking of the destruction of the Harlot. 

Revelation 18:8 "Therefore in one day her plagues will overtake her: death, mourning and famine. She will be consumed by fire, for mighty is the Lord God who judges her." (NIV)

I believe that DAY will be the DAY that the last wrath plagues are poured out.  The 10 Kings "burn her with fire", which could be a nuclear attack. 

QUESTION:

You don't think the rare people, will be the remnant (the redeemed)? 

Edited August 8, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

TrevorL,

Can you tell us please.  When and by what manner were 5 of the Trumpets fulfilled? 

When were 1/3 of all trees and all green grass burned up - across the whole earth?

When was 1/3 of the sea, "turned to blood"?  Is this WWII? 

When were 1/3 of all land water sources turned bitter?

When were the sun and stars darkened, so their light did not shine over 1/3 of the earth?

I'm think that you believe a MidEast war will fulfill the 6th Trumpet, and kill 1/3 of mankind. 

[8thdaypriest]

Joe,

Thanks again for all your input.  As you have repeatedly said, "This is not a salvation issue."  One can certainly be "saved" whether he believes the redeemed will be living on the earth, or living "in the Father's House" - in the New Jerusalem, DURING the 7th millennium. 

We could be living on the land promised to Abraham, after the healing stream flows out from Ezekiel's Temple.  That's possible.  We could be living there for PART of the 7th millennium.  I think it's pretty clear that "the land" will be devastated, and will need some serious healing before it would support much life. 

I personally do NOT feel ready to govern any part of "the nations".  I would need some significant preparation first.  

It is possible that the redeemed will return to the land promised to Abraham, (for most of the 7th millennium) which will be healed by Christ, but the REST of the land area will remain lifeless, and those who were not translated off the earth before the plagues, will also remain dead, during the 7th millennium.  It's possible. 

The 8th Day scenario would "work" whether the redeemed spend the 7th millennium in the New Jerusalem, or in "the land". 

You may just have to remain "unconvinced".  I have given my reasons for believing that the redeemed will be living IN HEAVEN - IN THE NEW JERUSALEM, for most, if not all, of the 7th millennium. 

1.  The universal effects of the plagues.  The earth is left "without form and void".

2.  That "the heavens" as well as the earth "pass away".  The heavens "roll up like a scroll".  "The earth is "moved out of its place" necessitating "new heavens". 

3.  That the 7th (Sabbath) millennium is a "rest for the land".  Which means no sowing, and no reaping. 

4.  That the "priests of God and of Christ" CANNOT SERVE or minister as priests, UNTIL they complete their consecration of 7 "days".   Aaron and his sons (the first priests) were told to "remain within the Tabernacle" until the 8th day.

5.  All the prophecies which show that perfect "cleansing", perfect "healing", "consecration", perfect "circumcision", and the "presentation" (to God the Father) of redeemed Israel as the perfect "offering" will NOT take place UNTIL "the 8th day".  "With the LORD a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years."

Blessings always,  Rachel,  prophecyviewpoint.com

 

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest), 

You believe that DNA descendants of Jacob (mostly from Judah) will all be converted, and come to worship Christ as the Son of God.  Right? 

I don't. 

I do not believe that salvation has anything to do with DNA.  It has everything to do with faith.

The LORD chose Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Israel for a specific TASK - that of acting out prophecy, through the Tabernacle ceremonies.  God also promised Abraham that his descendant thru Isaac would be a "blessing to all nations".  

My belief is that "Israel" is the name of the people of God.  Those who enter into covenant with Yahweh, and remain faithful to that covenant ((bringing a sin offering when needed), REMAIN citizens of "Israel".  Those who forsake the covenant, will be "cut off" FROM Israel.  All of the redeemed will finally be citizens of God's Israel. 

No, I do not believe that at the coming of Christ ALL of natural Israel will be converted, but I definitely believe that many will be converted and this remaining amount will then become the restored nation of Israel, the first dominion of the Kingdom of God upon the earth during the 1000 years.
Micah 4:6-8 (KJV): 6 In that day, saith the LORD, will I assemble her that halteth, and I will gather her that is driven out, and her that I have afflicted; 7 And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever. 8 And thou, O tower of the flock, the strong hold of the daughter of Zion, unto thee shall it come, even the first dominion; the kingdom shall come to the daughter of Jerusalem.

Zechariah for example does not speak of ALL, but seems to indicate that 2/3rds of those in the land will perish, while the third will be brought through the fire and be converted.
Zechariah 13:8-9 (KJV): 8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. 9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

The following seems to indicate that Jesus and the twelve Apostles will rule over this restored and converted nation of Israel.
Luke 1:30-33 (KJV): 30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
Matthew 19:28 (KJV): And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

 

NOTE:  Some teach that all physical descendants of Jacob will eventually be saved, but I cannot agree.  Those who worshiped the golden calf (Exo. Chpt 32),  Nadab and Abihu who offered “strange fire” and died in the “fire” of God Himself (Lev. Chpt 10),  Korah, Dathan, and Abiram who led a rebellion against Moses with 250 princes (Num. Chpt 16) - these are just a few of those who rebelled against God, and were “cut off” from the people.

            NOTE:  Others teach that biological descendants of Jacob will receive special place and honor in Messiah’s coming kingdom on earth.  They will be the teachers of the law. They will be the priests, and the judges.  I can NOT agree with this teaching either.  God rewards faith - not biological descent.  Paul wrote, “There is neither Jew nor Greek [Gentile] . . . for you are all one in Christ Jesus.  And if you are Christ’s then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29).
 

I agree that salvation is individual and only those that believe the gospel including the promises to Abraham will inherit the promises including the land promise during the 1000 years Genesis 13:14-15, Galatians 3:16,26-29. I also believe that at the Second Coming of Jesus will convert Israel and subject and convert all the nations. Thus the promise of Genesis 12:3, the blessing of all nations in Abraham’s seed, Jesus Christ, will have its greatest fulfillment during the 1000 years.

Can you tell us please.  When and by what manner were 5 of the Trumpets fulfilled?

When were 1/3 of all trees and all green grass burned up - across the whole earth?

When was 1/3 of the sea, "turned to blood"?  Is this WWII?

When were 1/3 of all land water sources turned bitter?

When were the sun and stars darkened, so their light did not shine over 1/3 of the earth?

I'm think that you believe a MidEast war will fulfill the 6th Trumpet, and kill 1/3 of mankind.
 

This would need a long explanation, but briefly a few indications. It is symbolic language, not literal. I believe that the Seals are from AD96 to the time of the overthrow of Pagan Rome AD312. The Trumpets are from AD312 to the French Revolution AD1789. The Vials are from AD1789 until the return of Christ in the 6th Vial, probably soon. Regarding one aspect of the 6th Vial may suffice. The drying up of the River Euphrates corresponds with the drying up of the Turkish Empire especially with respect to the clearance of the Holy Land to allow the Jews to return. This aspect is similar to the details of Ezekiel 38, where the Jews have returned to the Holy Land in unbelief of Jesus as Messiah. The scenario is now ripe for the invasion depicted in Ezekiel 38, mentioned in Revelation 16 as the Battle of Armageddon. Christ’s return to the faithful will also occur at this time as also alluded to in Revelation 16. I believe that Daniel 11:40-45, Joel 3 and Zechariah 14 also describe the same event as Ezekiel 38 and they give additional perspectives to these events.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

Edited August 9, 2015 by TrevorL

[8thdaypriest]

Thanks TrevorL,

I see your view.  I just hold to a different view.  I have posted reasons for my view.  If I find additional reasons, as time goes on, I'll come back and post them.  For now -  I really don't have much else to say on this subject.

Blessings,  Rachel

[TrevorL]

Greetings again Rachel (8thdaypriest), 

I see your view.  I just hold to a different view.  I have posted reasons for my view.  If I find additional reasons, as time goes on, I'll come back and post them.  For now -  I really don't have much else to say on this subject.

I appreciate your statement. It is most probably difficult for both of us who are used to different environments to appreciate the other point of view. I find the difference between the SDA view and my understanding is spelt out reasonably clearly on pages 478-479 of “SDAs Answer Questions on Doctrine” 1957. I would align myself with those who the book calls “literalists” or “British literalists” who are premillennial and also believe in “the restoration of the Jews”. The last paragraph of page 479 also says “the Millerites denied … the premillennialist literalism that required detailed fulfillments, after the second advent, of Old Testament prophecies of the earthly rule of Israel over carnal nations”.

I assess that you are to some extent different to some aspects of the SDA view as you attempt to include some of these OT prophecies. By comparison I recollect that the SDA Pastor and his assistant seemed to indicate that the Temple mentioned in Ezekiel 40-48 would not be built, and suggested a “spiritual” interpretation of the various components. But both yourself and the SDAs may deny that Ezekiel 38 speaks about the present status of the children of Israel, having recently returned to their land in unbelief of Jesus as the Messiah.

The following is an example of one writer who held the belief in the return of the Jews. He had contact with and expressed respect for William Miller. The following is partly based on his understanding of Ezekiel 38 and was written in 1848. His reference concerning India may be considered to be influenced by the position of the British Empire and India and how underdeveloped Palestine was in his day, but his understanding of the Jewish emigration and their latter day position in the land is based on Ezekiel 38:

There is, then, a partial and primary restoration of Jews before the manifestation, which is to serve as the nucleus, or basis, of future operations in the restoration of the rest of the tribes after he has appeared in the kingdom. The pre-adventual colonization of Palestine will be on purely political principles; and the Jewish colonists will return in unbelief of the Messiahship of Jesus, and of the truth as it is in him. They will emigrate thither as agriculturists and traders, in the hope of ultimately establishing their commonwealth, but more immediately of getting rich in silver and gold by commerce with India, and in cattle and goods by their industry at home under the efficient protection of the British power. And this their expectation will not be deceived; for, before Gogue invades their country, it is described by the prophet, as “‍a land of unwalled villages, whose inhabitants are at rest, and dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates; and possessed of silver and gold, cattle and goods, dwelling in the midst of the land‍” Ezekiel 38:11-13.

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Aliensanctuary]

I've been beating myself up for years trying to figure the millennium thing out. Not much to show for it except some bruises and a few ideas.

8th Day, I have visited your website in order to understand your POV. It seems that the day after the 7-day "isolation" period from the laws of Moses is what you base your 8th Millennium on. Haven't figured out yet where in scripture those who have never heard the good news are resurrected during the 8th Millennium to hear the Kingdom explained.