Where will the redeemed spend the 7th millennium?

[Wingnut]

Maybe it would be good to write out - in as short a form as possible WHAT we believe (not WHY yet). 

I believe:

1.  At the Second Coming: Christ will resurrection all of the redeemed, and give them eternal life, with new "spiritual bodies".

Good idea.  I agree fully with your point 1.

Rachel:  2.  At the Second Coming:  IF there ARE any righteous witnesses still living, they will be given eternal life.  Their physical bodies will be changed to new "spiritual bodies".

Wingnut: I agree "Paul wrote 'we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the LORD in the air..' implying there will be those alive and remaining at Christ's second coming.

Rachel: 3.  At the Second Coming:  Those confirmed in rebellion against God, will HEAR judgment pronounced against them.  Those who have died will be resurrected to HEAR this judgment. 

They will then be left to die in the last plagues.  

Wingnut: I see no scriptural evidence for this.  

Rachel: 4.  The redeemed will be removed from this earth at the 7th trumpet.  They will not go through the last wrath plagues which are poured out WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds. 

Wingnut:  We are close here.  I believe that at the 7th trump all the righteous left on earth, as well as the righteous dead are raised (for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be saved).

I believe however that there is a few year earlier rapture at the 6th seal or "parousia" when Christ first appears at the 2nd coming.  The 6th seal  is the start of God's punishing the earth.  Up to then it was Satan bringing plagues, the 4 horsemen, Great Tribulation etc.

Rachel: 5.  Those who lived and died in ignorance are NOT raised at the SC.  Their sins were those of ignorance, and thus are not counted against them.  They will sleep on through the 7th millennium.

Wingnut:  I fully agree.

Rachel: 5.  The redeemed (Israel) will go with Christ to "the City which He has prepared", where they will enter into training and preparation for priesthood. 

Wingnut: I don't believe in this 7M training period.

Rachel: 6.  At the 8th millennium, redeemed Israel will "return to the land" to rebuild and restore.  They will build Ezekiel's Temple. 

Wingnut: I believe this will be built during the 7M.

Rachel: 7.  A river of life will flow out from Ezekiel's Temple to restore the face of the earth. 

Wingnut:  The Ezek 47 river is the one which starts at Christ's second coming when His feet stand on the Mount of Olives.  But otherwise we are in agreement on the river from the Ezekiel temple which is built at the beginning of the 7M, IMHO.

Rachel: 8.  "The rest of the dead" will come to life.  They will constitute "nations".  They will be governed by the priesthood - under Christ.

Wingnut: Agreed

Rachel: 9.  Satan will be released, because now there are souls for whom the battle has not been decided.  He will seek to deceive them.

Wingnut: Agreed.

Rachel: 10.  Many will come to know the LORD.

Wingnut: Agreed. 

Rachel: 11.  Many will rebel against the ruler-ship of Christ.  They will come against "the land of Israel" (not just against Jerusalem), as the army of Gog-Magog.

Wingnut: Agreed.

Rachel: 12.  God will defend His City.  Fire will come down from Heaven to consume them.

Wingnut: Agreed.

Rachel: 13.  The Holy City New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven.   

Wingnut: Agreed.

I think we are 10/13 in agreement or 77% in agreement  

 

[8thdaypriest]

Bones and combustible material do not lie around for 1000 years and then still need burying.  In most parts of the world these mortal remains do not remain even 100 years if left unburied.

The conditions on this planet, AFTER the SC, may not be what they are today.  The atmosphere is changed.  "The heavens will pass away with a great noise" (2Pet 3:10). 

[8thdaypriest]

Good idea.  I agree fully with your point 1.

 

So the redeemed are removed from the earth, and are not present on the earth during the 7 wrath plagues. 

In your view, do they come back to the earth - to teach and govern the people who survived the last plagues?

[JoeMo]

So Joe - you don't believe the fire that comes down at Gog-Magog is the final "lake of fire".  Right?  The final one comes AFTER Gog-Magog, at the conclusion of the Great White Throne Judgment.  Right?

Strange as it may be Rachel, I never gave that any thought.  I'll have to think about that.  On the surface, it makes sense.

[Wingnut]

So the redeemed are removed from the earth, and are not present on the earth during the 7 wrath plagues. 

In your view, do they come back to the earth - to teach and govern the people who survived the last plagues?

Yes.

[Wingnut]

The conditions on this planet, AFTER the SC, may not be what they are today.  The atmosphere is changed.  "The heavens will pass away with a great noise" (2Pet 3:10). 

In the 8M, before New Jerusalem descends.

[8thdaypriest]

 

Rachel: 4.  The redeemed will be removed from this earth at the 7th trumpet.  They will not go through the last wrath plagues which are poured out WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds. 

Wingnut:  We are close here.  I believe that at the 7th trump all the righteous left on earth, as well as the righteous dead are raised (for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be saved).

I believe however that there is a few year earlier rapture at the 6th seal or "parousia" when Christ first appears at the 2nd coming.  The 6th seal  is the start of God's punishing the earth.  Up to then it was Satan bringing plagues, the 4 horsemen, Great Tribulation etc.

 

 

I would like to address this "parousia" - coming in presence only, a few years before Christ appears in glory. 

I looked at every verse where "parousia" was used.  The other Greek word - the one that Darby taught, refers to the "glorious coming" is "apokalupsis". 

    Matthew 24:37 “As the days of Noah were, so also will the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man be.”

    Luke 17:26,30  “As it was in the days of Noah ... so it will be also in the day when the Son of Man is revealed (apokalupsis).

        Matthew says the “parousia” will be like the days of Noah.  Luke says the “apokalupsis” will be like the days of Noah.  Both apostles were quoting Jesus.  Do you think BOTH apostles were describing the SAME event?  And by the way, Noah’s flood was no “secret”.  

    2 Peter 3:12 “looking for and hastening the coming (parousia) of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat.”

        If the “parousia” is the “day of God” - and on that day “the heavens will be dissolved”,
    this cannot be the “secret coming” - “in presence” only, to rapture a group of select saints.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-8   “Now, brethren, concerning the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ  and our gathering together to Him, . . . that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” . . .  “And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming (parousia).”

        The parousia will not come UNTIL the Antichrist is revealed, and the Lord will destroy the Antichrist with the brightness of His parousia (secret coming)?  
    Brightness doesn’t sound very secret ..... 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

In the 8M, before New Jerusalem descends.

Oh - so the heavens do NOT "pass away" at the SC.  They don't pass away TIL the 8th millennium - in your view. 

Edited October 11, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[JoeMo]

Good idea.  I agree fully with your point 1. JoeMo: I agree 100%

Rachel:  2.  At the Second Coming:  IF there ARE any righteous witnesses still living, they will be given eternal life.  Their physical bodies will be changed to new "spiritual bodies".

Wingnut: I agree "Paul wrote 'we who are alive and remain will be caught up to meet the LORD in the air..' implying there will be those alive and remaining at Christ's second coming.  JoeMo: I agree

Rachel: 3.  At the Second Coming:  Those confirmed in rebellion against God, will HEAR judgment pronounced against them.  Those who have died will be resurrected to HEAR this judgment.   They will then be left to die in the last plagues.  

Wingnut: I see no scriptural evidence for this.

JoeMo: The only way I can go with Rachel's 8th Millennium is to assume she is correct about the resurrection of the wicked dead - if the "rest of the dead" are resurrected in the 8th millennium.   Wingnut - when do you think the unrighteous dead are resurrected and receive judgement?

Rachel: 4.  The redeemed will be removed from this earth at the 7th trumpet.  They will not go through the last wrath plagues which are poured out WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds. 

Wingnut:  We are close here.  I believe that at the 7th trump all the righteous left on earth, as well as the righteous dead are raised (for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be saved).

I believe however that there is a few year earlier rapture at the 6th seal or "parousia" when Christ first appears at the 2nd coming.  The 6th seal  is the start of God's punishing the earth.  Up to then it was Satan bringing plagues, the 4 horsemen, Great Tribulation etc.

JoeMo: This one is a little complicated for me.  I'll have to address it in a separate post.

Rachel: 5.  Those who lived and died in ignorance are NOT raised at the SC.  Their sins were those of ignorance, and thus are not counted against them.  They will sleep on through the 7th millennium.

Wingnut:  I fully agree. JoeMo: Me too

Rachel: 5.  The redeemed (Israel) will go with Christ to "the City which He has prepared", where they will enter into training and preparation for priesthood. 

Wingnut: I don't believe in this 7M training period.

JoeMo: Not that it's a big sticking point for me, but I lean towards the 7M taking place here on earth

Rachel: 6.  At the 8th millennium, redeemed Israel will "return to the land" to rebuild and restore.  They will build Ezekiel's Temple. 

Wingnut: I believe this will be built during the 7M.

JoeMo: Going along with the 7M being here on earth, I'm with wingnut here.

Rachel: 7.  A river of life will flow out from Ezekiel's Temple to restore the face of the earth. 

Wingnut:  The Ezek 47 river is the one which starts at Christ's second coming when His feet stand on the Mount of Olives.  But otherwise we are in agreement on the river from the Ezekiel temple which is built at the beginning of the 7M, IMHO.

Rachel: 8.  "The rest of the dead" will come to life.  They will constitute "nations".  They will be governed by the priesthood - under Christ.

Wingnut: Agreed

JoeMo: I agree with everything below this point.

Rachel: 9.  Satan will be released, because now there are souls for whom the battle has not been decided.  He will seek to deceive them.

Wingnut: Agreed.

Rachel: 10.  Many will come to know the LORD.

Wingnut: Agreed. 

Rachel: 11.  Many will rebel against the ruler-ship of Christ.  They will come against "the land of Israel" (not just against Jerusalem), as the army of Gog-Magog.

Wingnut: Agreed.

Rachel: 12.  God will defend His City.  Fire will come down from Heaven to consume them.

Wingnut: Agreed.

Rachel: 13.  The Holy City New Jerusalem will come down from Heaven.   

Wingnut: Agreed.

I think we are 10/13 in agreement or 77% in agreement  

 

[Wingnut]

Oh - so the heavens do NOT "pass away" at the SC.  They don't pass away TIL the 8th millennium - in your view. 

Correct.  Strange that a few seconds ago I too did a search of everywhere "parousia" (Strongs G3952) is used and came to conclude that I may be wrong about that being the word for His "appearing" (at the rapture) vs his coming (at the 7th trump).  At the time you have saints leaving the earth, I have them meeting the LORD in the air, to return to earth a few weeks later.  They are raised to watch God pour out the 7 vial plagues, and they have front row seats to watch their persecutors getting persecuted.  

Will have to see if there is another Gk word for the rapture.

[JoeMo]

"Rachel: 4.  The redeemed will be removed from this earth at the 7th trumpet.  They will not go through the last wrath plagues which are poured out WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds. 

Wingnut:  We are close here.  I believe that at the 7th trump all the righteous left on earth, as well as the righteous dead are raised (for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be saved).

I believe however that there is a few year earlier rapture at the 6th seal or "parousia" when Christ first appears at the 2nd coming.  The 6th seal  is the start of God's punishing the earth.  Up to then it was Satan bringing plagues, the 4 horsemen, Great Tribulation etc.

JoeMo: This one is a little complicated for me.  I'll have to address it in a separate post."

 

This has been of great interest to me; and my opinion has been quite fluid over the past few years.  here's where I am now (might change tomorrow):

 

The first 4 seals are the result of man's inhumanity to man. It is not until the 5th and6th seal that we begin to see overt supernatural participation in the demise of this age.

It is during the 5th and 6th seals that the 7 trumpets fall. The First trumpet announces the beginning of the final 1260 days. The first 4 trumpets are the beginning of overt demonstration of supernatural warfare taking place on the planet.  True - satan wreaks havoc on the planet during this period; but that's only because God has given him permission to do so.  The last 3 trumpets are called 3 "woes; cuz they are REALLY bad.

It is just prior to these trumpets that the 144,000 Israelites and the great multitude are "sealed"; and the two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem.  In Rev. 11; when God calls the 2 witnesses to heaven, translation or the "pre-wrath" rapture may occur.  It won't be secret.

 

IMHO, Rev. 9-14 aren't as much chronological as they are almost simultaneous.  Trumpets could come in rapid succession or occur at the same time.  Rev. 15 seems to indicate the the redeemed are already in heaven prior to the pouring out of the 7 bowls.  That would place the rapture sometime between the 4th and 6th trumpet, IMHO.  I have even considered the possibility of more than one rapture - the 144,000 first, the great multitude next; and any who would give themselves to Christ immediately before the 7 bowls.  However it happens, no one is translated prior to the last 1260 days - probably not until halfway through it.

[8thdaypriest]

 

Rachel: 3.  At the Second Coming:  Those confirmed in rebellion against God, will HEAR judgment pronounced against them.  Those who have died will be resurrected to HEAR this judgment. 

They will then be left to die in the last plagues.  

Wingnut: I see no scriptural evidence for this.  

 

 

ARE BOTH WICKED AND RIGHTEOUS RESURRECTED AT THE SECOND COMING??   

I believe they will be.  I will give my reasons.

A.  Daniel 12:1-2    "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."  (NIV)

"Everlasting contempt" is a forever judgment.   Some of the multitudes who are resurrected (awake) to "shame and everlasting contempt". 

B.  John 5:28-29  “Do not marvel at this; for the hour  is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.”  And one might add,  "everlasting condemnation". 

One fellow here, has made this verse apply to every human who ever lived.  I personally believe it applies to those who have actually "done good" or "done evil".  Children and those who lived and died in ignorance, have NOT "done evil".  In order to do "evil", one must understand that he is in rebellion against GOD.  No "evil" is counted against the ignorant. 

C.  Acts 24:15  “I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”

    “a resurrection” - singular - involving BOTH the just and the unjust.

D.  Jesus will divide the sheep from the goats at his coming.

    Matthew 25:31-34 & 41  “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’ . . .  Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:’”

E.      Romans 2:5-11  “But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.” (NIV) [Paul then says that both Jews and Gentiles will receive their due reward or punishment.] “For God does not show favoritism.”

Once again:  The ignorant and children have DONE neither "good" nor "evil".  "If you were blind, you would have no sin." 

F.      2 Timothy 4:1  “I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”
    
    THIS is “the time of the dead that they should be judged” (Rev. 11:18).  At the appearing of Christ, the wicked who have died, will be raised to face judgment.

[Wingnut]

Wingnut - when do you think the unrighteous dead are resurrected and receive judgement?

In the order of Rev 20

 

9  and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:(1) and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 (2)And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

11 

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 (4) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 (3)And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So (1) Gog/Magog army or the wicked alive in the 8M destroyed with fire

Immediately followed by (2) Satan destroyed by fire

Immediately followed by the incorrigibly wicked resurrected, given their sentence and being swallowed up by a river of molten lava called the lake of fire.

Which at the same time this sea of lava consumes every grave and ends death (4)  3 and 4 are simultaneous.

I believe the above is perfectly described in Luke's parable of Lazarus and the rich man.  This is not so much a parable as a description.

This true description shows a quick judgment (maybe time for a few sentences, followed by being overrun by lava.

This parable does not show the rich man being resurrected, experiencing the 7 vial plagues, dying, being resurrected again, dying again.  This would not be the "second death" but the third.

[Wingnut]

 

It is during the 5th and 6th seals that the 7 trumpets fall.

 

IMHO, Rev. 9-14 aren't as much chronological as they are almost simultaneous.  Trumpets could come in rapid succession or occur at the same time.

Just to address this point.  For me, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials are sequential, one after the other, never concurrent.

Imagine a toilet roll which they seal the outside of it with glue so that you have to tear it off to get to the t paper.  Now imagine using paper till you get to a second seal which you have to tear through etc.  This forces an order.  Revelation talks of a scroll which is like a toilet roll, which only Christ had authority to unseal.  But you cannot get to the inside without first opening the outside seals.

This is something I confess to being adamant about.  But then I have been wrong at the top of my voice before

[8thdaypriest]

We agreed - I think, that it would NOT be just to pronounce judgment and then execute people painfully - TWICE.  That would be overkill.  Our God is not like that.  So the wicked will only be EXECUTED once.  It's either at the SC, or it's during the 8th millennium. 

My belief divides "the wicked" into TWO groups.  First:  the wicked from the first 6000 years.  They are judged and executed at the SC.  Second:  Those from "the rest of the dead" who do not choose to serve Christ as LORD.  They are destroyed at Gog/Magog. 

AFTER Gog-Magog, the two groups come back together for the Great White Throne Judgment, but they are NOT resurrected for this final review and disposition.  This is a judgment OF "the dead".  They're DEAD.  There is NOT another resurrection, for this judgment.  They "stand before God" only in the sense of the record of their works. 

The questions to be decided at this judgment are: Has God done everything divinely possible to "save" these individuals?  Was there something MORE He could have done? 

And IF God could do something more, then should any one of these individuals ever be resurrected to continue his/her life?  

At this point, they have only died physical death - not yet "the second death".  God still retains his "download" from the minds of these DEAD people.  He could resurrect them again. 

This "judgment" is for the redeemed.  The redeemed must be fully convinced of God's justice.  I do not believe that God will obliterate millions of human beings without the consent of the governed (the redeemed). 

I know - folks say that if you "believe" in God, then you ARE fully convinced of His justice.  I don't agree.  If someone you loved is NOT among "the redeemed" you may have lingering questions.  These questions MUST be answered fully.  That is what THIS SPECIAL JUDGMENT is for.  Why do you think they check the "Book of Life" one more time? 

WHEN all questions have been answered, THEN God's retained memory (what He uses to resurrect a person) is destroyed in the special "lake of fire".  What remains of these people is NOT "thrown in" alive.  DEATH is consumed - meaning everyone who IS dead - at that point. 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

"Rachel: 4.  The redeemed will be removed from this earth at the 7th trumpet.  They will not go through the last wrath plagues which are poured out WHEN the 7th trumpet sounds. 

Wingnut:  We are close here.  I believe that at the 7th trump all the righteous left on earth, as well as the righteous dead are raised (for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be saved).

I believe however that there is a few year earlier rapture at the 6th seal or "parousia" when Christ first appears at the 2nd coming.  The 6th seal  is the start of God's punishing the earth.  Up to then it was Satan bringing plagues, the 4 horsemen, Great Tribulation etc.

JoeMo: This one is a little complicated for me.  I'll have to address it in a separate post."

 

This has been of great interest to me; and my opinion has been quite fluid over the past few years.  here's where I am now (might change tomorrow):

 

The first 4 seals are the result of man's inhumanity to man. It is not until the 5th and6th seal that we begin to see overt supernatural participation in the demise of this age.

It is during the 5th and 6th seals that the 7 trumpets fall. The First trumpet announces the beginning of the final 1260 days. The first 4 trumpets are the beginning of overt demonstration of supernatural warfare taking place on the planet.  True - satan wreaks havoc on the planet during this period; but that's only because God has given him permission to do so.  The last 3 trumpets are called 3 "woes; cuz they are REALLY bad.

It is just prior to these trumpets that the 144,000 Israelites and the great multitude are "sealed"; and the two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem.  In Rev. 11; when God calls the 2 witnesses to heaven, translation or the "pre-wrath" rapture may occur.  It won't be secret.

 

IMHO, Rev. 9-14 aren't as much chronological as they are almost simultaneous.  Trumpets could come in rapid succession or occur at the same time.  Rev. 15 seems to indicate the the redeemed are already in heaven prior to the pouring out of the 7 bowls.  That would place the rapture sometime between the 4th and 6th trumpet, IMHO.  I have even considered the possibility of more than one rapture - the 144,000 first, the great multitude next; and any who would give themselves to Christ immediately before the 7 bowls.  However it happens, no one is translated prior to the last 1260 days - probably not until halfway through it.

Joe,

I believe that EVERYONE "found written in the Book" will be resurrected and then changed, or (if alive) simply changed in a moment - on the SAME DAY - the Day Christ returns in glory. 

 

 

[Wingnut]

ARE BOTH WICKED AND RIGHTEOUS RESURRECTED AT THE SECOND COMING??   

I believe they will be.  I will give my reasons.

A.  Daniel 12:1-2    "At that time ...; for the hour  is coming ... the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God ‘will repay each person according to what they have done.’ ...who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:”
    
    THIS is “the time of the dead that they should be judged”

Rachel, I know the scriptures you quote sound like events happening at the same time.  But as I read them it poses no problem that "at that time" or "the hour" or "the day of God's wrath" refer to the "day of the LORD" which is a period stretching over millennia.  God speaks like that.  A day is with the LORD as 1000 years or 2000 years.  So is an hour.  

God was speaking to folks in this day, talking about some day, hour, whatever in the future.  At his appearing to means any time after His appearing, be it immediately, 1000 years later, or 2000.  I mean even you believe the incorrigibly wicked will be judged at the 7th trump, but the 8M folk will be judged 1000 years later.  Thus judging the living and the dead at his appearing means for me those who remain and live through the 7M into the 8M, will be judged continuously like probation, followed by the dead being judged just before the lake of fire.

To add to this... every righteous person in Heb 11 was judged at his time.  Righteous Abel was judged righteous 6000 years ago and only awaits the resurrection.  Enoch was judged righteous and translated then.  Judgment has been ongoing.  Likewise for the wicked.  Judas is judged as a son of perdition.  That judgment is settled.  Cities like Sodom will come up with Capernahum in the resurrection in the 8M.  Sodomites who were utterly igorant of good or evil will find it easier to accept King Christ than the Capernahum folk who have already rejected Him once.  

There are many, MANY times and hours of judgment - its ongoing till the end.

[8thdaypriest]

Just to address this point.  For me, 7 seals, 7 trumpets, 7 vials are sequential, one after the other, never concurrent.

Imagine a toilet roll which they seal the outside of it with glue so that you have to tear it off to get to the t paper.  Now imagine using paper till you get to a second seal which you have to tear through etc.  This forces an order.  Revelation talks of a scroll which is like a toilet roll, which only Christ had authority to unseal.  But you cannot get to the inside without first opening the outside seals.

This is something I confess to being adamant about.  But then I have been wrong at the top of my voice before

IF the "scroll" given to Jesus, who then breaks the seals - is LIKE an ancient scroll, you CANNOT OPEN the scroll - or unroll it, UNTIL all of the seals are broken.  It's not a scroll, within a scroll, within a scroll.  Events happen on earth AS Jesus is breaking the seals, but the scroll does not unroll or "open" UNTIL the last seal is broken. 

I did a little research into ancient scrolls and which ones were "sealed", and with how many seal, I found that only documents considered EXTREMELY important were sealed in this manner - (such as last will and testament scrolls).

[Wingnut]

 

AFTER Gog-Magog, the two groups come back together for the Great White Throne Judgment, but they are NOT resurrected for this final review and disposition.  This is a judgment OF "the dead".  They're DEAD.  There is NOT another resurrection, for this judgment.  They "stand before God" only in the sense of the record of their works. 

After examining their record and considering them salvageable, what does God do next?  

[Wingnut]

IF the "scroll" given to Jesus, who then breaks the seals - is LIKE an ancient scroll, you CANNOT OPEN the scroll - or unroll it, UNTIL all of the seals are broken.  It's not a scroll, within a scroll, within a scroll.  Events happen on earth AS Jesus is breaking the seals, but the scroll does not unroll or "open" UNTIL the last seal is broken. 

I did a little research into ancient scrolls and which ones were "sealed", and with how many seal, I found that only documents considered EXTREMELY important were sealed in this manner - (such as last will and testament scrolls).

If you roll a scroll on to its one stick, sealing it at intervals till you get finally to its other stick, then it has to be sequential.

And a scroll by its very nature and structure is intended to be read sequentially, just like old video tapes.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Wingnut

[Wingnut]

Have you fully recovered Rachel, and were you able to go to church on Saturday?

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel, I know the scriptures you quote sound like events happening at the same time.  But as I read them it poses no problem that "at that time" or "the hour" or "the day of God's wrath" refer to the "day of the LORD" which is a period stretching over millennia.  God speaks like that.  A day is with the LORD as 1000 years or 2000 years.  So is an hour.  

God was speaking to folks in this day, talking about some day, hour, whatever in the future.  At his appearing to means any time after His appearing, be it immediately, 1000 years later, or 2000.  I mean even you believe the incorrigibly wicked will be judged at the 7th trump, but the 8M folk will be judged 1000 years later.  Thus judging the living and the dead at his appearing means for me those who remain and live through the 7M into the 8M, will be judged continuously like probation, followed by the dead being judged just before the lake of fire.

To add to this... every righteous person in Heb 11 was judged at his time.  Righteous Abel was judged righteous 6000 years ago and only awaits the resurrection.  Enoch was judged righteous and translated then.  Judgment has been ongoing.  Likewise for the wicked.  Judas is judged as a son of perdition.  That judgment is settled.  Cities like Sodom will come up with Capernahum in the resurrection in the 8M.  Sodomites who were utterly igorant of good or evil will find it easier to accept King Christ than the Capernahum folk who have already rejected Him once.  

There are many, MANY times and hours of judgment - its ongoing till the end.

I think we're talking about two different things.  The word translated "judgment" is used in two way. 

A.  There is "judgment" - in the sense of condemnation.  That can be ongoing.   

B.  as the execution of judgment - the penalty.  

Revelation 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great whore who is seated on many waters, (NRS).

This is describing what happens TO the whore, as a result of a prior judgment, but it's called "the judgment of". 

Same with the next passage.

Revelation 18:10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas, alas, the great city, Babylon, the mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come." (NRS)

It is saying, "in one hour your penalty has come".  Judgment has been executed.

[8thdaypriest]

After examining their record and considering them salvageable, what does God do next?  

God does NOT "consider them salvageable".  But the redeemed must "see" this also - fully, so they have no lingering doubts about God's justice and mercy.   

[Wingnut]

God does NOT "consider them salvageable".  But the redeemed must "see" this also - fully, so they have no lingering doubts about God's justice and mercy.   

I personally believe the redeemed will have no say in judgment.  Neither will the wicked. 

I think the redeemed will have plenty of time to ask Christ why Fred their super pastor did not rise with them at the 7th trump.  I don't believe we need to watch all of Fred's secret sordid life.

[Wingnut]

I think we're talking about two different things.  The word translated "judgment" is used in two way. 

A.  There is "judgment" - in the sense of condemnation.  That can be ongoing.   

B.  as the execution of judgment - the penalty.  

Revelation 17:1 Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the judgment of the great whore who is seated on many waters, (NRS).

This is describing what happens TO the whore, as a result of a prior judgment, but it's called "the judgment of". 

Same with the next passage.

Revelation 18:10 they will stand far off, in fear of her torment, and say, "Alas, alas, the great city, Babylon, the mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come." (NRS)

It is saying, "in one hour your penalty has come".  Judgment has been executed.

Do you believe demons can be destroyed?  We know and they know they are judged already.  They know they just await the final execution of being thrown into the lake of fire.  They also know that until that time, their lives can be made more miserable by being imprisoned in the abyss.  That is why they too follow God's rules somewhat.