Where will the redeemed spend the 7th millennium?

[JoeMo]

QUESTION:

You don't think the rare people, will be the remnant (the redeemed)?

No; I don't think that the "rare" people will be the remnant.  By the time the 7 bowls are poured out, I believe that the remnant will have been taken off of the earth (Rev. 14:14-16); because - as you say - the destruction caused by the bowls is so catastrophic.  However, as Trevor pointed out, there appears to be people left on the earth after the 7th bowl is poured out. (Rev. 16:21).

As we've discussed before, I'm pretty open and fluid on this subject.  I understand your logic; and I reserve the right to say "I was wrong"; and to change my mind.

I appreciate your response mainly to JoeMo.

I found it interesting that you mention the Trumpet judgements and then the 7 Wrath Plagues. You give the impression that all of these are future, just before or at the time of the return of Jesus.

Without spelling out the detail, I believe that the 6 Trumpets are now in the past, and also 5 of the Bowls of Wrath Plagues. I believe that we are in the midst of the 6th Bowl. The Trumpets and the Plagues are symbolic language and depict events that have occurred.

 

Trevor,

I am 100% in agreement with Rachel on this point - I'm pretty much a futurist.  For that matter, I don't believe that the 1st Seal has yet been opened.  IMHO the first Seal will have been opened when the identity of the end-time beast and/or antichrist is revealed - most likely in the Middle East, when Israel makes a 7-year pact with a gentile (probably moderate Islamic) country to save itself from destruction by Iran and/or ISIS.  In the initial 3-1/2/ years, at least 4 of the Seals will be broken - which consist of man's wrath against his fellow man - not God's wrath.   Israel and its ally will  After 3-1/2 years, this alleged ally of Israel will break the covenant and take over the Temple Mount, which will by this time have some form of a 3rd Temple.  This is when the real time of trouble occurs; because now the earth is dealing with the wrath of God.  Sometime in this last 1260 days, the 144,000 and the rest of the saved will be taken to a place of safety (possibly along with those who are resurrected. Rev. 14 appears to say that the 144,000 are there with Jesus on Mt. Zion prior to the bowls being poured out.  Then the millenium starts - whether on earth or in heaven.  After the 1,000 years, those raised in the 1st resurrection will definitely be on the earth; and the "rest of the dead" (those who never had an opportunity to learn about Jesus - whether out of ignorance or religious brainwashing) will be resurrected; and judged according to their deeds (i.e., are they going to choose satan - who has been unleashed - or God).  It is not until satan and his followers are destroyed that sin is totally eradicated, and we are ready to rule the universe as priests and kings of the Lord God Almighty.

Not saying I'm right and you're wrong; the above is just my opinion at this point in time.

Edited September 1, 2015 by JoeMo

[8thdaypriest]

It is not until satan and his followers are destroyed that sin is totally eradicated, and we are ready to rule the universe as priests and kings of the Lord God Almighty.

Not saying I'm right and you're wrong; the above is just my opinion at this point in time.

You know that I believe those redeemed "first" (at the Second Coming) will prepare (during the 7th millennium) to "rule the nations" AS "kings and priests of God and of Christ" (during the 8th millennium).   

They will teach the Law, administer justice, and share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  And then the people will CHOOSE.

[JoeMo]

You know that I believe those redeemed "first" (at the Second Coming) will prepare (during the 7th millennium) to "rule the nations" AS "kings and priests of God and of Christ" (during the 8th millennium).   

They will teach the Law, administer justice, and share the Gospel of Jesus Christ.  And then the people will CHOOSE.

... and you know that I agree with 95% of your thesis on the 8th day.  I don't disagree with the other 5%; I'm just on the fence.  

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo,

 

I am 100% in agreement with Rachel on this point - I'm pretty much a futurist.  For that matter, I don't believe that the 1st Seal has yet been opened.  IMHO the first Seal will have been opened when the identity of the end-time beast and/or antichrist is revealed - most likely in the Middle East, when Israel makes a 7-year pact with a gentile (probably moderate Islamic) country to save itself from destruction by Iran and/or ISIS.  In the initial 3-1/2/ years, at least 4 of the Seals will be broken - which consist of man's wrath against his fellow man - not God's wrath.   Israel and its ally will  After 3-1/2 years, this alleged ally of Israel will break the covenant and take over the Temple Mount, which will by this time have some form of a 3rd Temple.  This is when the real time of trouble occurs; because now the earth is dealing with the wrath of God.  Sometime in this last 1260 days, the 144,000 and the rest of the saved will be taken to a place of safety (possibly along with those who are resurrected. Rev. 14 appears to say that the 144,000 are there with Jesus on Mt. Zion prior to the bowls being poured out.  Then the millenium starts - whether on earth or in heaven.  After the 1,000 years, those raised in the 1st resurrection will definitely be on the earth; and the "rest of the dead" (those who never had an opportunity to learn about Jesus - whether out of ignorance or religious brainwashing) will be resurrected; and judged according to their deeds (i.e., are they going to choose satan - who has been unleashed - or God).  It is not until satan and his followers are destroyed that sin is totally eradicated, and we are ready to rule the universe as priests and kings of the Lord God Almighty.

Not saying I'm right and you're wrong; the above is just my opinion at this point in time.

Because of my background, present environment and what I have gradually understood from personal study, I find the above a mixture of many parts. Perhaps what I find most disturbing is the view that the antichrist will arise in the 3rd Jerusalem Temple. My understanding is that Daniel 2 lays the basis for a historical sequence, and this is taken up by Daniel 7 and 8. In Daniel 7 the Antichrist is revealed as the Papacy. Also I am unfamiliar of where you get the 7 years. My understanding of time periods in prophecy is based on the day-for-a-year concept. For example the 2300 days I understand to be primarily from BC 334-333 to AD 1967. Thus 1260 in your post is also 1260 years. Thus the subject is large, and the difference between our environments is significant.

Kind regards

Trevor

[JoeMo]

Greetings again JoeMo,

Because of my background, present environment and what I have gradually understood from personal study, I find the above a mixture of many parts. Perhaps what I find most disturbing is the view that the antichrist will arise in the 3rd Jerusalem Temple. My understanding is that Daniel 2 lays the basis for a historical sequence, and this is taken up by Daniel 7 and 8. In Daniel 7 the Antichrist is revealed as the Papacy. Also I am unfamiliar of where you get the 7 years. My understanding of time periods in prophecy is based on the day-for-a-year concept. For example the 2300 days I understand to be primarily from BC 334-333 to AD 1967. Thus 1260 in your post is also 1260 years. Thus the subject is large, and the difference between our environments is significant.

Kind regards

Trevor

Hi Trevor,

It appears that you take a much more traditional SDA viewpoint than I do.  We could have a long debate/discussion on this subject; but it has been hashed over many times on this forum.  Suffice it to say that I don't believe like you do; but that's okay.  There are many interpretations of Daniel and Revelation that can be robustly supported by scripture that take a more futurist view of these prophecies rather than just accept how people saw it 100 - 150 years ago that don't need the "day-for-year" theory; and that don't conclude that the pope is the antichrist.  One thing we probably can agree on is that we will all find out how these prophecies play out in the not-too-distant future.

Blessings to you!

[8thdaypriest]

The redeemed will be standing on the "sea of glass" before the Father's throne, as the 7 wrath plagues are poured out on the earth, rendering everything DEAD on the earth. 

After some period of "cool down" for the earth, perhaps the redeemed will return to the earth to rebuild and repair, in preparation FOR the resurrection of "the rest of the dead" at the 8th millennium. 

Perhaps the redeemed will spend the ENTIRE 7th millennium, in Heaven - the "true tabernalce".  This is my preferred scenario, BECAUSE those to be consecrated as priests (anciently - in the TYPE)  were to stay within the Tabernacle UNTIL "the 8th day".   The "8th day" would be the 8th millennium.  "With the LORD a thousand years is as a day, and a day is as a thousand years." 

The other reason why I believe the redeemed will spend the 7th millennium in the New Jerusalem, at the "place prepared" ("He has prepared for them a City.") is because the words translated "without form and void" from Hebrew to English, (describing the earth after the "great day of the Lord")  are also translated as "bottomless" or "void" or "pit" in the Septuagint.  And that's where Satan is confined during the 7th millennium.  If Satan is confined to this earth (uninhabited by humans or other life) then He would be the scapegoat, banished to the "uninhabited place". 

It is also POSSIBLE that Satan and his angels could be living on this earth, at the same time that the redeemed are living here, rebuilding etc., because they would not be subject to his power in any way. 

When the "rest of the dead" are raised (at the 8th millennium), and inhabit the "four corners of the earth" as "the nations", then Satan is - in a sense - turned loose or released, BECAUSE he would then have people to deceive. 

[8thdaypriest]

Here's the link to the book I wrote titled "The 8th Day".  You can read the whole thing - online. 

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/8thdaybook.shtml

[TrevorL]

Greetings again JoeMo,

It appears that you take a much more traditional SDA viewpoint than I do.  We could have a long debate/discussion on this subject; but it has been hashed over many times on this forum.  Suffice it to say that I don't believe like you do; but that's okay.  There are many interpretations of Daniel and Revelation that can be robustly supported by scripture that take a more futurist view of these prophecies rather than just accept how people saw it 100 - 150 years ago that don't need the "day-for-year" theory; and that don't conclude that the pope is the antichrist.  One thing we probably can agree on is that we will all find out how these prophecies play out in the not-too-distant future.

I appreciate your comment and recognise the difficulty of finding and accepting the true understanding of these things. As prophecy is "a light that shines in a dark place" it is important that we seek this.

Kind regards

Trevor

Edited September 4, 2015 by TrevorL

[8thdaypriest]

I'm transposing this post I wrote in response to Wingnut, who believes that the redeemed will spend the 7th millennium on this earth.  He has also said he believes that many will survive the 7 wrath plagues.

Hi Wingnut, 

Luv your handle.  Anyway.  From Revelation 20:5 concerning "the rest of the dead",  they "lived not again" for 1000 years.  So how can they go up to Jerusalem for the Feasts DURING the 7th millennium?  "The rest of the dead" are the "nations which are in the four corners of the earth." 

Through the OT, "the nations" were NOT Israel.  Israel will be the redeemed.  Israel is gathered in at the Second Coming.  

I think it FITS better with prophecy, to believe that Israel will become "a kingdom of priests" (Exodus 19:5; I Peter 2:5, 9, 10; Rev. 20:6).  Israel will remain "within the Tabernacle" (which is Heaven itself) until "the 8th Day" (Lev. 8:33-36).  The priestly ministry BEGINS on "the 8th Day" (Lev. Cpt 8).  The 8th Day is the 8th millennium, when "the rest of the dead" are raised. 

The LORD's plan for Israel from the beginning, was that they would teach His Law, and His way, to the nations.  I believe the LORD's plan and purpose for Israel redeemed, will become reality at the 8th millennium - NOT during the 7th millennium. 

The "nations" will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, and will "go up to the House of the LORD" to learn His ways (Isa. 2, Micah 4). 

Wingnut,

You may never have seriously considered these prophecies coming to pass during the 8th millennium.  PLEASE.  Read my book "The 8th Day".  It is posted at my website.  Pray about it. 

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/8thdaybook.shtml

As I'm sure you already know, today IS the Feast of the 8th Day.  I so long for the appointed times in the Kingdom, when we will all "go up" to Jerusalem, to see the LORD, and friends, and family. 

Blessings, Rachel

 

 

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[8thdaypriest]

Rachel wrote:

Hi Wingnut, 

Luv your handle.  Anyway.  From Revelation 20:5 concerning "the rest of the dead",  they "lived not again" for 1000 years.  So how can they go up to Jerusalem for the Feasts DURING the 7th millennium?  "The rest of the dead" are the "nations which are in the four corners of the earth." 

 

Wingnut responded:

Hi Rachel

Below I have posted Zechariah 14.  At Christ's second coming, after the battle of Armageddon, His feet stand on the mount of Olives (vs 4).  Verse 9 says that He (Christ) will be king over all the earth during the millennium.  Verse 16 says they keep the Feast during the Millennium.  Where is there any hint that this is NOT at His second coming?  Why would anyone think that this describes after the Millennium?  There are people around the globe who have survived the last 7 vial plagues of Revelation, and they are the seed who multiply as mortals throughout the Millennium.

The rest of the dead who have lived through past societies which have never heard the one and only name whereby they might be saved, are resurrected from the dead at the end of the Millennium as Rev 20:5 states.

I do not know if it is from verse 11 that Ellen figured that all people would be destroyed at His second coming.  But the rest of this chapter clearly shows that there is a remnant left alive at His second coming.  Only SDA's of all folks who believe in the second coming, believe in an uninhabited earth during the Millennium.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 9. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 11. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 16. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

[8thdaypriest]

Rachel wrote:

Hi Wingnut, 

Luv your handle.  Anyway.  From Revelation 20:5 concerning "the rest of the dead",  they "lived not again" for 1000 years.  So how can they go up to Jerusalem for the Feasts DURING the 7th millennium?  "The rest of the dead" are the "nations which are in the four corners of the earth." 

 

Wingnut responded:

Hi Rachel

Below I have posted Zechariah 14.  At Christ's second coming, after the battle of Armageddon, His feet stand on the mount of Olives (vs 4).  Verse 9 says that He (Christ) will be king over all the earth during the millennium.  Verse 16 says they keep the Feast during the Millennium.  Where is there any hint that this is NOT at His second coming?  Why would anyone think that this describes after the Millennium?  There are people around the globe who have survived the last 7 vial plagues of Revelation, and they are the seed who multiply as mortals throughout the Millennium.

The rest of the dead who have lived through past societies which have never heard the one and only name whereby they might be saved, are resurrected from the dead at the end of the Millennium as Rev 20:5 states.

I do not know if it is from verse 11 that Ellen figured that all people would be destroyed at His second coming.  But the rest of this chapter clearly shows that there is a remnant left alive at His second coming.  Only SDA's of all folks who believe in the second coming, believe in an uninhabited earth during the Millennium.

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 4. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

9 9. And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 11. And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.

16 16. And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.

Zechariah 14 COULD be a dual prophecy.  After all, Jerusalem has been destroyed many times, and will be destroyed again.  I personally believe that Jerusalem will be "the great whore" of Revelation 19, and she WILL fall when the 10 kings "burn her with fire". 

Verse 15, with the plague on horses, camels, and mules, doesn't sound like something the LORD would do.  So I don't think this is speaking about the Gog/magog Battle AFTER the 1000 years.  I do believe it is speaking of the fall of Jerusalem, attacked by "the nations" 10 kings. 

"The family of Egypt" is a metaphor for the "mixed multitude".  There was a mixed multitude when Nehemiah led the captives back to the land from Babylon.  And I believe "the rest of the dead" will constitute another "mixed multitude". 

I think we agree, there will be an attempted rebellion against the rule of Christ, just before the Gog/Magog Battle - which takes place during the 8th millennium. 

Ezekiel describes a 7 month clean up after the Gog/Magog Battle, with bones being collected and taken to a certain City set aside for this purpose. 

[Bravus]

{whisper: if EGW's endorsement of Bishop Ussher's chronology is accurate we're already almost 2 decades into the 7th millennium}

[Wingnut]

Hi All

Below I have quoted Rev 20.  The bits in blue tell me that there are peoples on earth during the millennium.  I believe Satan is locked in an abyss (this could be the bottom of the ocean or outer space - I don't know) to keep him from deceiving the nations who are living on earth under Christ's rule. Verse 3 tells me plainly that there are nations on earth whom Satan is prevented from deceiving.  It is only if you conclude that "the abyss" is on earth (which must be what Ellen believed) that one could conclude that there are no people on earth.  The abyss may be at the bottom of the ocean, in which case both Satan and people could be on earth and never the twain shall meet.  

How can one use the term "and reigned with Christ a thousand years" (vs 4) if there are no nations to rule over?  And were the disciples not promised that in the regeneration they would each rule over a tribe of Israel? (Matt 19:28).

Notice too that by the end of the millennium, the nations cover the four quarters of the earth (meaning there is no place uninhabited) and that their numbers are as "the sand of the sea".

I believe these numbers are swelled by those resurrected after the thousand years are past (vs 5).

 

And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[JoeMo]

Wingnut and Rachel,

Keep up this discussion! I'm intrigued!  I have been on the fence on whether the millennium is on earth or in heaven for quite some time.  I have believed for many years that it takes place here on earth; but in the past Rachel has presented some powerful and scripturally robust arguments that life is impossible on earth after the 7 bowls; so I feel strongly both ways, if that makes sense.

[Wingnut]

Wingnut and Rachel,

Keep up this discussion! I'm intrigued!  I have been on the fence on whether the millennium is on earth or in heaven for quite some time.  I have believed for many years that it takes place here on earth; but in the past Rachel has presented some powerful and scripturally robust arguments that life is impossible on earth after the 7 bowls; so I feel strongly both ways, if that makes sense.

Thanks Joe.

If folks want to participate in a proof, can I ask them to commit to telling me how many times AFTER Armageddon (the second coming), armies gather around Jerusalem to attack it.  We know about Armageddon, and we know that when Satan is released to deceive the nations he causes them to surround and attack Jerusalem.  Can we agree that these are the only two times Jerusalem is surrounded and attacked, viz. once at Christ's coming, and once in the 8th millennium after Satan is loosed.  If so could I please ask for a yes or an amen.  If no, could I please ask for when else Jerusalem is attacked.  Thanks.

[Wingnut]

Zechariah 14 COULD be a dual prophecy.  After all, Jerusalem has been destroyed many times, and will be destroyed again.  I personally believe that Jerusalem will be "the great whore" of Revelation 19, and she WILL fall when the 10 kings "burn her with fire". 

Verse 15, with the plague on horses, camels, and mules, doesn't sound like something the LORD would do.  So I don't think this is speaking about the Gog/magog Battle AFTER the 1000 years.  I do believe it is speaking of the fall of Jerusalem, attacked by "the nations" 10 kings. 

"The family of Egypt" is a metaphor for the "mixed multitude".  There was a mixed multitude when Nehemiah led the captives back to the land from Babylon.  And I believe "the rest of the dead" will constitute another "mixed multitude". 

I think we agree, there will be an attempted rebellion against the rule of Christ, just before the Gog/Magog Battle - which takes place during the 8th millennium. 

Ezekiel describes a 7 month clean up after the Gog/Magog Battle, with bones being collected and taken to a certain City set aside for this purpose. 

Rachel, It could be exactly as you described above, or it could be as Zech 14 describes as follows...

Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.  Its the day of the LORD (end time)

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.  Christ returns to fight at Armageddon

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.  Christ returns to the earth, not heaven.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.  Christ returns to earth with His saints.

6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.  "In that day" means its all one timeline.

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Notice that Christ is not in heaven for the millennium, but king over all the earth.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.  Notice it is "inhabited" during the millennium.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.  And men dwell on earth,

12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.  The story goes back to the actual way Christ fought mankind at Armageddon.

13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.

14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.  The reason Zechariah digressed back in time was to show how at the start of the millennium, a huge amount of wealth is brought to Armageddon.  Notice that Christ does not consume them either people or booty with fire.  Christ wants to conserve and use the wealth of the nations.

15 And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague. Yes Rachel, God is like that to animals (Exodus plagues), because look how He caused human's eyes to vaporise in their sockets three verses back.

16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.  This verse means exactly what it says.  There are people left on earth during the millennium, and Christ compels them to keep His Feasts.  We need to take note.  Feasts are compulsory.

17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.  Even a nation like Egypt which has the Nile and is not dependent on rain, will be forced to obey Christ.  Notice how Christ rules with a rod of iron.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.  There is an alter - could there be sacrifices, and the Ezekiel 39 temple, with Levites purified to offer offerings. Seems so.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.  Yikes - folks are sacrificing and eating meat.  

Notice how many misconceptions this one chapter dispels if we just take it to mean what it says.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Wingnut

[JoeMo]

Thanks Joe.

If folks want to participate in a proof, can I ask them to commit to telling me how many times AFTER Armageddon (the second coming), armies gather around Jerusalem to attack it.  We know about Armageddon, and we know that when Satan is released to deceive the nations he causes them to surround and attack Jerusalem.  Can we agree that these are the only two times Jerusalem is surrounded and attacked, viz. once at Christ's coming, and once in the 8th millennium after Satan is loosed.  If so could I please ask for a yes or an amen.  If no, could I please ask for when else Jerusalem is attacked.  Thanks.

I agree that these are the only two future times that Jerusalem will be surrounded and attacked where the Lord intervenes.  There could be other times where this happens and the Lord does NOT intervene.  I am reluctant to say that Jerusalem will never be destroyed (more or less) before the Lord returns.  It will most certainly be destroyed when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.

[Wingnut]

I agree that these are the only two future times that Jerusalem will be surrounded and attacked where the Lord intervenes.  There could be other times where this happens and the Lord does NOT intervene.  I am reluctant to say that Jerusalem will never be destroyed (more or less) before the Lord returns.  It will most certainly be destroyed when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.

Well put, that is what I am asking, number of times in the future where the LORD intervenes.  Thanks for the response Joe.

[Wingnut]

The plan I propose is the following...

Let us suppose that all of us agree that there are only two future divine interventions to save Jerusalem....

Then let us read where these future divine interventions are described and assign to them 2nd coming or 8th millennium status...

Then let us see if it tells us what happens to folks immediately afterwards.

I take Zech 14, Ezek 38-39, Rev 20, Rev chapters 1-19 as being places describing these divine interventions.

Maybe folks can read these chapters and assign them to 2nd coming or 8th millennium.

Maybe we can even reach a consensus.

Then let's look at what happens to people on earth immediately afterwards.  For instance if they are burying bones or burning munitions for 7 months or 7 years afterwards, then people are very much left on earth.

At the very least we are going to end up with new ideas as to what earth will be like after these divine interventions.

[Wingnut]

It was Rachel who mentioned that it took 7 months to bury the army that surrounded Jerusalem.

This sowed the idea in my mind, If I can prove that this burying takes place after Christ's second coming, then we have proved that people will be on earth during the millennium.

This 7 month burying takes place in Ezek 38-39.

As far as I know there are only 2 future divine interventions to save Jerusalem, one at the 2nd coming, one in the 8th millennium (8M).

Luckily both interventions are described in vivid detail - the second coming is Rev chapters 1-19.  The 8th millennium is described in Rev 20.

Let's see if there are distinctive features which distinguish these two divine interventions and then look at Ezek 38-39 to see which one has the burying.

We are all familiar with the 7 seals, trumpets, vials of the 2nd coming.  So I will only look at the 8M of Rev 20.  The distinctive features will be highlighted in red.

 

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. This is so important that it is in large font.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The most distinctive feature of Rev 20 is fire, which we are told, devoured Gog and Magog's army.  Also, Rev 20 seems to be making a final end of Gog, Satan, and the wicked dead.  Rev 20 seems to be a final purification of everything mortal, by fire.  Even death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the lake of fire is mentioned 3 times in Rev 20.

So let's go to Ezek 38-39 to see if it looks more like Rev 1-19 or Rev 20.  I will confess to approaching Ezek with a prejudice towards 8M because of the mention of unwalled cities dwelling in safety and Gog.  These are long chapters so I cut out all that I consider irrelevant and trust you to read it all for yourself.  Also let's remember that there is no chapter break between Ezek 38 and 39.

After reading these chapters I am convinced this has to be describing the second coming and not the 8M.  There were too many familiar Rev 1-19 references, as well as references to why God was punishing Gog - to teach future people to fear the LORD.  This punishment of Gog is an object lesson, whereas the destruction of Gog in Rev 20 shows the time for lessons is over.  

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,   I am against thee, O Gog... in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them....  This is a reference to the land of Israel today.

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land....

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses,

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, Notice this teaching aspect for future people

when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes....Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

This is the 7th vial

... shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.  This is almost identical to Rev 16:21 where great hailstones form part of the 7th vial.

23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.  Again notice that this is an object lesson for future generations.

Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, 

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee,  This contrasts with Rev 20 where all are destroyed.  Notice that by leaving some of Gog alive, we have the potential for a remnant during the 8M.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.  Again, saying that this destruction of Gog is an object lesson for future generations.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.  Thus here we see that people are left alive into the Millennium.  If this was the 8M event, only the righteous are left on earth, and everything is burnt up.  This shows everyday life continuing.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 .... Thus shall they cleanse the land.

17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.  Notice how similar this is to Rev 19:18, 21  This contrasts with 8M where they are consumed with fire

21 And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.  

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.  There is no captivity of Israel preceding the 8M event, but there is before the 2nd coming.

24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.

25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;

26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.  This is a reference to the Nation of Israel today, and Western nations in general, who because they feel so secure today, sin against the LORD.

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.  Another reference to bringing God's people out of captivity where they had been during the Great Tribulation.

29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.  These are people redeemed from captivity, on whom the LORD now pours out His Spirit.  Again it show intention on the part of God "neither will I hide..." a future of not hiding.

In conclusion, I see dozens of reasons (listed in blue above) why this has to apply to the 2nd coming, and cannot refer to the 8M.  And mortal people are around and living normally and seeking the LORD into the millennium.  I see no alternative interpretation, of Ezek 38-39.  But I look forward to any objections to my analysis.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

I agree that these are the only two future times that Jerusalem will be surrounded and attacked where the Lord intervenes.  There could be other times where this happens and the Lord does NOT intervene.  I am reluctant to say that Jerusalem will never be destroyed (more or less) before the Lord returns.  It will most certainly be destroyed when the New Jerusalem descends from heaven.

I don't believe the LORD is going to "intervene" to save Jerusalem (the great harlot) at the SC.  I think the City will burn, and will stay burned UNTIL the 8th millennium.  Just at the SC, the City called Jerusalem will be the seat of the Beast.  The citizens will be celebrating, because the "two witnesses" are dead.  I don't see much worth "saving" there. 

Now - if you're talking about Spiritual Jerusalem - the "bride of Christ" - that's not a physical place.  Those are the redeemed people of God.  And they certainly DON'T all live in the City that we today call Jerusalem. 

At the Gog/Magog Battle, I do believe that God will defend His City.  And it may actually end up within the New Jerusalem.  After all The New Jerusalem will cover ALL of the territory promised to Abraham.  The area covered by Ezekiel's Temple, OR covered by the Jerusalem of the 8th millennium wouldn't take up much room. 

[8thdaypriest]

The plan I propose is the following...

Let us suppose that all of us agree that there are only two future divine interventions to save Jerusalem....

I don't agree that God will save literal physical Jerusalem - TWO times - in the future.  Only ONCE.

I do believe He will save spiritual Jerusalem.  Those are His own redeemed Israel - His bride. 

[8thdaypriest]

The plan I propose is the following...

Let us suppose that all of us agree that there are only two future divine interventions to save Jerusalem....

Then let us read where these future divine interventions are described and assign to them 2nd coming or 8th millennium status...

Then let us see if it tells us what happens to folks immediately afterwards.

I take Zech 14, Ezek 38-39, Rev 20, Rev chapters 1-19 as being places describing these divine interventions.

Maybe folks can read these chapters and assign them to 2nd coming or 8th millennium.

Maybe we can even reach a consensus.

Then let's look at what happens to people on earth immediately afterwards.  For instance if they are burying bones or burning munitions for 7 months or 7 years afterwards, then people are very much left on earth.

At the very least we are going to end up with new ideas as to what earth will be like after these divine interventions.

I'm just thinking about the folks who (you theorize) "survive the wrath plagues". 

Are they the wicked?  So that would mean the wicked survive the last plagues, and live on to cause more trouble, during the 7th millennium.  Nope.  Can't agree with that either. 

Maybe they are all ignorant of God and His Son.  But how are you gonna get 100% ignorant people, as the only ones surviving the last plagues. 

You see why the logistics of this doesn't seem possible. 

I personally believe those who survive the wrath plagues, will be the redeemed, BECAUSE they are removed from the planet BEFORE those plagues are poured out.  Now - where they spend the 7th millennium could be open to debate. 

There's no one to save.  No evangelism during the 7th millennium.  Anciently during the 7th (Sabbatical) year, nothing was sown, and nothing harvested.  The "land" was to "rest". 

Cleaning up the mess of dead bodies for 7 years doesn't seem much like "rest".  Governing masses of people - "nations in the four corners of the earth) doesn't seem like much rest.  I more like the idea of a thousand years in the New Jerusalem, learning all the "ways of God", asking questions, visiting with ancestors who walked with God, preparing to serve as priests of God and of Christ - at the 8th day. 

The repairs and rebuilding don't begin UNTIL redeemed Israel is "returned to the land".  So - WHEN are they "returned to the land".  (That did NOT happen in 1948.  Those people did not believe in Christ.  80% today believe in NO GOD at all.  They are secular.  And you're telling me that God will defend them.  Don't think so....)

 

[8thdaypriest]

 

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Satan goes out to deceive, and the ones who ARE deceived BECAUSE they have refused the Spirit of Christ, join His army. 

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are ("were thrown" at the SC - better translation), and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Rachel's note:  The great white throne judgment FOLLOWS AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle. 

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The most distinctive feature of Rev 20 is fire, which we are told, devoured Gog and Magog's army.  Also, Rev 20 seems to be making a final end of Gog, Satan, and the wicked dead.  Rev 20 seems to be a final purification of everything mortal, by fire.  Even death and hell are thrown into the lake of fire.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the lake of fire is mentioned 3 times in Rev 20.

So let's go to Ezek 38-39 to see if it looks more like Rev 1-19 or Rev 20.  I will confess to approaching Ezek with a prejudice towards 8M because of the mention of unwalled cities dwelling in safety and Gog.  These are long chapters so I cut out all that I consider irrelevant and trust you to read it all for yourself.  Also let's remember that there is no chapter break between Ezek 38 and 39.

Rachel comments:  Jesus said there would be NO PEACE until He comes to "deliver peace on the earth", therefore Ezekiel's description does not FIT pre-second coming Israel. 

After reading these chapters I am convinced this has to be describing the second coming and not the 8M.  There were too many familiar Rev 1-19 references, as well as references to why God was punishing Gog - to teach future people to fear the LORD.  This punishment of Gog is an object lesson, whereas the destruction of Gog in Rev 20 shows the time for lessons is over.  

Rachel comments:  I'd say the OT prophecy was WRITTEN to teach the people NOT to rebel against God.  And to tell them that God will WIN. 

And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,   I am against thee, O Gog... in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them....  This is a reference to the land of Israel today.

Rachel comments: The current STATE of Israel today ARE NOT GOD'S people.  They are a COUNTERFEIT, which Satan has created, to be used to "deceive if possible the very elect".  80% and more are secular.  They don't even believe in God - at all, much less in Christ.  The state of Israel today, censors any Christian material, preventing it's entrance into the state.  They censor email, and website access.  I know this!!  

11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,

12 To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land....

15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses,

16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, Notice this teaching aspect for future people

Rachel comments:  Those resurrected at the 8th millennium, need to see God's glory and power in order to truly "know" Him.  This is about revealing Himself to His redeemed people. 

when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes....Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

This is the 7th vial

... shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.  This is almost identical to Rev 16:21 where great hailstones form part of the 7th vial.

23 Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.  Again notice that this is an object lesson for future generations.

Rachel comments:  "for future generation"  - really?  You believe the folks who "survive the plagues" will procreate? 

Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, 

2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee,  This contrasts with Rev 20 where all are destroyed.  Notice that by leaving some of Gog alive, we have the potential for a remnant during the 8M.

4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.

5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.  Again, saying that this destruction of Gog is an object lesson for future generations.

9 And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

10 So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord GOD.  Thus here we see that people are left alive into the Millennium.  If this was the 8M event, only the righteous are left on earth, and everything is burnt up.  This shows everyday life continuing.

12 And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they may cleanse the land.

13 .... Thus shall they cleanse the land.

Rachel comments:  I'm just thinking - if the Gog/Magog Army is =2 the Army of the Beast - then perhaps they are destroyed at the SC,   BUT Israel does not come BACK to clean things up for 1000 years.  It is the "house of Israel" that is doing the clean up. 

[8thdaypriest]

Wingnut,

I only got through part of your Ezekiel 38-39.  I had to change some of your coloring, because the only two colors that stand out are blue and red.  No disrespect to your ideas. 

I don't see scavenger birds or beasts in the New Earth.  I do see them consuming those left dead at the SC. 

You mentioned "future generations" more than once.  Do you BELIEVE that folks who survive the final 7 wrath plagues will go on to procreate? 

Another thought:  What about a dual prophecy, with application at the SC, and final full-fillment during the 8th millennium?  Not all features must apply to BOTH.

 

Edited October 9, 2015 by 8thdaypriest