Where will the redeemed spend the 7th millennium?

[8thdaypriest]

Have you fully recovered Rachel, and were you able to go to church on Saturday?

I sent you a personal message.  I'm doing much better. 

[8thdaypriest]

Do you believe demons can be destroyed?  We know and they know they are judged already.  They know they just await the final execution of being thrown into the lake of fire.  They also know that until that time, their lives can be made more miserable by being imprisoned in the abyss.  That is why they too follow God's rules somewhat.

ONLY God "has immortality".    Satan and his angels will be "thrown alive into the lake of fire" at Gog/Magog.  Humans judged terminally rebellious/wicked are DEAD, when DEATH is thrown into the lake of fire.  They are NOT thrown in - ALIVE.

[Wingnut]

ONLY God "has immortality".    Satan and his angels will be "thrown alive into the lake of fire" at Gog/Magog.  Humans judged terminally rebellious/wicked are DEAD, when DEATH is thrown into the lake of fire.  They are NOT thrown in - ALIVE.

The rich man (who fed Lazarus crumbs) who enjoyed this life seemed pretty alive as he was about to be burned up.

[Wingnut]

ONLY God "has immortality".    Satan and his angels will be "thrown alive into the lake of fire" at Gog/Magog.  Humans judged terminally rebellious/wicked are DEAD, when DEATH is thrown into the lake of fire.  They are NOT thrown in - ALIVE.

This is something we agree upon, that spirit beings can die.

[8thdaypriest]

In the order of Rev 20

 

9  and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city:(1) and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 (2)And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

11 

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 (4) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 (3)And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So (1) Gog/Magog army or the wicked alive in the 8M destroyed with fire

Immediately followed by (2) Satan destroyed by fire

Immediately followed by the incorrigibly wicked resurrected, given their sentence and being swallowed up by a river of molten lava called the lake of fire.

Which at the same time this sea of lava consumes every grave and ends death (4)  3 and 4 are simultaneous.

I believe the above is perfectly described in Luke's parable of Lazarus and the rich man.  This is not so much a parable as a description.

This true description shows a quick judgment (maybe time for a few sentences, followed by being overrun by lava.

This parable does not show the rich man being resurrected, experiencing the 7 vial plagues, dying, being resurrected again, dying again.  This would not be the "second death" but the third.

Wiingnut,

I just don't believe the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus has anything to do with the CONDITION of man in death, or the CONDITION of men who are punished.  How could someone overflowed by molten lava, carry on a dialog, begging Father Abraham to send someone back to warn his five brother, who are still living.  I cannot base my view - concerning the final "lake of fire" on this parable.  It was - after all - a parable. 

Matthew 13:34  “Jesus spoke all these things to the crowd in parables; he did not say anything to them without using a parable.” (NIV)  His listeners understood that a parable was not to be taken literally. 

    Christ was predicting the hardness of the Jewish leaders (represented by the rich man and his brothers).  They won’t be convinced, even if “one rose from the dead”.  And - true to the parable, the leaders were not convinced after Lazarus and then Christ Himself “rose from the dead.”  

    “Father Abraham, please send someone to warn my five brothers,” the rich Jew pleaded.
    Judah (father of the Jews) did indeed have five full-blood brothers.  They were all sons of Leah. Their names were Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar and Zebulun (Genesis 29-30).

    And Annas - the Roman appointed high priest, had five sons, all of whom served as the high priest.  Annas also had one son-in-law, Caiaphas, who would certainly qualify as the "rich man" of the parable.   It’s no wonder they killed Him, with parables like that. 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

I personally believe the redeemed will have no say in judgment.  Neither will the wicked. 

I think the redeemed will have plenty of time to ask Christ why Fred their super pastor did not rise with them at the 7th trump.  I don't believe we need to watch all of Fred's secret sordid life.

What then are the "books" examined at this judgment, and WHO is looking in to them? 

Would you tell me again, when do you see this judgment taking place? 

I'm gonna take a break now.  Neck is getting stiff.  Blessings.  Rachel

[Wingnut]

Why I believe the saints will be removed by Christ at the 6th seal as well as at the 7th trump.

Here is the short version.

I have laid Matt 24 side by side with Rev. and they are parallel accounts up till the 6th seal when Matt 24 goes silent.

For good reason.  Because that answered the question about the end of the age FOR HIS AUDIENCE.

For the saints, the age ends at the 6th trump.

Or in Christ's words, "BUT FOR THE ELECT those days will be shortened".  Not for the wicked.  They have to suffer through the 7th seal, which comprises 7 trumpets, the last trumpet comprises 7 vials.  This all lasts an extra few years of suffering on earth, for those with the mark.

I believe the one taken, the other left is a secret event, unlike the lightning shining from E to W 7th trump event when the dead in Christ rise, followed by converts still on earth converted by the 2 witnesses who preach up till just before the 7th trump.

Here then are the parallels between Matt 24 and Rev. as I see them.

 

what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. = First seal, white horse.

And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: = Second seal, red horse.

and there shall be famines, = Third seal, black horse

and pestilences, = Fourth seal, pale horse

 

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. = Fifth seal

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. = when the saints flee to the mountains, hoping it not on a Sabbath, to escape persecution.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.  

It is at this point that God raptures the saints away to heaven, thus for the elect, those days end (are shortened).

They see the sun turn to black and the moon to blood, the heaven depart as a scroll as Christ comes for them.  The heathen fear these signs, but for the elect it is a sign of blessed relief from persecution and martyrdom.

The whole of Rev 7 is about the sealing away of his chosen 144000 and an innumerable multitude.

Because they are sealed away in heaven (raptured), far from harm, Christ ends Matt 24 here.

 

[Wingnut]

 

This has been of great interest to me; and my opinion has been quite fluid over the past few years.  here's where I am now (might change tomorrow):

 

The first 4 seals are the result of man's inhumanity to man. It is not until the 5th and6th seal that we begin to see overt supernatural participation in the demise of this age.

True

 

It is during the 5th and 6th seals that the 7 trumpets fall.

 

I believe the 7th seal consists of and constitutes the 7 trumpets.

 

 

 

The First trumpet announces the beginning of the final 1260 days.

You may be correct here.  I don't have a good handle on the 1260, 1290 and 1335 day story.

 

 

The first 4 trumpets are the beginning of overt demonstration of supernatural warfare taking place on the planet.  True - satan wreaks havoc on the planet during this period; but that's only because God has given him permission to do so.

True, this is supernatural warfare just as God defeated Egypt's gods at the exodus.   Trumpes are blown by angels of God in heaven showing, as you say, God in control.   Trumpet  1 =. fire, hail, blood burning 1/3 vegetation, 2 = meteorite falls on sea turning 1/3 to blood   3 =  Wormwood, another meteorite turns 1/3 rivers to blood 4 = more meteorites turns atmosphere smokey.

 

I understand most plagues to be of meteorite origin.

 

 

 The last 3 trumpets are called 3 "woes; cuz they are REALLY bad.

True

It is just prior to these trumpets that the 144,000 Israelites and the great multitude are "sealed"; and the two witnesses prophesy in Jerusalem.  In Rev. 11; when God calls the 2 witnesses to heaven, translation or the "pre-wrath" rapture may occur.  It won't be secret.

The 2 witnesses seem to be resurrected just before the 7th trump sounds, and seemingly just before the 7th trump when the righteous are raised, which I suppose one could call a pre-wrath rapture of sorts.

 

 

IMHO, Rev. 9-14 aren't as much chronological as they are almost simultaneous.  Trumpets could come in rapid succession or occur at the same time.  Rev. 15 seems to indicate the the redeemed are already in heaven prior to the pouring out of the 7 bowls.  That would place the rapture sometime between the 4th and 6th trumpet, IMHO.  I have even considered the possibility of more than one rapture - the 144,000 first, the great multitude next; and any who would give themselves to Christ immediately before the 7 bowls.  However it happens, no one is translated prior to the last 1260 days - probably not until halfway through it.

I do believe that the sealing of Rev 7 is the sealing away or locking away of the saints in heaven.  This is at the 6th seal.  This suggests to me as being when the rapture occurs.  I see the 144000 Israelites and innumerable Gentile Christians are described as "these are they which came out of great tribulation" (Rev 7:14).  I take the 5th seal as the Great Tribulation or time of martyrdom of those refusing the mark of the Beast.  I am not sure if they come out of tribulation dead or alive..

[JoeMo]

I believe the one taken, the other left is a secret event, unlike the lightning shining from E to W 7th trump event when the dead in Christ rise, followed by converts still on earth converted by the 2 witnesses who preach up till just before the 7th trump.

Most people get this analogy backwards - they think the one "taken" is the one who is raptured; when it's actually just the opposite.

"...and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."  (Matt. 24:39-41)

Who was "taken" in this analogy?  The ones who perished - not the ones who were saved!  This is confirmed in 1Thes. 4:17:

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Taking these 2 scriptures in context, it appears that those who are "left" are the saved.

 

[Wingnut]

Most people get this analogy backwards - they think the one "taken" is the one who is raptured; when it's actually just the opposite.

"...and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."  (Matt. 24:39-41)

Who was "taken" in this analogy?  The ones who perished - not the ones who were saved!  This is confirmed in 1Thes. 4:17:

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Taking these 2 scriptures in context, it appears that those who are "left" are the saved.

 

The question then becomes, where are the wicked taken?

From the story, they are left on earth.

I feel the analogy with Noah and the flood is the unexpectedness and suddenness of it.  All analogies and parables make ONE point, and we fall when we want it to make more comparisons.

This is a secret, unannounced taking away, which contrasts with the 7th trump one which is described as follows...

Matthew 24:27 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be

And if we were to look at the flood, were not the righteous sealed away in a capsule till the trouble was over, just as those raptured will be?

 

Edited October 12, 2015 by Wingnut

[JoeMo]

The question then becomes, where are the wicked taken?

 

This is a secret, unannounced taking away, which contrasts with the 7th trump one which is described as follows...

Matthew 24:27 | View whole chapter | See verse in context

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be

And if we were to look at the flood, were not the righteous sealed away in a capsule till the trouble was over, just as those raptured will be?

 

In asnwer to your question, the wicked are taken away in death, while the saved are protected (sealed away) either temporarily away from the planet or under the wings of a protecting God.  Were not the Hebrews protected  in Goshen from the worst of the Egyptian Plagues?

Concerining your interpretation of Matt. 24:27, I don't see how lightning flashing from the east to the west can be considered secret and unannounced.  Yes, the Lord comes like a thief in the night; but those who are looking for Him will be aware of the season of His coming. His coming will be sudden, but the impact of His coming will be anything but secret.

[Wingnut]

In asnwer to your question, the wicked are taken away in death, while the saved are protected (sealed away) either temporarily away from the planet or under the wings of a protecting God.  Were not the Hebrews protected  in Goshen from the worst of the Egyptian Plagues?

Concerining your interpretation of Matt. 24:27, I don't see how lightning flashing from the east to the west can be considered secret and unannounced.  Yes, the Lord comes like a thief in the night; but those who are looking for Him will be aware of the season of His coming. His coming will be sudden, but the impact of His coming will be anything but secret.

The plagues of Egypt were local. How do you think God will protect SDA members around the world from debris falling from space etc. for years, and from the Man of Sin who is trying to kill them?

[8thdaypriest]

Most people get this analogy backwards - they think the one "taken" is the one who is raptured; when it's actually just the opposite.

"...and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left."  (Matt. 24:39-41)

Who was "taken" in this analogy?  The ones who perished - not the ones who were saved!  This is confirmed in 1Thes. 4:17:

"After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

Taking these 2 scriptures in context, it appears that those who are "left" are the saved.

 

In the passage from 1 Thess.,  those who are resurrected will constitute by FAR the larger part.  That would mean the LARGER part of the saved are NOT "LEFT".  

    “One is taken and the other left” (Lk 17:26-37)  .  Yes - but where are they left?       
        They are left where “vultures gather” (v.34-37).

The “harvest is the end of the age.”  
               After the harvest is gathered into the LORD's barn, the fields are burned - not left for another seven years (Matt. 13:39).

It all depends on which group the verse, or passage is focused on.   

 

[8thdaypriest]

Wingnut,

You say the "saints" are "sealed away" in heaven, before the trumpet plagues happen on earth.  WHEN do you see them coming back to earth, and what do they do when they return?  Does Christ return with them?  Do they - at that time - begin to serve as priests to govern and teach "the nations" (the folks you say survived the plagues)? 

 

[8thdaypriest]

"His tail drew a THIRD of the stars of heaven."  The repeating THIRD, is a clue to who is behind the terrible trumpet plagues. 

I believe six of the TRUMPET events, are Satan's plagues (1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3) - part of his masterpiece of deception, to make folks THINK those are the 7 last plagues.  I believe Satan will make his appearance in a rebuilt Temple, on the Mount at Jerusalem.  The world will worship him. 

It is likely that the Ark of the Covenant will be recovered, and placed in that Temple.  When Satan places his hand on that Ark, and claims that He is Christ and that He can change that Law - THAT will be the moment when He crosses the line.  Just like the Feast of Belshazzar, using vessels from the Jerusalem Temple.  Satan will - at that moment - be weighed in the balances, and his kingdom will be "taken from him" and given to Christ, in the heavenly judgment scene described in Daniel 7:9-10. 

[Wingnut]

In the passage from 1 Thess.,  those who are resurrected will constitute by FAR the larger part.  That would mean the LARGER part of the saved are NOT "LEFT".  

    “One is taken and the other left” (Lk 17:26-37)  .  Yes - but where are they left?       
        They are left where “vultures gather” (v.34-37).

The “harvest is the end of the age.”  
               After the harvest is gathered into the LORD's barn, the fields are burned - not left for another seven years (Matt. 13:39).

It all depends on which group the verse, or passage is focused on.   

 

Just looking at the Gk "flood came and took...(Gk Strongs 142 = airo)" Matt 24:39 word implies lifting up like air.

"two in the field: the one shall be taken...(G3880) Matt 24: 40) word  = "paralambano" to take to oneself.

First thing worth noting is that in English we think both are "taking" but the Gk says nothing of the kind.

Second, "paralambano" makes sense in that Christ is taking His people to Himself in a rapture.

As for the parallel account in Luke 17, where do they (whoever they are) get taken?

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together"

I have never seen this till this very second but this is what I feel it is saying...

"it does not matter wheresoever the person is, thither (Gk1563 ekei - "to that place", there) [they will] like eagles be gathered together".

This is such a literal description of the saint being raptured up into the air as eagles.

[Wingnut]

Wingnut,

You say the "saints" are "sealed away" in heaven, before the trumpet plagues happen on earth.  WHEN do you see them coming back to earth, and what do they do when they return?  Does Christ return with them?  Do they - at that time - begin to serve as priests to govern and teach "the nations" (the folks you say survived the plagues)? 

 

I do say they are sealed away by a rapture at the 6th seal, before the trumpets.  The 6th seal is "the sign of the son of man coming in the clouds with great glory".

Like the SDA's I believe the dead are raised at the last trump, the asleep raptured saints along with Enoch and Elijah will join them, the alive believers left on earth (new converts of the 2 witnesses) will rise to meet the Lord in the air.  Now we have all the righteous who ever lived meeting Christ in the air and these constitute the "firstfruits".  Then, departing from SDA beliefs, these remain in the air and watch the 7 last vial plagues being poured out and the last battle at Armageddon.  Then all the righteous RETURN to earth and start rebuilding it as Zech 14 says.  Thus they are on earth ruling over about 1 billion people who have not been killed by the end-time mass extinction.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Wingnut

[Wingnut]

"His tail drew a THIRD of the stars of heaven."  The repeating THIRD, is a clue to who is behind the terrible trumpet plagues. 

I believe six of the TRUMPET events, are Satan's plagues (1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3, 1/3) - part of his masterpiece of deception, to make folks THINK those are the 7 last plagues.  I believe Satan will make his appearance in a rebuilt Temple, on the Mount at Jerusalem.  The world will worship him. 

It is likely that the Ark of the Covenant will be recovered, and placed in that Temple.  When Satan places his hand on that Ark, and claims that He is Christ and that He can change that Law - THAT will be the moment when He crosses the line.  Just like the Feast of Belshazzar, using vessels from the Jerusalem Temple.  Satan will - at that moment - be weighed in the balances, and his kingdom will be "taken from him" and given to Christ, in the heavenly judgment scene described in Daniel 7:9-10. 

Wow, that is such an original piece of thinking, to say that Satan mimics the 7 last vial plagues with trumpet plagues.  They are remarkably similar.  That is a genuine compliment to you if you thought of that yourself.  I am not saying you are right since I will have to ponder that, but I admire original thinking as much as art critics admire an original painting.

[8thdaypriest]

In Rev. 19:11-14, Christ is represented as appearing on a white horse, and the "armies of heaven", clothed in fine linen, followed Him - also on white horses.  

Now - I believe this is symbolic.  This is WAR imagery.  This is Michael and the hosts of Heaven, coming to wage WAR.  At the time John wrote, the Parthians (Kings of the East) were Rome's most feared enemy, and they rode white horses.   Who knows - Jesus may actually APPEAR to the wicked as sitting on a white horse.   

A "sharp sword" goes out of His mouth.  With it He strikes "the nations".   I think "the nations" would constitute EVERYONE on earth. 

The outcome of this battle is described: 

The Angel of the LORD calls "birds" (scavengers) to a "great feast" - "the supper of the great God".  The scavengers are called to "eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses, and of those who sit on them, AND the flesh of ALL people, free and slave, both small and great." 

THAT would be everyone who is left on earth. 

The beast and false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone (which will be this earth) - which ends up "without form and void". 

"The rest" - that would be everyone who is NOT the Beast and NOT the false prophet -  "were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse.  And all the birds were filled with their flesh." 

I just don't believe that ANYONE - left on this earth - will survive the destruction of the 7 vial plagues and the last Battle with the armies of Heaven. 

And NO - I do NOT BELIEVE the "armies of heaven" refers to human beings who are suddenly transformed into spirit warriors to come back and kill what's left of mankind.  THAT is a job for holy angels, and God's 7 vial plagues - NOT human beings just barely delivered from this earth.  

 

 

[Wingnut]

 

And NO - I do NOT BELIEVE the "armies of heaven" refers to human beings who are suddenly transformed into spirit warriors to come back and kill what's left of mankind.  THAT is a job for holy angels, and God's 7 vial plagues - NOT human beings just barely delivered from this earth.  

 

 

I did not say us newly resurrected saints would be fighting.  We would be watching the angels fighting, as you say.

This idea that we need 1000 years training is unnecessary.  We have been in righteousness and obedience training all our Christian walk.  Christ just has to tell us "judge that dispute" or "solve that marriage problem" and "do it by the 613 OT laws and 1050 NT laws" - and I feel good to go.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Wingnut

[8thdaypriest]

Just looking at the Gk "flood came and took...(Gk Strongs 142 = airo)" Matt 24:39 word implies lifting up like air.

"two in the field: the one shall be taken...(G3880) Matt 24: 40) word  = "paralambano" to take to oneself.

First thing worth noting is that in English we think both are "taking" but the Gk says nothing of the kind.

Second, "paralambano" makes sense in that Christ is taking His people to Himself in a rapture.

As for the parallel account in Luke 17, where do they (whoever they are) get taken?

"Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together"

I have never seen this till this very second but this is what I feel it is saying...

"it does not matter wheresoever the person is, thither (Gk1563 ekei - "to that place", there) [they will] like eagles be gathered together".

This is such a literal description of the saint being raptured up into the air as eagles.

Revelation 19:17-21,  describes the "birds" as eating DEAD flesh.  That would make them scavengers.

Compare the NKJ and the NRS of Matt. 24:28. 

NKJ  Matthew 24:28  For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

NRS  Matthew 24:28  Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

105 aveto,j aetos {ah-et-os'}
Meaning:  1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may refer to a vulture that resembles an eagle   2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)

[Wingnut]

The Angel of the LORD calls "birds" (scavengers) to a "great feast" - "the supper of the great God".  The scavengers are called to "eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses, and of those who sit on them, AND the flesh of ALL people, free and slave, both small and great." 

 

 

Rachel, I guarantee you don't want to play that game with me, that "ALL" means "each and every" or without exception.

I will find countless uses of "all" in the Bible where "all" means "many" or "most" but not "each and every".  There is still time to recant  

[8thdaypriest]

Wow, that is such an original piece of thinking, to say that Satan mimics the 7 last vial plagues with trumpet plagues.  They are remarkably similar.  That is a genuine compliment to you if you thought of that yourself.  I am not saying you are right since I will have to ponder that, but I admire original thinking as much as art critics admire an original painting.

Thank you Wingnut.  I cannot claim any credit.  Maybe 20 years ago now, I was reading through the trumpets, and I asked out loud, LORD - "What's with the third of everything?  Does that mean something?  A voice in my mind clearly said, "His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven."  Immediately, I understood that the Trumpets are Satan's plagues. 

[Wingnut]

Revelation 19:17-21,  describes the "birds" as eating DEAD flesh.  That would make them scavengers.

Compare the NKJ and the NRS of Matt. 24:28. 

NKJ  Matthew 24:28  For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

NRS  Matthew 24:28  Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

105 aveto,j aetos {ah-et-os'}
Meaning:  1) an eagle: since eagles do not usually go in quest of carrion, this may refer to a vulture that resembles an eagle   2) an eagle as a standard (Roman Military)

There is a time and a place for vultures, but the word "aetos" means eagle, not the "vulture" which some versions use simply because they had no clue what Christ meant.  Sure in Rev 19 and throughout the end-time vultures are feasting, but that is not what Christ said in Matt 24 and Luke 17.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Wingnut

[JoeMo]

In the passage from 1 Thess.,  those who are resurrected will constitute by FAR the larger part.  That would mean the LARGER part of the saved are NOT "LEFT".    

I'm looking at it from the sense that some are taken in death and others are left alive.  The ones that were "taken away" in the time of Noah(as referred to in Matt. 24) are those who died.

The "we who are left" in 1Thess.4 refers to the ones left alive.