Adventists Exclusivness

[GayatfootofCross]

 

 

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Adventist Exclusivness – Don’t Shun, but Avoid Non-Members

 

Home → Uncategorized → Adventist Exclusivness – Don’t Shun, but Avoid Non-Members

Well-known Adventist children stories

This article explains how Seventh Day Adventists have an exclusive culture, and it is one of the most important articles on the website. This is a topic for which I cannot find much discussion, but it is extremely important when understanding the Seventh Day Adventist church. This slips through the cracks to outside members, and it is very well hidden. Adventists are not barred from talking to non-Adventists, and the mainstream church does not engage in shunning. But just because it does not shun non-members, does not mean the church is not exclusive and insular.

 How the church became insular

The SDA church has silently created a system by-which its members do not need to interact in any meaningful way with non-Adventists. This is something very unique to Adventist churches- they have removed the need to engage with non-Adventist. Below is a typical example of many mainstream members lives, from start-to-finish:

1. They are born in a Seventh Day Adventist hospital to Seventh Day Adventist parents.
2. They then go to an Adventist preschool and make Adventist-only friends.
3. They then head to an Adventist grade school and make Adventist-only friends. Alternatively if they belong to very exclusive parents they are homeschooled, and their only contact with other children is at their church.
4. They then go to an Adventist high school.
5. They then go to an Adventist university and college (and while there, most likely study to become either a nurse, a teacher of a pastor).
6. They then get a job in an Adventist business/institution. These are particularly appealing from a practical perspective, because these businesses will forcibly be closed during Sabbath hours (or if they are a hospital, it is OK because they can work during Sabbath).
7. They will then get married to an Adventist spouse, as an SDA pastor is not allowed to marry an SDA to a non-SDA.
8. They then will eventually retire in an Adventist rest home, where they will live out the rest of their days.

Not only is this a common course of life, but it is greatly encouraged. The prestigious Adventist families live their lives in this way.  From personal experience, if you don’t engage in this exclusive world you will feel left out at Adventist meeting grounds such as church, as most Adventists get to know each other at school/work. All of these places/steps (school, work, partner) are where we usually come to meet our friends and form close relationships. If you are only surrounded by Adventists, then you will inevitably just become friends with them.

Article published in Adventist Review 07/26/12 - the flagship, official Seventh Day Adventist publication/magazine

Granted, at these institutions they will encounter non-Adventists. But their relationships with these individuals tend to be very fleeting. For example, an Adventist teen might become friends with a non-Adventist teen at their high school. But inevitably their relationship is doomed to be less meaningful from the start, because not only are they discouraged to become good friends with them, but they will spend less time with them than they will with their SDA peers. This is because in their spare time, they will engage in church activities and the Adventist kids will be forced together for large periods of time on Sabbath. Because the Adventist kids spend extra time outside of them and are apart of a unique culture, they will draw closer together.

 

The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

Pathfinders in the SDA version of boy scouts/girl scouts.Look at the final message taught to the kids.

And this is how it happens; all of this is relatively innocent, but the consequences are obviously huge. And this is all incredibly mainstream, and occurs just as regularly in progressive churches as it does in conservative churches.

Adventists do not shun others

As mentioned earlier, Adventists will happily interact with non-Adventists. Nothing about the theology/beliefs require you shun someone, unlike Jehovah Witnesses, which SDA’s are unfairly compared to on a regular basis. In fact, the official church manual specifically notes that this is not to occur:

“When a person has been removed from church membership, the church should, where possible, maintain contact and manifest the spirit of friendship and love, endeavouring to win him/her back to the fold.” – Offical SDA Church Manual (p199, 17th edition)

But, just because the church does not go to such extreme lengths as shunning, does not mean the church does not purposely exclude other members in a way that is very negative and destructive. I would also like to note that the “endeavouring to win him/her back to the fold” can become very frustrating as a non-member, as all/most of your conversation with your family/friends still in the church becomes laced with pressure to return.

In part 2 of this article I will go into the two major reasons that Adventists choose to avoid non-members, but for now I will go into another major part of their insular/exclusive culture; the fact that they internally de-humanize non-members.

Many SDA's will only donate to ADRA

Adventists don’t just avoid non-members, they remove their unique identities

To the SDA church, nothing is more important than being a church member. This is because they believe the church is “chosen” and that it has “the truth”. They claim that they do not believe that SDA’s will exclusively go to heaven. This is only partially true and it is basically a white lie. They believe that, if you have not heard the SDA “truth” that you will only be judged on what you did know.

Once you hear “the truth”, you are then required to follow it. If you choose to not follow it – for whatever reason – then you are seen to be rejecting God. There are a lot of rules, and to be baptised you need to follow all of them. If you publicly break a rule, you won’t be baptised in a conservative church and if you break them while a member, many people will not consider you a “real” Adventist.

Because of their strict views on who will be saved and who will not be, it has resulted in them considering everyone but other Seventh Day Adventists as part of “The World”. They believe that “The World” is being lead by Satan. And so really – if you aren’t an Adventist, then it doesn’t really matter what your achievements are, it doesn’t matter what your personality is. Because the most important thing about you, is that you are not an Adventist, and you are going to experience an eternal death. Everyone in “The World” loses their unique identity and simply gets lumped into this group.

So not only do Adventists avoid people outside their faith, they also mentally devalue their worth. Their worth is no longer based on their achievements or their actions or their personalities, because they are simply part of “The World”. This lessens any incentive for an Adventist to get to know a non-member, because they are inherently wary of them (after all, they are under the influence of Satan). Now I will go into the two major reasons that they exclude non-members from their lives in any meaningful way.

 

Reason #1 – A Unique Social Culture

As I have mentioned, Adventists have a lot of rules, many of which greatly impact on the practicalities of their lives. I cannot begin to explain how keeping the Jewish Sabbath greatly influences your week-to-week life. And practically, not drinking an alcohol limits where you can go and it means that Adventists find ways to amuse themselves compared to the rest of the population. They also are encouraged to engage in church activities throughout the daily week, taking up a lot of their free time. So Adventists do a lot of things together, and they have their own jokes, their own favourite activities and know each other in ways that outsiders would never understand.

There are other major factors that add to this culture too. A major one is the idea of secret knowledge and a secret Adventist-only vocabulary. Take for instance the health message. While the health food laws state that you can eat certain types of meat, bringing meat to a church lunch would not be considered socially OK and people would judge you very harshly for doing so. Since most people like to include meat in their dishes, a non-Adventist attending a church lunch would not know this.

A new member might also not know this. But long-standing members know this social rule, and they also know that non-members don’t know this rule. They have secret, unspoken social rules amoungst themselves that binds them together over other people. And if someone brought meat to a church lunch, then it would become obvious that they weren’t a “good” SDA. The members would whisper to each other about the dish, and avoid talking to the person that brought it.

As already mentioned, they have a special, unique vocabulary. Take the health message again. While many Adventists eat meat, they know to not include it in their dishes for church, or to serve it to other members they invite home. Consequently, they have developed a lot of tasty vegetarian recipes that have unique ways of getting around the non-meat rule. These recipes are shared amongst Adventists and, while an Adventist would immediately recognise a particular vegetarian recipe, a non-Adventist would not. Adventist companies also produce meat substitutes that very few non-SDA’s purchase, and so these have become symbols of the SDA culture. Take this video for instance:

The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

A non-member could enjoy this video for its surface joke about husbands liking disgusting/simple food, while their wives put a lot of effort into creating nice, complex meals. But what you would miss is that it is laden with SDA jokes. It references creative vegetarian recipes that only SDA members would know such as special-K loaf and it references meat substitutes, a call-out to the SDA health message. I found this youtube comment very amusing:

The poor person noticed that grape juice was mentioned, and realised that it was deliberate, but they misinterpreted the reason it was included. It had nothing to do with communion at all; the reference to pouring grape juice is supposed to be a play on the fact that Adventists have grape juice instead of wine, which is also made of grapes, but is fermented. In reality Adventists would not usually drink grape juice at a meal (it is quite bitter) but it was included as a reference to the fact that they don’t drink alcohol.

Even as an ex-Adventist, I still watch this video and smile. I still feel that special, warm connection to Adventists; because only we get these references to the unique things that only Adventists do. For cultural reasons, Adventists stick to other Adventists, because they do the same things, have shared experiences, understand the same jokes and have their own unique vocabulary. The more you are engaged in the Adventist bubble the more unique inside-jokes you know and the harder it will be to relate to people outside of your bubble. As Adventists say, they are “in” the world but not “of” it.

In effect, when an Adventist decides to deconvert and leave, they are removing themselves from this culture. SDA members will struggle to relate to them. Since the SDA members life is the church, they can no longer share this with their friend/family member. A lot of the secret social norms are built on the basis of their unique theological beliefs too. When someone deconverts and rejects these, to the SDA member it almost acts as a rejection of their cultural and social identity. Naturally, SDA members will disconnect with non-members.

 Reason #2 – Theological conflicts

While the above is incredibly unfortunate and sad, it is not overtly malicious. Unfortunately, this reason is more directly offensive and insulting to non-believers. It should be noted that this is a lot less common among progressive circles. In most progressive churches, they practice the rules because it is apart of their social culture, and the basis for their social norms. But to a conservative member, they truly believe in following the rules and studying the Adventist literature. This is what happens as a consequence.

While Adventists do not theologically promote shunning, they do theologically encourage separating themselves from non-believers on purpose. If you sit in on a conservative Adventist youth group, you will quickly become familiar with this Bible verse:

Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? - 2 Corinthians 6:14

What fellowship can light have with darkness is a very big point here. To a lot of Adventists, they see a theological reason to not have close relationships with non-members. Now, a lot of denominations use this verse to great effect – so what makes Adventists unique? The uniqueness comes from their strict view of what darkness is. For plenty of other reasons, most other churches have a less narrow view of what constitutes “darkness”. To Adventists, darkness is quite simply “The World”. It is anyone who is not an Adventist.

Adventists pastors will marry two non-Adventists, or two Adventists. But they will not mix the two, because it goes against SDA theology to do so. SDA’s are only allowed to marry other SDA’s. This idea is also theologically applied to a lot of other relationships too. It is applied to close friendships, and close business relationships. For a fascinating insight into regular SDA’s discussing the issue of marrying a non-SDA to an SDA, click here. You’ll notice that some say they wouldn’t even attend the wedding of a close family member if it broke the SDA bonds.

A common line you will hear from Sabbath School teachers to youth is this; “we aren’t saying you can’t have friends that aren’t Adventists. But think very carefully about it. Those friends are apart of The World. You will be influenced by the people you associate with. Be wary of missionary dating/friendship building, because while you will influence them, they will influence you too. Satan is very persuasive, most people are part of The World.”

While my parents let me go to non-SDA schools and make non-SDA friends, they always tried to get me to attend youth groups and would regularly remind me to be “wary” of my non-SDA friends. They would talk with me about my non-SDA friends, but would be a lot more eager and on their own accord ask me questions about my SDA friends, encouraging and pushing those relationships. If I had a non-member friend called Tim, they would never go “how is Tim?” Tim would just never come up in discussion. But if I had an SDA friend named Kate, they would ask me questions like ‘how is Kate? Have you spoken to her lately?” You were not banned from having non-member friends, but they were strongly discouraged.

Adults are also given this line too. But they hear it less, because if you stay in the church up to adulthood then you’ve likely only made close SDA relationships anyway. If you are born within the church, hear this attitude your entire life, and are limited in your opportunities to make non-SDA friends then you will just never get to engage with the outside world, and will be forever sceptical of it. But because the church does not have a ban on friendships/relationships outside the religion in its church manual (you won’t be excluded from church membership technically), it gets a free-pass from outsiders because no one has proof that this goes on – even though it literally happens all the time in the mainstream Seventh Day Adventist church.

In conclusion

Adventists have an insular culture and avoid non-members for the following reasons:

• They have very limited opportunities to interact with non-Adventists.
• They have unique social codes/culture/knowledge that only Adventists know and so they find it hard to relate to the rest of the world.
• They view the rest of the world with suspicion and see them as being in Satans grip.

This is why it is so scary to leave. If your whole social network is Adventist, then leaving is terrifying, because you will be:

• Excluded from your friends/family’s lives, either by necessity or by their choice.
• Lose your unique positive identity to them, because you will become part of “The World”. You will be harshly judged.
• Have trouble including them in your life, because not only will they judge your sinful life, they will also have a lot of trouble relating.

Adventists don’t shun ex-members, but they have their own ways of leaving ex-members out in the cold. For further reading you might be interested in this blog post. Please be warned, the author goes on a rather offensive rant on Adventism, but some may find it interesting.

 

[Outta Here]

Thanks for sharing. I find there to be much truth in this.

[CoAspen]

Some very valid points.

 

[CoAspen]

Prejudice

a (1) :  preconceived judgment or opinion (2) :  an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge

 

b :  an instance of such judgment or opinion

 

c :  an irrational attitude of hostility directed against an individual, a group, a race, or their supposed characteristics

I find no such attitudes in the teachings of Christ. He came to dispel such attitudes amongst the Jews which kept them from seeing the true nature of God. There are many parallels in some religions of today with that of ancient Israel. SDA's have been warned about such in the past but to some extent we still continue. I believe it is partially based on fear  rather than totally trusting in God.

[bonnie]

It seems the SDA beliefs and denomination have little to offer that is good. Interesting that if this said Catholic or Muslim or ?? then the criticism would be that it was anti and we needed to get the beam out of our own eye.

Contrary to what the author and the poster would like to imply I am very grateful that I have four sons with four SDA wives. I am pleased that somehow bumbling thru this cruel exclusive club of adventism my boys grew up to be christian SDA husbands and fathers. They never had any problems forming friendships in and outside the church.They have friends that have left the church and they maintained friendships with them. They do not badger them or try to guilt them into returning.

 

 

 

They are born in a Seventh Day Adventist hospital to Seventh Day Adventist parents.

I cannot think of one friend ,acquaintance or family member that has been born in a adventist hospital. But so what? My granddaughter was born in a Catholic hospital,does that make her a exclusive catholic.

They then go to an Adventist preschool and make Adventist-only friends

Actually there are very few adventist preschools compared to other private and state run pre-schools.

They then head to an Adventist grade school and make Adventist-only friends. Alternatively if they belong to very exclusive parents they are homeschooled, and their only contact with other children is at their church.

Maybe other parents feel the need to apologize for sending their children to our schools,I will be eternally grateful that we were able to. Home schooled children do not only have contact with other adventist children. My two grandchildren are homeschooled and most are not SDA. They interact and have many activities together. They even have sleep overs with those "others"

They then go to an Adventist high school.

 

Best thing we ever did was to send our boys to an adventist high school.In public school there were activities on fri they could not take part among other things

They then go to an Adventist university and college (and while there, most likely study to become either a nurse, a teacher of a pastor).

That is so foolish it really doesn't deserve an answer

They then get a job in an Adventist business/institution. These are particularly appealing from a practical perspective, because these businesses will forcibly be closed during Sabbath hours (or if they are a hospital, it is OK because they can work during Sabbath).

SDA's work in all types of positions. Hardly exclusively Adventist business/institution

 

They will then get married to an Adventist spouse, as an SDA pastor is not allowed to marry an SDA to a non-SDA.

I would certainly hope so. I know many don't think the biblical command to not be unequally yoked ,but biblically that still stands.

 

This is really grasping to try to find a negative. With all the family members and church members that I have known over the years that have spent their final years in a nursing home not one so far has done so in an adventist facility

 

"Adventists pastors will marry two non-Adventists, or two Adventists. But they will not mix the two, because it goes against SDA theology to do so. SDA’s are only allowed to marry other SDA’s. This idea is also theologically applied to a lot of other relationships too. It is applied to close friendships, and close business relationships. For a fascinating insight into regular SDA’s discussing the issue of marrying a non-SDA to an SDA, click here. You’ll notice that some say they wouldn’t even attend the wedding of a close family member if it broke the SDA bonds."

 

It is not adventist theology that is against a SDA marrying a non SDA. That comes from a little higher power. 

 

 

"As I have mentioned, Adventists have a lot of rules, many of which greatly impact on the practicalities of their lives. I cannot begin to explain how keeping the Jewish Sabbath greatly influences your week-to-week life. And practically, not drinking an alcohol limits where you can go and it means that Adventists find ways to amuse themselves compared to the rest of the population. They also are encouraged to engage in church activities throughout the daily week, taking up a lot of their free time. So Adventists do a lot of things together, and they have their own jokes, their own favourite activities and know each other in ways that outsiders would never understand."

 

How terrible. I would hope the seventh day Sabbath influences your day to day life.How awful that not drinking limits your drinking activities. Engaging in church activities really has to rank right up there as the cardinal sin

[phkrause]

Sounds to me like one disgruntled former Adventist!! Anyone know who wrote this article?? Personally the Sabbath does influence my life!! You know why?? Because the Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus Christ influences my life. I might not do a great job of following that influence, but if I put him at the center of it, than by extension, it most definitely should influence my life.

[GayatfootofCross]

I have a dear who was baptized into the Church over 2 years ago or so. A new born Christian loving Jesus.

He is now with drawing membership.

Cause of these very reasons and posted this on my FB wall.

Having grown up inside and outside the church, culturally, I understand.

The people in my Church do not understand this at all.

Many fine Adventist born and bred understand each other but don't do well with outsiders.

 

It is with a heavy heart I put this up.

[GayatfootofCross]

• My friend has been looking at this Blog.
• He had exposure to a dynamic on fire Sunday Church. Early up close with real Jesus Loving Christians and  was parlayed in following a close friend to the SDA Church.
• It was difficult to listen to Sabbath Keepers talking of Sunday Keepers..like they are not going to heaven.
• He put up with this... and I have not been able to defend members of my Church Mindset very well.
• I think I am used to the Church People Talk.... Coming from 'The Story of Redemption' Arc
• Everything that is put out there [ banter or debate ] is micro-scoped thru that Arc.
• Christians outside of that catch glimpses.
• It is not easy to step into others Cultural Shoes.
• And to reflect what they are saying back to them.
• Facebook has narrowed peoples Focus to the point Spiritual Abuse.
• Members in my Church who took offense with his questioning didn't look good either to him.
• Hard feelings on both sides.
• My Church see themselves as Right and new member wrooong!
• tsk tsk
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another article from same Blog he found.

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Why Seventh Day Adventists Don’t Like “The World”

 

Home → Seventh Day Adventist Culture → Why Seventh Day Adventists Don’t Like “The World”

When you leave the Seventh Day Adventist church, you will now become part of “The World”. To people leaving, I don’t need to explain to you why this is bad. It is hard to put into words, and you know/understand anyway. That is probably why you are here in the first place – it is terrifying to become part of “The World” and so you are looking for some advice on how to do this without destroying yourself in the process!

However, not all of my readers will understand this, and so here is a little bit more about “The World” and why Seventh Day Adventists do not like it.

First up; what is “The World”?

• This is a phrase that refers to all non-Adventists. It doesn’t matter what religion they are; if they are non-SDAs, then it is in reference to them.
• “The World” can also be used to describe things that SDA’s do not agree with. For instance, to most conservative SDA’s Harry Potter is part of “The World”, because it is evil.
• “The World” is inheriently evil. Let us take Mother Theresa. Most people would agree that she was an amazing woman, absolutely inspiring. Well, one reader wrote in and said he tried to donate a book about her life to his church library. The response? It was given back to him. Why? Because she was not an Adventist, and was part of “The World (even worse, she was a Catholic). It didn’t matter to the church that she dedicated her life to charity, and that she did so out of the goodness of her heart. She wasn’t an Adventists, so she was part of “The World” and not welcome in the church library.
• This is the perfect example of Adventist attitudes towards “The World”. They are not concerned with the good deeds non-Adventists do, they are not concerned with their intentions, and they are not concerned with their achievements in life. Adventists group people into two groups; Adventists and non-Adventists. The moment you are a non-Adventist, your identity is basically lost and they stop paying attention to your achievements/deeds, because you’re immediately “evil”.

There are exceptions to this:

• If you have Adventist friends and you aren’t an Adventist, don’t immediately assume that they view you as “evil”. Adventists generally have this attitude towards “The World”, but that doesn’t mean it always plays out in practical terms.
• If they are friends with you, then they do view you as an individual person. As an Adventists, I would have these attitudes towards most non-Adventists but if I met and specifically came to know a non-Adventist (even in a casual way) I was forced to see their lives for their individual parts, and forced to see that they were indeed good, great, amazing people. These people basically act as “exceptions” (but part of you is always aware that they are wordly).
• This also isn’t to say that Adventists completely paint “The World” this way. It is a difficult thing to describe. I am over-simplifying it because it is hard to exactly talk about. If you have been immersed in SDA culture/thought, then you’ll understand what I mean.

It is apart of their culture

• Adventists do not like “The World” because they are taught, from a very young age, to not like “The World”. As children, they will be told daily things such as:
  - “We are not like The World, we are different.”
  - “We have the truth, unlike The World.”
  - “We are in The World, but we are not a part of it.
  - “The World does not obey God’s commandments, like the Sabbath, but we do.”
  - “The World is disobedient to God. They are following Satan.”
  This is especially effective on children. They grow up, knowing there are two groups of people, and knowing that they are different. They reinfornce constantly, every single day, to their children this idea. As a child we would be watching TV, and my parents would casually make remarks such as “see this? That is an example of The World.“
• They assign non-Adventist ideas the phrase “worldly”. This becomes apart of the adventist vocubularly, fast. Here are some examples of how this is used in casual speech;
  - “Worldly things are evil. Satan uses them to deceive.”
  - “That TV show is worldly.”
  - “Not keeping the Sabbath is worldly.”
  - “Your non-SDA friends do worldly things that we do not do.”
  Adventists can’t help it; we hear this all the time as children, as teenagers and then as adults.

Why Adventists do not like “The World”

• Adventists are very much focused on works. When you join the church and are baptised, you are required to sign and to publically proclaim in front of the church that you accept and will follow the 28 Fundemental Beliefs. Some of these relate to ideas that you accept (such as the prophecies), but a lot of these are rules.
• The rules you agree to are very taxing. The include things such as the Sabbath (which disrupts both the Friday and Saturday), tithing 10% of all your income and sticking rigidly to health food laws. You are also under pressure to go beyond this, such as go vegan instead of just following the rules concerning meat.
• (Conservative – and some liberal) Adventists believe they are fundemental, core, to being an Adventist. If you don’t keep ONE, then you are breaking your baptist code. You can’t be an Adventist, but choose to eat pork. You have to keep it all. Anything else is “worldly” and sinful.
• To Adventists then, if you choose to break these rules, you’re basically no longer a real Adventist. And if you are not an Adventist, then you will not be saved by God. If you choose to eat pork, then you will not go to heaven. This is conservative Seventh Day Adventist theology.
• If you’re not an Adventist, then you are apart of “The World” which is, again, evil. Only Adventists are saved. There are exceptions; if someone has not heard Adventist theology/beliefs/ideas, they will be given grace by God. But once they come in contact with them, they are required to immediately take it up. So if you are an Adventist, and then flat-out reject it, for whatever reason, you have signed your death warrant. There are very few ways that Adventists can rationalize you going to heaven.

What does this mean for people that leave the church?

• When you are in the church, your family/friends are concerned with you. They are interested in your life, they celebrate your achievements and they are focused on your individual qualities.
• Once you leave and join “The World”, you basically loose your identity. It doesn’t really matter to the Adventist world if people in “The World” have an identity, because they are all destined to die anyway, because they are, in effect, all evil and rejected God. That is all that really matters, and now you have definitely joined them.

As a Seventh Day Adventist, it is very hard to even begin to truly consider other beliefs in the first place, because of how much these negative ideas are reinforced. Then, when you begin to consider these ideas, it is terrifying to consider leaving. Losing your positive, unique identity to your family and taking on this new identity is an incredibly painful, shameful and scary experience.

That is why you need to break away from Adventism exclusivism, and start making non-SDA friends, because their good thoughts about you are not conditionally based on being apart of a particular religion. You need their positive reinforcement, to counteract the horror in becoming everything the church teaches against.

 

The video cannot be shown at the moment. Please try again later.

Interesting SDA video on staying “connected”. In the video, it says a sign saying “what if everyone connected?” Yet the answer to this was that the man join an Adventist small group meeting.

Edited August 14, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[JoeMo]

In reading this thread, I see some truth on both sides of the story.  Some SDA congregations are exclusive; some are inclusive.  Some welcome non-Adventists; some make visitors feel isolated or uncomfortable.  Some visitors make those in some SDA congregations uncomfortable.

I have "church-shopped" a lot in my life.  I have been part of Sunday congregations who have been absolutely on fire for Jesus and filled with the Holy Spirit just like I have been in SDA congregations with the same Spirit.  I have been in Sunday congregation that were dead as a doornail; same experience in some SDA congregations.

What's important is not what denomination you claim as your own, but Who you claim as your own.  I believe that having a sincere relationship with Jesus is far more important than having 100% correct doctrine or perfect behavior.  When we exclude people who do not believe or behave exactly as we do, we lose a blessing; and they may miss out on salvation if we don't figure out how to include all who would come.  When people truly love and trust in Jesus, my experience is that the Holy Spirit will lead them into the truth.  But seekers need a group that accepts them where they are rather than looks down their nose at the "different" ones until they magically change into one of "us".

Sorry; my ecumenical side is showing again.

[GayatfootofCross]

It is not about shunning or avoidance.

It is always about the heart for another.

We all fall or fail regarding that.

The Inside Culture lends itself to failing or falling into the traps.

 

God bless u all

 

[Gail]

This topic came up today in conversation at work and I mentioned this thread.

The cultural phenomenon will occur within any institution (school, jail, hospital, church, office, etc). It was one of the reasons I was glad to be a homeschooling mom. We were not limited in our opportunities to socialise. People will form cliques, or comfort zones, within any such group structure.

I have always thought it to be wrong, to keep to ourselves so much. Because I work for the church, I see it all the time. I know people who have no friends outside of their church circle. For myself I would find that stifling, smothering. But the question arises- How can we be salt in the earth, and lights, if we are not among those outside our church sphere?

[Gail]

Although mingling with people of other denominations, cultures, or faiths might challenge us- what is wrong with that?

[DreamWeaver]

lol, what is this? An Encyclopedia Dramatica page? (Man... After reading this, you'd think the SDA church was Scientology 2.0!)

This is probably the second most anti-Adventist, closed-minded, generalizing article I've seen here in my short time on this site. I don't see any problem with any of the things this person is complaining about. To me it just sounds like the person who wrote this had a crappy extreme experience, left (or is leaving) the church and is now running around trying to sensationalize the fact that the SDA church is [harmlessly] peculiar when people are only trying to find a way to keep their culture alive in a world that would otherwise be harder to live in if they had no one to relate to.

I haven't even been brought up in an SDA family and this is insulting to me because I find the SDA church to be a group of very likable, gentle, open-minded people who have taught me a lot about the bible. To urge that they practically should not have a community is to want the church to shrivel and eventually cease to be. Sure, living a life like this could possibly produce some big-headed people who think only they will make it to heaven. And sure, there are some legit points here being made...but only in very specific cases! This person has no idea how the whole SDA church carries out their lives and mingles with the world in order to make friends, be decent citizens, have fun..etc.

Seems like this person just wants to eradicate the church based on a highly subjective perspective and make it much like many of the other dying, hardly recognizable denominations of the 21st century: void of identity, void of doctrinal uniqueness and lacking in the ability to be noticed in this world.

[bonnie]

Best answer is probably for the church to shrivel and eventually cease to be until the "those other" members become as perfect as those that write and post the very lengthy list of what is wrong with all but them

[LifeHiscost]

Best answer is probably for the church to shrivel and eventually cease to be until the "those other" members become as perfect as those that write and post the very lengthy list of what is wrong with all but them

One thing for sure about the continuous backbiters. At least you know the master they serve.

 

DreamWeaver

• Forgive me. I don't bite...on purpose.
•  
•  
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Posted 35 minutes ago ·

lol, what is this? An Encyclopedia Dramatica page? (Man... After reading this, you'd think the SDA church was Scientology 2.0!)

This is probably the second most anti-Adventist, closed-minded, generalizing article I've seen here in my short time on this site. I don't see any problem with any of the things this person is complaining about. To me it just sounds like the person who wrote this had a crappy extreme experience, left (or is leaving) the church and is now running around trying to sensationalize the fact that the SDA church is [harmlessly] peculiar when people are only trying to find a way to keep their culture alive in a world that would otherwise be harder to live in if they had no one to relate to.

I haven't even been brought up in an SDA family and this is insulting to me because I find the SDA church to be a group of very likable, gentle, open-minded people who have taught me a lot about the bible. To urge that they practically should not have a community is to want the church to shrivel and eventually cease to be. Sure, living a life like this could possibly produce some big-headed people who think only they will make it to heaven. And sure, there are some legit points here being made...but only in very specific cases! This person has no idea how the whole SDA church carries out their lives and mingles with the world in order to make friends, be decent citizens, have fun..etc.

Seems like this person just wants to eradicate the church based on a highly subjective perspective and make it much like many of the other dying, hardly recognizable denominations of the 21st century: void of identity, void of doctrinal uniqueness and lacking in the ability to be noticed in this world.

 

 

Godis Love!  Jesus saves! 

[CoAspen]

Hmmmmm...some are protesting too much? Instead of casting doubts about the person writing the article, carefully consider the points presented. The person feels that way so they are accurate to them. We may feel differently but that does not mean the writer is anti or close minded. Has anyone suggesting such actually talked to the person. Are we jumping to conclusions with out considering the possibility that the persons  experience is accurate?

Assumptions ab out others often gets us into trouble....more often than not.  i can speak from experience.

[DreamWeaver]

... Instead of casting doubts about the person writing the article, carefully consider the points presented. The person feels that way so they are accurate to them. We may feel differently but that does not mean the writer is anti or close minded. Has anyone suggesting such actually talked to the person. Are we jumping to conclusions with out considering the possibility that the persons  experience is accurate? ...

 

They can have their opinion...and I can have mine too. And my opinion is that this article sounds a lot like a person who doesn't like it when birds of a feather merely seek to flock together. You also just made my point with the above underlined portion of your sentence. If their experience was bad I won't discount it as something that really could have happened to them, but that does not mean that the whole SDA community needs to change just for them. That just means that they went through a lot of stuff that specifically made them feel closed in or closed out.

To me this post sounds a lot like a person who is trying to make the SDA church seem extremely disconnected from "the outside world" and that is just not true or fair to assume. This entire article is one big assumption because its as if the person is claiming to know exactly how most, if not all, SDA families function from start to finish based on their personal past experience(s). The author has taken everything that SDAs have built up just to keep the community strong and turned it into something crafted to "manipulate" folks.

I see nothing wrong about having your own businesses, hospitals, churches, schools/home schooling, after school programs, eateries, stores...or anything else that is made for and by SDAs. The only time its a problem is if someone is keeping you from walking in and out the door of those places at your own free will. And as far as I know, that doesn't seem to be the case in the community. I'm a newb to the community myself, and the way I see it, I feel free to join the church if I agree to their teachings and free to leave without fear of being pursued or harmed if I at some point do not agree with the church. Sure people will either approve if I join or disapprove if I leave. And it will also take me some time to get acquainted with the community or unlearn things if I were to leave. But that does not make the SDA unique in any way like this person is trying to imply. Just because some people in the church are immature does not be that all people are. And just because some people use the SDA resources to close themselves in and avoid interaction with non-SDAs that does not make those resources automatically bad or in need of a change.

Someone I know who was brought up in a household of non-denominational Christians has now turned into a Muslim. And guess what... they had to go through some of the same readjustments within their new religious community as well as within their disapproving family. Nothing special, that's just how religion works. There's always going to be secret lingo, new terms, community specific events/places and mannerisms specific to the beliefs that one holds.

If this person really wants to make an argument, they should make an article about how SOME PEOPLE in the church abuse the resources available to them by the church in order to remain distant from non-Adventists. But that's not how they typed their article. They typed it as though the resources themselves breed a particular kind of person.

[LifeHiscost]

I have a dear who was baptized into the Church over 2 years ago or so. A new born Christian loving Jesus.

He is now with drawing membership.

Cause of these very reasons and posted this on my FB wall.

Having grown up inside and outside the church, culturally, I understand.

The people in my Church do not understand this at all.

Many fine Adventist born and bred understand each other but don't do well with outsiders.

 

It is with a heavy heart I put this up.

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water....1 Peter 3

36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah....Matthew 24

Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
…16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 17"Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. 18"And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.....2 Cor 6

Bold theirs' LHC

18"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. 20"Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.…John 15

God is Love!  Jesus saves!        

[GayatfootofCross]

20who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water....1 Peter 3

36"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone. 37"For the coming of the Son of Man will be just like the days of Noah....Matthew 24

Do Not Be Unequally Yoked
…16Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, "I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 17"Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE," says the Lord. "AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you. 18"And I will be a father to you, And you shall be sons and daughters to Me," Says the Lord Almighty.....2 Cor 6

Bold theirs' LHC

18"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. 19"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. 20"Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master.' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.…John 15

God is Love!  Jesus saves!        

Those scriptures look Wonderful!

but don't apply to the issue.

 

we are talkin about other centerd love and it not looking like that in church

lol

not about sin

{ uhhhhhh  .... nevermind }

.

#other centered?  ? huh?????????????????????

I might  have to use sign language

 

# must be a  queer (strange) reference point to seriously put up those scriptures that feed itself Walls that the OP addresses, LifeHiscost.

 

oh boy

 

BTW hello and GBU

the Church has plenty of Scriptures to back  up wrongfully  staying away in a Convent or Church or School or even a Town with Work!

The Church uses a false theology also keep gays out of our Churches also!

just sayin.....

wrongly applied is rampant, LifeHiscost.its not just u

Edited August 15, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[bonnie]

Can you or someone explain what the correct biblical theology is on the homosexual lifestyle?

Point out what is incorrect concerning biblical theology?

Can a thief be practising his "craft" when Christ returns and not lose his salvation.?  How about if he says he really loves the Lord and God hasn't convicted him yet that his actions are a sin?

Can a person be committing adultery with his neighbors wife when Christ returns and not lose salvation? After all he/she says they love the Lord and are not convicted this is a sin. Many people have convinced themselves an open marriage is not wrong as long as both partners agree.

Can a drunkard be three sheets to the wind hanging over a bar  professing his love for the Lord when Christ returns and have eternal life.

Can a homosexual be practising that lifestyle when the Lord returns and have eternal life? Especially if he explains to the Lord that  "adventist theology" has it all wrong and he accepts Christ as his savior.He/she has never been convicted that this is wrong

I know the following is really outdated to many

 

THOSE WHO WILL FAIL TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD
"And nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it (the holy city, new Jerusalem - J.Q.), but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." (REVELATION 21:27). Paul had given a list of things which, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, he termed "unrighteous" and said that those who practice such things "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." But if one is engaged in such activity, all is not lost. There are steps to take to remedy the situation. We'll discuss that later.

According to I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11:
(1) Fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This term refers to those who engage in sexual activity which God has declared sinful. He has not declared all sexual activity. In fact, He condones and even encourages lawful sexual activity according to His design and purpose (I CORINTHIANS 7:2-4; HEBREWS 13:4). Fornication refers to sexual activity outside of the marriage relationship between a man and a woman. It would include premarital as well as extramarital sexual relationships of whatever duration from a one night stand to an ongoing affair. Such activity was rampant in first century Corinth. It is rampant today in our own society. But it matters not how commonly it is practiced, it is still unrighteous and it will keep one from entering heaven.
(2) Idolaters shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who offer to others what belongs unto God are idolaters. A person's idol might be a huge, grotesque image carved out of stone before which he bows. Or it might be his own desires. It is anything that a person adores more than God. Idolatry will keep one from entering heaven.
(3) Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Adultery seems to be more specific a term than fornication. It is usually limited to sexual unfaithfulness to a marriage partner. Adultery will keep one from entering heaven.
(4) The effeminate shall not enter the kingdom of God. When we see this word, we think of a sissy. But the word goes beyond that. It refers to one who is soft, specifically, to the passive partner in a homosexual relationship. Being effeminate will keep one from entering heaven.
(5) Homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of God. This word is used twice in the New Testament; in the text we are examining as well as I TIMOTHY 1:10. It denotes one who would take the leading role in a homosexual relationship. It is not fashionable today to suggest that such activity is unrighteous and will keep one out of the kingdom of God, but that is what the Covenant of Jesus Christ says. Practicing homosexuality will keep one from entering heaven.
(6) Thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God. There is no excuse for taking that which rightfully belongs to another. Whether its shoplifting, pilfering, short-changing or armed robbery, fraud and extortion, it is thievery. Whether the person doing the stealing is rich or poor it will still keep one from entering heaven.
(7). The covetous will not enter the kingdom of God. This has to do with having an uncontrollable desire to possess a certain thing. It motivates one into committing sin in order to satisfy greed. Coveting that which belongs to another will keep one from entering heaven.
(8) Drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Children of God have no need to cloud their perspectives nor dull their senses. We must be able to think and reason clearly. Drunkenness causes one to lose focus and rationality. Those who give themselves over to intoxication will find that it keeps them from entering heaven.
(9) Revilers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. There are many to speak boldly about things that they know little about. Many men and women of God have had to endure reproach for their faith. Not even the Son of God escaped verbal abuse. But they will not have to endure it forever because there will be no revilers in heaven.
(10) Swindlers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Seducers and smooth talkers of all kinds are included here. The religious con-man belongs to this group as well as the secular. Those who prey on others by trying to take advantage of their misfortune would also be included. Swindlers cannot take their ill-gotten goods with them when they leave this world, nor will they enter heaven.

AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU
"And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our  God." (I CORINTHIANS 6:11). The Christians at Corinth had been involved in these things before their conversions. During that time they had no hope at all of heaven. Also, any Christians returning to such practices would forfeit their eternal home with God.

 

 

Edited August 15, 2015 by bonnie

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

sounds like heaven is going to be a ghost town...

[bonnie]

So then is there one or two favorites that we can hang onto because it is to hard to give up? Or as has been said "adventist theology" is wrong on at least one of these so we can eliminate that from the list.How about the other sins listed? Can we eliminate some of them?

[CoAspen]

Just guessing, but maybe heaven will be filled with people of all kinds and types of 'ex's' that we shun now. In my mind, we are not the ones, so much, determining who will be in heaven but rather those that won't be there. Our challenge is to let God make the choice, and for us to give a true representation of our God.

I seem to remember in the NT somewhere Christ saying He didn't come to condemn but to seek and save...could be wrong but that is how I understand His mission!!

[Tom Wetmore]

In reading The Revelation of Jesus and really understanding its message for the first time not so many years ago, I was struck by the picture of the saints, those who are saved and the sense portrayed tha they were not looking around in surprise at others, amazed at how that person was there.  The humble realization was utter wonderment at realizing that they themselves are there and that it is deep gratitude only because of God's tremendous grace that they are there.  It is in that moment or supreme thankfulness that the presence of everyone else, no matter their past or the defective mess that they were only makes sense in the bright light of grace. All is forgiven.  Everything is new and restored to a sinless perfection as God had intended at Creation. What any of us was before is no longer relevant.  

[bonnie]

All very true. However that was not the question not   What any of us was before is no longer relevant.  

Does the underlined mean we can be hanging onto our favorite sins for dear life when Christ returns and  will get a wink and a nod to enter into eternal life? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 15, 2015 by bonnie