Moderators Kevin H Posted August 18, 2015 Moderators Posted August 18, 2015 Bonnie: Usually I enjoy your posts, but what an insulting post your last one was. You picture the scholars as sitting around using their imaginations to try to say that the Bible does not say what it says. Hey, are you a linguistic scholar in the ancient languages are you a historian? We are dependent of our translations on what the scholars have found. Where would we be if Tyndale just said "Let's just stick to the Vulgate" and if he was not interested in digging deeper into the word. Do we want to be fair to the text: The word structures, learning more about the words (which has only been happening in the past century and a half) the historical and geographical backgrounds. Or do we want to follow tradition and guesses as to how to translate the words. Do we want to understand and share Paul's actual thoughts or do we want to go with tradition to be the final authority on how to interpret the Bible. Do you really want to trust your eternal life to tradition? Quote
bonnie Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) Bonnie: Usually I enjoy your posts, but what an insulting post your last one was. You picture the scholars as sitting around using their imaginations to try to say that the Bible does not say what it says. Hey, are you a linguistic scholar in the ancient languages are you a historian? We are dependent of our translations on what the scholars have found. Where would we be if Tyndale just said "Let's just stick to the Vulgate" and if he was not interested in digging deeper into the word. Do we want to be fair to the text: The word structures, learning more about the words (which has only been happening in the past century and a half) the historical and geographical backgrounds. Or do we want to follow tradition and guesses as to how to translate the words. Do we want to understand and share Paul's actual thoughts or do we want to go with tradition to be the final authority on how to interpret the Bible. Do you really want to trust your eternal life to tradition? You are assuming a lot in how I picture biblical scholars. That kind of an assumption is insulting. Biblical scholars are fallible human beings. While there is much biblically we don't know and is being uncovered that is much different than God leaving issues that impacts our salvation to the slow painstaking process over the last century and half to determine right from wrong. For me this is not tradition... Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper…” -Romans 1:24-28 Anymore than the condemnation of stealing lying,adultery etc is tradition and we need to leave it to the biblical scholars to determine whether it is right or not. On this issue however there is tremendous pressure to make it the same as one man, one woman. It is either "not as bad" take your pick of sins,or maybe we have misunderstood their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. or God loves gays as well. Which of course is true. Love does not mean that which God has declared indecent acts will be accepted as long as someone says "He loves the Lord" Edited August 18, 2015 by bonnie Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
LifeHiscost Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 We have a pretty good book of instructions,one that doesn't leave us in the dark. For me,I will put my faith in what that book of instruction says rather than what someone else has to say. It seems there are those that wish to believe we can hang onto our pet sins right up till Christ returns and we will be changed at the time. Their choice,I will neither reap the benefit or pay any consequences for their choices. While my level of education does not reach that of some of those in this discussion I don't need a college degree to understand.......This plainly says when Christ returns if you are unjust you will remain that way. Christ will not force you to change. Maybe some are just to educated to believe simple statements. For me this is very plain.... sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie will not inherit eternal life. But this discussion was helpful,it did explain many things I have been puzzled by. REV 22 10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. God is Love! Jesus saves! I've heard it said that one cannot achieve Heaven and do what they want. I've settled that question for myself by asking God to fulfill His will in my life and He has never disappointed me over the years, by replacing in my own soul, desires leading to eternal life. That would include this. 20 you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back from wandering will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins....James 5 Thank God for individuals who have been willing to pray for me when I didn't have enough sense to pray for myself. 20 you can be sure that whoever brings the sinner back from wandering will save that person from death and bring about the forgiveness of many sins.....James 5:20 God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Members phkrause Posted August 18, 2015 Members Posted August 18, 2015 Gay, from what I can remember, and its been quite a number of years ago. Larry Wilson had a set of videos about trying to figure out when Jesus would return, without actually setting any dates. My SIL sent us these tapes. I thought they were very good. Also if I'm not mistaken he was once an Adventist, but am not positive!! I can ask my SIL. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
GayatfootofCross Posted August 18, 2015 Author Posted August 18, 2015 This whole story is about individuals rather than the denomination at large. I belonged to an SDA church that refused to let a Catholic nun who had recently become an SDA be a greeter because she wouldn't remove a HS broach or her ring indicating her marriage to Jesus. She eventually left the denomination because she felt that, as an ex-nun, she was under a microscope and was being held to a stricter standard than others. I have belonged to an SDA church that openly embraced gays, stoners alcoholics - whomever. That doesn't mean the church celebrated their sins; we just showed them love and acceptance. Several of them have left their sinful lifestyles behind and joined the church. Some have left cuz they weren't yet ready to fully commit to Jesus. I have been warned before (in the distant past) about distributing non-SDA material at church. Now, I don't think anything we study in our Sabbath School comes from SDA sources. Like I said before, if you don't like the SDA church you are in, find another. If you don't like the SDA denomination, find another. We are saved by the blood of Jesus Christ; not the doctrine or culture of a specific denomination. That being said, I have tried to leave Adventism behind a couple times; and I have always returned. Looking back, my problems always originated with me taking offense at an individual or an influential group of people at a given church. There is just something in a "balanced" Advent culture that is so attractive I can't leave. I understand that everyone's idea of "balance" is probably different. Nonetheless, whatever your ideal of balance is, there is probably an SDA congregation or internet ministry that caters to your sense of balance. This elderly couple are Adventists and love our Church. The man who is responsible for the Blog in the OP is ..as of right now is in process to leave our Church. Some don't believe Church members can be this evil. I wish, myself that I haven't tasted the Fruit of Good and Evil in my own Church. Thank you JoeMo! # Tree of Life is hard to find in my congregation as of now. Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
bonnie Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 (edited) I've heard it said that one cannot achieve Heaven and do what they want. I've settled that question for myself by asking God to fulfill His will in my life and He has never disappointed me over the years, by replacing in my own soul, desires leading to eternal life. That would include this. This does not seem to be true any longer. I don't quite understand a God that leaves important salvational issues to "whatever' or centuries of biblical scholars to tell us what this actually means.....their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. It isn't a question of shunning or treating anyone as less of a person than the most respected member. It spells out a consequence for certain behaviors. Adventist theology will not dictate the consequence of our actions,someone a lot smarter than biblical scholars will do so The above is not SDA theology. For some reason we can easily accept that adultery is wrong,stealing,drunkenness etc is wrong and clearly stated in the same verse it spells out the sin of homosexual behavior. But homosexual behavior is iffy as God left us hanging on that one Edited August 18, 2015 by bonnie Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Moderators Kevin H Posted August 19, 2015 Moderators Posted August 19, 2015 Bonnie: this is a topic that you are more concerned about than I am and I have appreciated your posts too much here to have friction now. I've shared what I learned from AUC and Loma Linda. I'll leave it here and move on to topics that I have more interest in and more study in. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote
bonnie Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Bonnie: this is a topic that you are more concerned about than I am and I have appreciated your posts too much here to have friction now. I've shared what I learned from AUC and Loma Linda. I'll leave it here and move on to topics that I have more interest in and more study in. A little correction to your post. The topic or the lifestyle of the gay/lesbian community is not a great concern. there were several that were co-workers of mine and they were well respected by most of us. They took their breaks with all of us,went out for breakfast following work and there wasn't any friction whatsoever. I have two friends that are lesbian and have been good friends for years. We celebrate birthdays together,frequently go out for dinner,absolutely no friction. The concern and friction comes for me when I am told the bible really doesn't mean what it says. If I believe what it says I am somehow a intolerant,self righteous hypocrite.I do get concerned with SDA members that make the bible of little importance regarding this issue,along with those that have a difficult time posting without condemning "those other guys". You know the ones,those that disagree that a gay/lesbian lifestyle is biblical. Regardless of any biblical scholar or SDA pastor or member,this says something very specific For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper…” -Romans 1:24-28 Edited August 19, 2015 by bonnie phkrause, Kevin H and B/W Photodude 3 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
LifeHiscost Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Some don't believe Church members can be this evil. I wish, myself that I haven't tasted the Fruit of Good and Evil in my own Church. 23For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past....Romans 3 37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38"Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure-- pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."…Luke 6 God is Love! Jesus saves! GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Lift Jesus up!!
GayatfootofCross Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 23For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24Yet God, with undeserved kindness, declares that we are righteous. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past....Romans 3 37"Do not judge, and you will not be judged; and do not condemn, and you will not be condemned; pardon, and you will be pardoned. 38"Give, and it will be given to you. They will pour into your lap a good measure-- pressed down, shaken together, and running over. For by your standard of measure it will be measured to you in return."…Luke 6 God is Love! Jesus saves! amen Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
LifeHiscost Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 amen Reminds me of the song, "I was lookin' back to see if you if you were lookin' back to see. You were cute as you could be, standin' lookin' back at me." LoL God is Love! Jesus saves! GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Lift Jesus up!!
JoeMo Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 This elderly couple are Adventists and love our Church. The man who is responsible for the Blog in the OP is ..as of right now is in process to leave our Church. Some don't believe Church members can be this evil. I wish, myself that I haven't tasted the Fruit of Good and Evil in my own Church. Thank you JoeMo! # Tree of Life is hard to find in my congregation as of now. That's so sad, Gay. These poor folks need to know that their salvation is secure in Jesus Christ; not in their congrgation or denomination. Quote
Moderators Kevin H Posted August 20, 2015 Moderators Posted August 20, 2015 The concern and friction comes for me when I am told the bible really doesn't mean what it says. Oh, these are scholars who say that the Bible means what it says. They are saying that we are reading more into the texts than the text is actually saying. (One of the professors was very much a traditionalist in his interpretation. He and the College President use to have their friction since the President had a liberal view and wanted the church to change it's attitude. But the professor eventually changed his view but for more conservative arguments than the president.) Quote
bonnie Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 How do you read more or less into? their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. God did not create an alternative for Adam for him to take his pick.From Genesis to Rev on the topic of marriage it is always one man,one woman. Never a buffet that you can choose what you prefer. I asked you earlier what you meant when you defined yourself as a moderate. What is a moderate SDA christian? I think we have a lot that would define themselves the same way. I know what it means to me but am really curious what it means to you and others phkrause 1 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Moderators Kevin H Posted August 20, 2015 Moderators Posted August 20, 2015 I told you I have not studied into the whole thing so I do not have all the answers. I have only shared what I have come across. I have not been convinced but I have been challenged to not be as smug on the traditional position as I used to be. I am at a place were when Jesus comes where he could offer me one of two criticisms: First I could be open to them, encourage them to at least have a discreet monogamist relationship and trust in Jesus and Jesus can criticize me of offering them a false hope and being too accepting of a sin, and quote this text to me. On the other hand I can join the evangelicals and Jerry Farwell and others on their campaign about these people and have Jesus point out to me the things that I have heard about these verses and say that I have misapplied them to something beyond what he was talking about in the Bible and that thus I pushed away many who could have trusted in him who could have been into heaven but since they felt that heaven has no room for them they did not reach out for heaven. I know that I have to risk one of these two rebukes from Jesus. And as I consider them I would rather choose hearing Jesus tell me the first rebuke rather than hearing the second. debbym, JoeMo, Gail and 1 other 4 Quote
CoAspen Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Hmmm...thanks for that perspective, most interesting and honest. GayatfootofCross 1 Quote
bonnie Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) What is a moderate SDA christian? I told you I have not studied into the whole thing so I do not have all the answers. I have only shared what I have come across. I have not been convinced but I have been challenged to not be as smug on the traditional position as I used to be. Do you believe it is smugness to have a belief concerning this issue? You have not had any problem being very certain(smug?) concerning WO. Is that considered smugness? I am at a place were when Jesus comes where he could offer me one of two criticisms: First I could be open to them, encourage them to at least have a discreet monogamist relationship and trust in Jesus and Jesus can criticize me of offering them a false hope and being too accepting of a sin, and quote this text to me. What is being open to them? Accepting their lifestyle as something approved by God? Or treating them as any other person? To avoid being thought of as smug must I pretend to be confused on the issue or believe this is one area God will wink at? On the other hand I can join the evangelicals and Jerry Farwell and others on their campaign about these people and have Jesus point out to me the things that I have heard about these verses and say that I have misapplied them to something beyond what he was talking about in the Bible and that thus I pushed away many who could have trusted in him who could have been into heaven but since they felt that heaven has no room for them they did not reach out for heaven. As there hasn't been any hint or suggestion that I believe we join the evangelicals and Jerry Farwell why are you bringing that in as that is the only other alternative? Besides,you might practise being as accurate as you and others demand of those you disagree with. Some evangelicals might be more appropriate. I know that I have to risk one of these two rebukes from Jesus. And as I consider them I would rather choose hearing Jesus tell me the first rebuke rather than hearing the second. You are only left with two options concerning this particular issue? Edited August 20, 2015 by bonnie Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
Moderators Kevin H Posted August 20, 2015 Moderators Posted August 20, 2015 Bonnie: You asked what a moderate Adventist is: Let's start with liberal and conservative. Up to the 1800s generally speaking people took for granted God's existence and that the Bible was inspired. They were either good people who accepted Christ into their lives and studied the Bible or bad people who did not. Then in the mid 1800s the theory of evolution came and was used to question God's existence. People looked of evolution in everything including literature and the Bible. They came to teach that the Bible was only ancient myths and that they were fictional. That there was no Abraham, no Moses, no David. That the Bible came from purely human sources. In response those who loved God and accepted the Bible wanted to defend against the above ideas. They began reasoning that if God was perfect than his word must be perfect (and using a Greek/Western view of perfection). They came to see the Bible as perfect in every single way. That all of the slightest details were just how it was. There were a few books written in the 1800s supporting this, then in the first decade or so of the 1900s there were a series of pamphlets called the Fundamentals that were very popular and influential. And this lead to the 1919 Bible Conference in Philadelphia. (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism) Now there was a minister who held on to the concepts of Biblical historicity, the existence of God etc. he was uncomfortable of the views of scripture that the Fundamentalists were forming. And he preached a sermon against it, supporting that the Bible was inspired but that it was the people having a subjective experience and then they wrote what they learned in their own words and their own knowledge. This sermon cost that minister his career. People hated it. One woman said that she was having an affair with this minister. It was later proved to be a lie but his career was ruined. The lady said that she wanted to protect the scriptures from his horrible approach to inspiration by lying about the affair. However, there was at least one person who liked this sermon: Her name was Ellen G. White. She took his sermon and changed it from a subjective experience to an objective experience and we find it in the forward to the Great Controversy and in selected messages. Anyway, W. W. Prescott read one of the early books on Fundamentalism. He began teaching it at Battle Creek where Stephen Haskell heard him. When Mrs. White heard about this she asked him to stop teaching and to work with her. He joined A. G. Daniels and D. M. Canright who were also excited about the ideas of the Fundamentalists. Mrs. White had them do things to her writings that they were appalled to do with their views of inspiration. Mrs. White taught them the views of that infamous sermon above (except for inspiration being objective rather than subjective). All 3 young men were in a tizzy. Finally Prescott and Daniel's gave up fundamentalism (at least towards Mrs. White, unclear if they also gave it up towards the Bible fully or partially). Canright on the other hand gave up Mrs. White and Adventism and joined the most extreme Fundamentalist religion, the Northern Baptists and became an enemy of Adventism. And if you study Canright the only reason he had for leaving the church was his staunch Fundamentalist views and how Mrs. White did not measure up to them. Our church became split on Fundamentalism. In the 1880s Elder Butler wrote a series in the review against Fundamentalism. A big part of the crisis of the 1888 General conference was that those who opposed Jones and Wagner had inspired Mrs. White quotes that supported their interpretation of scripture. Now she is telling them that her writings should not be used to resolve questions of exegesis. Now Butler opposed Jones and Wagner and had to take some time off to deal with the issues. I believe that it was only because he was an anti-fundamentalist that he was able to get through this crisis. However after a while Elder Jones, being a fundamentalists began to focus on Biblical texts that gave one picture that he saw as the infallible message of the Bible and became too tunnel vision to see balancing texts. And he was upset that Mrs. White changed from first saying that we were obligated to break Sunday laws to not to break them but give Sunday to the lord and make it a day of missionary work. How can a prophet make such a contradiction so he left. As we were entering into the 1900s Mrs. White was focused on the restructuring of the General Conference. But also made a lot of enemies over 1888 and the more accepting views of the trinity entering the church and her attacks of fundamentalism. Also she was writing letters to some ministers that I read a number of when I was at Andrews. Willie White also wrote a number of similar letters. They were critical of these ministers. They pointed out that they were using massive quotes by Mrs. White in their sermons and articles. But Mrs. White and Willie accused them of not understanding her message. That they were pushing their own message and looking for quotes from Mrs. White to give their ideas authority and to try to force their views on to the rest of the church. The followers of these ministers began to say that there were people writing letters claiming that they were Mrs. White. Or that people were going into Mrs. White's letters and putting in fraudulent writings that are getting mixed up with her real writings. As she denied this they began teaching that she had apostatized, maybe even had Jesuit spies working with her and maybe they even deceived her so that she is now teaching what the Jesuit spies are telling her to say. If not Jesuits, well at least she is getting her messages from her liberal son Willie and his friends such as Daniels and Prescott. Anyway, for what ever reason her messages were no longer from God. If you wanted to learn God's message turn to those ministers who she and Willie wrote those sharp letters to. I have to get to work now so write more later. But this is some of the history. Basically a moderate is one who believes in God, the Bible and Mrs. White, 1844, balances between the views of grace and law, and are non-fundamentalists. JoeMo, GayatfootofCross and phkrause 3 Quote
GayatfootofCross Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) I told you I have not studied into the whole thing so I do not have all the answers. I have only shared what I have come across. I have not been convinced but I have been challenged to not be as smug on the traditional position as I used to be. I am at a place were when Jesus comes where he could offer me one of two criticisms: First I could be open to them, encourage them to at least have a discreet monogamist relationship and trust in Jesus and Jesus can criticize me of offering them a false hope and being too accepting of a sin, and quote this text to me. On the other hand I can join the evangelicals and Jerry Farwell and others on their campaign about these people and have Jesus point out to me the things that I have heard about these verses and say that I have misapplied them to something beyond what he was talking about in the Bible and that thus I pushed away many who could have trusted in him who could have been into heaven but since they felt that heaven has no room for them they did not reach out for heaven. I know that I have to risk one of these two rebukes from Jesus. And as I consider them I would rather choose hearing Jesus tell me the first rebuke rather than hearing the second. Kevin. Amen! I feel the same way too... It is hard to fight the conservative narrow possibly misapplied scriptures/culture/tradition inside me that bubbles up inside me. It is easy to let that fear and self loathing AND CONDEMNATION get directed out in all kinds of ways. Instead I want to err on the side of MERCY! For GRACE to be applied for my wretched sinfulness and selfishness and ego. It therefore must be Applied to others!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus looked at all with compassion and non condemnation. ..it does not work any other way - u go by the FRUIT! ............................................... Edited August 20, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Gail and JoeMo 2 Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
Administrators Gail Posted August 20, 2015 Administrators Posted August 20, 2015 One can only make a good a judgment as the information one has... Some people can hold high standards and still attract others to see God's love. Others hand out condemnation, and, as Kevin mentioned, turn people away from even trying. It is an art to be winning, for in the end that is the way we want to be, isn't it? To win souls for God? God will do the changing if there is any to be made. Too often critical spirits destroy any desire to come to Jesus at all. GayatfootofCross and Kevin H 2 Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever.
bonnie Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) One can only make a good a judgment as the information one has... Some people can hold high standards and still attract others to see God's love. Others hand out condemnation, and, as Kevin mentioned, turn people away from even trying. It is an art to be winning, for in the end that is the way we want to be, isn't it? To win souls for God? God will do the changing if there is any to be made. Too often critical spirits destroy any desire to come to Jesus at all. Is a critical spirit a one way street? Is constantly finding fault and claiming others are less than they should be if they not share your opinion considered a critical spirit? Edited August 20, 2015 by bonnie Kevin H 1 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
bonnie Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 One can only make a good a judgment as the information one has... Some people can hold high standards and still attract others to see God's love. Others hand out condemnation, and, as Kevin mentioned, turn people away from even trying. It is an art to be winning, for in the end that is the way we want to be, isn't it? To win souls for God? God will do the changing if there is any to be made. Too often critical spirits destroy any desire to come to Jesus at all. This issue is either right or wrong. It is included in importance with other sins as depriving eternal life. Can we assume that something that important is going to be left to a maybe or??? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
LifeHiscost Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 This issue is either right or wrong. It is included in importance with other sins as depriving eternal life. Can we assume that something that important is going to be left to a maybe or??? No, however God is merciful. 7 But the end of all things is at hand; therefore be serious and watchful in your prayers. 8 And above all things have fervent love for one another, for “love will cover a multitude of sins.”[a] 9 Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. ...1 Peter 4 God is Love! Jesus saves! GayatfootofCross 1 Quote Lift Jesus up!!
GayatfootofCross Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) Bonnie: You asked what a moderate Adventist is: Let's start with liberal and conservative. Up to the 1800s generally speaking people took for granted God's existence and that the Bible was inspired. They were either good people who accepted Christ into their lives and studied the Bible or bad people who did not. Then in the mid 1800s the theory of evolution came and was used to question God's existence. People looked of evolution in everything including literature and the Bible. They came to teach that the Bible was only ancient myths and that they were fictional. That there was no Abraham, no Moses, no David. That the Bible came from purely human sources. In response those who loved God and accepted the Bible wanted to defend against the above ideas. They began reasoning that if God was perfect than his word must be perfect (and using a Greek/Western view of perfection). They came to see the Bible as perfect in every single way. That all of the slightest details were just how it was. There were a few books written in the 1800s supporting this, then in the first decade or so of the 1900s there were a series of pamphlets called the Fundamentals that were very popular and influential. And this lead to the 1919 Bible Conference in Philadelphia. (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism) Now there was a minister who held on to the concepts of Biblical historicity, the existence of God etc. he was uncomfortable of the views of scripture that the Fundamentalists were forming. And he preached a sermon against it, supporting that the Bible was inspired but that it was the people having a subjective experience and then they wrote what they learned in their own words and their own knowledge. This sermon cost that minister his career. People hated it. One woman said that she was having an affair with this minister. It was later proved to be a lie but his career was ruined. The lady said that she wanted to protect the scriptures from his horrible approach to inspiration by lying about the affair. However, there was at least one person who liked this sermon: Her name was Ellen G. White. She took his sermon and changed it from a subjective experience to an objective experience and we find it in the forward to the Great Controversy and in selected messages. Anyway, W. W. Prescott read one of the early books on Fundamentalism. He began teaching it at Battle Creek where Stephen Haskell heard him. When Mrs. White heard about this she asked him to stop teaching and to work with her. He joined A. G. Daniels and D. M. Canright who were also excited about the ideas of the Fundamentalists. Mrs. White had them do things to her writings that they were appalled to do with their views of inspiration. Mrs. White taught them the views of that infamous sermon above (except for inspiration being objective rather than subjective). All 3 young men were in a tizzy. Finally Prescott and Daniel's gave up fundamentalism (at least towards Mrs. White, unclear if they also gave it up towards the Bible fully or partially). Canright on the other hand gave up Mrs. White and Adventism and joined the most extreme Fundamentalist religion, the Northern Baptists and became an enemy of Adventism. And if you study Canright the only reason he had for leaving the church was his staunch Fundamentalist views and how Mrs. White did not measure up to them. Our church became split on Fundamentalism. In the 1880s Elder Butler wrote a series in the review against Fundamentalism. A big part of the crisis of the 1888 General conference was that those who opposed Jones and Wagner had inspired Mrs. White quotes that supported their interpretation of scripture. Now she is telling them that her writings should not be used to resolve questions of exegesis. Now Butler opposed Jones and Wagner and had to take some time off to deal with the issues. I believe that it was only because he was an anti-fundamentalist that he was able to get through this crisis. However after a while Elder Jones, being a fundamentalists began to focus on Biblical texts that gave one picture that he saw as the infallible message of the Bible and became too tunnel vision to see balancing texts. And he was upset that Mrs. White changed from first saying that we were obligated to break Sunday laws to not to break them but give Sunday to the lord and make it a day of missionary work. How can a prophet make such a contradiction so he left. As we were entering into the 1900s Mrs. White was focused on the restructuring of the General Conference. But also made a lot of enemies over 1888 and the more accepting views of the trinity entering the church and her attacks of fundamentalism. Also she was writing letters to some ministers that I read a number of when I was at Andrews. Willie White also wrote a number of similar letters. They were critical of these ministers. They pointed out that they were using massive quotes by Mrs. White in their sermons and articles. But Mrs. White and Willie accused them of not understanding her message. That they were pushing their own message and looking for quotes from Mrs. White to give their ideas authority and to try to force their views on to the rest of the church. The followers of these ministers began to say that there were people writing letters claiming that they were Mrs. White. Or that people were going into Mrs. White's letters and putting in fraudulent writings that are getting mixed up with her real writings. As she denied this they began teaching that she had apostatized, maybe even had Jesuit spies working with her and maybe they even deceived her so that she is now teaching what the Jesuit spies are telling her to say. If not Jesuits, well at least she is getting her messages from her liberal son Willie and his friends such as Daniels and Prescott. Anyway, for what ever reason her messages were no longer from God. If you wanted to learn God's message turn to those ministers who she and Willie wrote those sharp letters to. I have to get to work now so write more later. But this is some of the history. Basically a moderate is one who believes in God, the Bible and Mrs. White, 1844, balances between the views of grace and law, and are non-fundamentalists. Fascinating History! I don't think I met a non Fundamentalist till much later in Life at my Church. All were so punitive and lording over .. Hey! I ran with a Ruff crowd! I came across this book 'How to Read the Bible and Still Be a Christian: Struggling with Divine Violence from Genesis Through Revelation' by John Dominic Crossan Many Christians serve a punitive GOD and they can't be anyway else when dealing with that Elderly Couple. You see it here loud all in posts. It helps to get a New Look at God in this book ' Servant God ' http://www.amazon.com/Servant-God-Cosmic-Conflict-Trustworthiness/dp/1594100233/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1440180650&sr=1-1&keywords=servant+god This is part of the Three Angels Message. I see you have done some exploring with A different God that is the Most Beautiful Being in the Universe! #the other one? uhhh not so pretty ........................ talk about a veil being lifted! Edited August 21, 2015 by GayatfootofCross Quote For all Eternity God waited in anticipation for You to show up to give You a Message - YOUR INCLUDED !!! { a merry dance }?️? " If you tarry 'til you're better You will never come at all " .. "I Will Rise" by the late great saved Glen Campbell If your picture of God is starting to feel too good to be true, you're starting to move in the right direction. "My bounty is as boundless as the sea, My love as deep; the more I give to thee, The more I have, for both are infinite." Romeo and Juliet
bonnie Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 I don't recall anyone being "punitive in their remarks concerning this elderly couple. Some may wonder if a little more flavor was added to the retelling,just as in the remark"You see it here loud in posts" the little added flavor #the other one? uhhh not so pretty We are fortunate to have those "not like those other guys" pointing out those other guys Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman
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