Adventists Exclusivness

[Tom Wetmore]

Missing the point.  Everyone limps, stumbles, or crawls across the finish line.  It is not about hanging onto favorite sins.  It is hanging onto Jesus not matter what sins are so deeply embedded that we have no control over them.  It is not about us hanging our favorite sins.  It is that our sins hold onto us with such a deeply embedded deep grip that humanly speaking they we are hopelessly beyond fixing.  It is only a miracle of grace that gets us across the line to be changed on the other side.

If one just stops and thinks of all the memories of sin stored between their own ears, where our real deep and unalterable sinfulness really resides it is overwhelming to realize how hopeless our sinfulness really is.  We cannot erase or delete any of that from our head.  That requires a powerful miracle that changes us all in a twinkling of an eye.  Otherwise we bring it all with us. 

Edited August 15, 2015 by Tom Wetmore

[bonnie]

Just guessing, but maybe heaven will be filled with people of all kinds and types of 'ex's' that we shun now. In my mind, we are not the ones, so much, determining who will be in heaven but rather those that won't be there. Our challenge is to let God make the choice, and for us to give a true representation of our God.

I seem to remember in the NT somewhere Christ saying He didn't come to condemn but to seek and save...could be wrong but that is how I understand His mission!!

I firmly believe  that heaven will be filled with people of all kinds and types. Nor do I agree in most circumstances anyone should be shunned .

Do you think this should hold true for all? Our challenge is to let God make the choice, and for us to give a true representation of our God.

Many  and you are one that has stated more than once a version of  Matthew 7:4,5
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?

You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye
How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?
You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.

Yet when it comes to the constant sniping and criticizing  against the SDA denomination or more specifically those that don't share your more liberal mindset you are in agreement with articles and posters that dwell on the speck in the eyes of others and forget about the plank in theirs. 

I didn't ask for anyone to determine the eternal life of another.

Basically as was stated "adventist theology " is wrong on the gay issue. What about biblical theology and what it has to say concerning those that persist in their favorite sins?

God will determine those that have eternal life. Have we been given a "instruction manual" or do we all get to pick and choose the portions we don't like and the ones we do?

Edited August 15, 2015 by bonnie

[bonnie]

Missing the point.  Everyone limps, stumbles, or crawls across the finish line.  It is not about hanging onto favorite sins.  It is hanging onto Jesus not matter what sins are so deeply embedded that we have no control over them.  It is not about us hanging our favorite sins.  It is that our sins hold onto us with such a deeply embedded deep grip that humanly speaking they we are hopelessly beyond fixing.  It is only a miracle of grace that gets us across the line to be changed on the other side.

If one just stops and thinks of all the memories of sin stored between their own ears, where our real deep and unalterable sinfulness really resides it is overwhelming to realize how hopeless our sinfulness really is.  We cannot erase or delete any of that from our head.  That requires a powerful miracle that changes us all in a twinkling of an eye.  Otherwise we bring it all with us. 

 

Maybe you are right,I should be surprised but I guess I am not , the underlined does explain much that I haven't understood.  It is that our sins hold onto us with such a deeply embedded deep grip that humanly speaking they we are hopelessly beyond fixing.  It is only a miracle of grace that gets us across the line to be changed on the other side.

No one suggested we could do it on our own. 

I think for the immediate realizing the following is not true will be reassuring to many.We can have eternal life and be committing the very acts God says will deprive us of eternal life because after all we will be changed when we get across that line.Thanks for the clarification

 

THOSE WHO WILL FAIL TO ENTER THE KINGDOM OF GOD
"And nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it (the holy city, new Jerusalem - J.Q.), but only those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life." (REVELATION 21:27). Paul had given a list of things which, by the guidance of the Holy Spirit, he termed "unrighteous" and said that those who practice such things "shall not inherit the kingdom of God." But if one is engaged in such activity, all is not lost. There are steps to take to remedy the situation. We'll discuss that later.

According to I CORINTHIANS 6:9-11:
(1) Fornicators shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This term refers to those who engage in sexual activity which God has declared sinful. He has not declared all sexual activity. In fact, He condones and even encourages lawful sexual activity according to His design and purpose (I CORINTHIANS 7:2-4; HEBREWS 13:4). Fornication refers to sexual activity outside of the marriage relationship between a man and a woman. It would include premarital as well as extramarital sexual relationships of whatever duration from a one night stand to an ongoing affair. Such activity was rampant in first century Corinth. It is rampant today in our own society. But it matters not how commonly it is practiced, it is still unrighteous and it will keep one from entering heaven.
(2) Idolaters shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Those who offer to others what belongs unto God are idolaters. A person's idol might be a huge, grotesque image carved out of stone before which he bows. Or it might be his own desires. It is anything that a person adores more than God. Idolatry will keep one from entering heaven.
(3) Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Adultery seems to be more specific a term than fornication. It is usually limited to sexual unfaithfulness to a marriage partner. Adultery will keep one from entering heaven.
(4) The effeminate shall not enter the kingdom of God. When we see this word, we think of a sissy. But the word goes beyond that. It refers to one who is soft, specifically, to the passive partner in a homosexual relationship. Being effeminate will keep one from entering heaven.
(5) Homosexuals shall not enter the kingdom of God. This word is used twice in the New Testament; in the text we are examining as well as I TIMOTHY 1:10. It denotes one who would take the leading role in a homosexual relationship. It is not fashionable today to suggest that such activity is unrighteous and will keep one out of the kingdom of God, but that is what the Covenant of Jesus Christ says. Practicing homosexuality will keep one from entering heaven.
(6) Thieves shall not enter the kingdom of God. There is no excuse for taking that which rightfully belongs to another. Whether its shoplifting, pilfering, short-changing or armed robbery, fraud and extortion, it is thievery. Whether the person doing the stealing is rich or poor it will still keep one from entering heaven.
(7). The covetous will not enter the kingdom of God. This has to do with having an uncontrollable desire to possess a certain thing. It motivates one into committing sin in order to satisfy greed. Coveting that which belongs to another will keep one from entering heaven.
(8) Drunkards shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Children of God have no need to cloud their perspectives nor dull their senses. We must be able to think and reason clearly. Drunkenness causes one to lose focus and rationality. Those who give themselves over to intoxication will find that it keeps them from entering heaven.
(9) Revilers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. There are many to speak boldly about things that they know little about. Many men and women of God have had to endure reproach for their faith. Not even the Son of God escaped verbal abuse. But they will not have to endure it forever because there will be no revilers in heaven.
(10) Swindlers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Seducers and smooth talkers of all kinds are included here. The religious con-man belongs to this group as well as the secular. Those who prey on others by trying to take advantage of their misfortune would also be included. Swindlers cannot take their ill-gotten goods with them when they leave this world, nor will they enter heaven.

AND SUCH WERE SOME OF YOU
"And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our  God." (I CORINTHIANS 6:11). The Christians at Corinth had been involved in these things before their conversions. During that time they had no hope at all of heaven. Also, any Christians returning to such practices would forfeit their eternal home with God.

 

 

 

 

 

[bonnie]

Another wrong "adventist theology" simply not true

 

•  

• Philippians 4:13 I can do all this through him who …

[Tom Wetmore]

The list is derived from the question at the beginning of 1 Corinthians 6:9 - "Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?"  The list are examples to illustrate the unrighteous.  But also remember that Paul also categorically states that nobody is righteous (See Romans 3:10)  And we are also told that whatever we have in terms of righteousness is just filthy rags. That certainly seems to say that what we think might be righteous is not really.  So if we are all unrighteous, how does God populate the New Earth with only righteous people.  He has to clean up a lot of filthy rags.  He has to take those rags off our back and cloth us with righteousness that is not our own.  That has to happen for every single human that inherits the kingdom.  It is not a place just for those that have cast off the final fragments of their slightly soiled clothes.  It is a place for the the dirty dozen that get washed clean in the blood of the Lamb and then get to wear the clean robe of righteousness that he supplies.  That is the story of everyone.  Not just some.  Not just certain ones. Everyone.

The point is that nobody that inherits  the kingdom without that cleansing and clean robe of Christ's righteousness.  So everyone that he brings in will indeed be righteous and none of them will be unrighteous.  Because don't you know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God?  That is because they are all righteous through Christ.  None of them are unrighteous inside the kingdom. 

[LifeHiscost]

All very true. However that was not the question not   What any of us was before is no longer relevant.  

Does the underlined mean we can be hanging onto our favorite sins for dear life when Christ returns and  will get a wink and a nod to enter into eternal life? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm glad you asked that question, Bonnie. Here's the way I understand it, especially when it defines those who won't be excluded from their final reward in heaven.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost....Acts 2

 

13..... when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth....John 16

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/repentance.html

 

 

Question: "What is repentance and is it necessary for salvation?"

Answer: Many understand the term repentance to mean “turning from sin.” This is not the biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word repent means “to change one’s mind.” The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 declares, “I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” The full biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.

   [/quote]

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!  Shabbat Shalom!

 

[bonnie]

 

I'm glad you asked that question, Bonnie. Here's the way I understand it, especially when it defines those who won't be excluded from their final reward in heaven.

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost....Acts 2

 

13..... when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth....John 16

 

http://www.gotquestions.org/repentance.html

 

 

We have a pretty good book of instructions,one that doesn't leave us in the dark. For me,I will put my faith in what that book of instruction says rather than what someone else has to say. It seems there are those that wish to believe we can hang onto our pet sins right up till Christ returns and we will be changed at the time.  Their choice,I will neither reap the benefit or pay any consequences for their choices.

While my level of education does not reach that of some of those in this discussion I don't need a college degree to understand.......This plainly says when Christ returns if you are unjust you will remain that way. Christ will not force you to change. Maybe some are just to educated to believe simple statements. For me this is very plain....

  sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie will not inherit eternal life.

But this discussion was helpful,it did explain many things I have been puzzled by.

REV 22

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

[CoAspen]

TW,

Thanks for posting so clearly.

> So if we are all unrighteous, how does God populate the New Earth with only righteous people.  He has to clean up a lot of filthy rags.  He has to take those rags off our back and cloth us with righteousness that is not our own. <

[GayatfootofCross]

Jesus was all about breaking the cultural,theological, and social breaking down of exclusivity.

 

When we see Christians perpetuate the opposite ,,,there is no Jesus!

 

kinda scary

 

 

[Gail]

Thank you for bringing this back on topic.

[Lauralea]

I see that the OP is from a website entitled "Leaving the Seventh-day Adventist Church." Seems like it would have been more open to plainly label the source. Finding a long list of ways to criticize others does not seem to be the most effective way to arrive at truth. Personally, 2 of the 8 things about becoming insular apply to me, and one only in part. But then I am a convert- and there are a lot of us.

Of course Adventist believers will have some of the same shared experiences and do some of the same things, but I do not have friends that tell uniquely Adventist jokes.

This guy has an agenda. He gives advice on how to "deconvert" and how to deal with Adventists who keep bothering you after you do so.  So I wonder what the point is of sharing his "stuff." To prove Adventists are different?

Some of the differences he listed are values based, like the Sabbath, and some are cultural. We are supposed to have the values based differences.

If something is true and we understand it to be true, God expects us to follow it, and other believers also believe this, not merely the SDA church. Try telling a Baptist that baptism is unnecessary once you know about it and believe it to be true.

"To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

"If ye know these things, happy are ye if you do them."

The cultural differences are not so absolute. I have taught students from over 40 countries, and they do not use the fake meats, tell Adventist jokes, etc. etc. Nor are most SDAs from the US or Canada anymore.

So he lumps together cultural Adventist traditions with following Biblical things like the Sabbath.  Maybe this article is 25% true, that there is a subset of Adventists that follow unnecessary cultural traditions, but I think the author has rejected essential issues like the Sabbath along with being irritated at jargon at potlucks he used to attend. These are hardly at the same level of importance, but it has been many years since potlucks feature primarily meat analogs, and these have become far more accepted with many non Adventists eating them and are now available in practically every supermarket in the U.S.

[Gail]

Good common sense, LauraLea! And she raises a good point about crediting articles when posting them. 

[JoeMo]

I appreciated DW's take on the issue.  Yes - there are people in the SDA denomination (as well as most others) that take a Taliban/Pharisee attitude towards others and feel it is their duty to dictate their brand of morality on everyone else.  There are entire congregations that practice this.  But my experience is that there are far more congregations who are accepting and loving; at least there are groups within a congregation that are accepting and loving.

We see subgroups here on CA that fall into both camps.  There are those who seem to be offended by some of the members here who don't quite fit the traditional church mold.  There are other who welcome those different ones and encourage their participation here.  I'm OK with that.  It is differences of opinion that spark debate and conversation.

I have experienced the rejection that Gay's article discusses; and I have experienced the community that DW discusses.  I prefer to remember the good experiences and not the bad ones.  Focusing on the bad ones just nourishes a bitter root and feelings of condemnation towards both myself and those who have offended me.  Holding on to offenses (both real and imagined) is one of the biggest barriers to the kind of Christian community that God desires for His people.

[Kevin H]

Hi Bonnie: You asked some good questions which are harder to answer than they first appear: Yes, we have the "Proof Texts: that we have built our theology upon. But as you study out the context of the proof texts some difficulties come up and there is quite a bit of argument and discussion about those difficulties. I am currently at an undecided position willing to listen to both sides and do want to be fair to the texts themselves. Our texts from the Old Testament are in two contexts: One is in a context of what you can and cannot do when you come together for worship. The Biblical feasts of the land were connected with the agricultural cycle of the land. The Canaanites believed the Baal cycle where there was El, Baal and the gods of life on the one side and the Leviathan (a 7 headed sea-monster the god of chaos) and the gods of death on the other side. Baal comes as the champion of the gods of life to fight Leviathan, giving him a deadly wound in his 6th head but leviathan grabs Baal by his heel and takes him under the waters and kills him. On the third day Baal's sister/consort Anat requests to resurrect Baal. She comes down and puts his pieces together and says "Baal, Son of El, come forth; Thy Father calls Thee." and Baal rises up and goes back into battle against Leviathan and this time gets the victory. Then Baal and Anat head back to heaven. As they approach heaven the other gods of life are unaware of Baal's resurrection and victory. They are sitting in the gates by the doors with their heads bowed towards their knees in crying in grief at Baal's death. Anat cries out "Lift up your heads, O ye gods; and be ye lift up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in.!" In amazement the gods of life ask "Who is this King of glory?" and Anat replies "Baal strong and mighty, Baal mighty in battle. Lift up your heads, O ye gods; even lift them up, ye everlasting doors; and the King of glory shall come in." Over joyed by the good news the gods of life want to hear it again so again they ask "Who is this King of glory?" and Anat replies "Baal of hosts, he is the King of glory." The Canaanites saw this battle cycle around at key points in the agricultural cycle, but Baal does not always win. If he wins there would be rain and plenty of food. If he lost it would be a cycle of famine until the next cycle where hopefully Baal would win again. Canaan/Israel has the most variety of geography in a short area of anyplace else on earth. It also has the most variety of weather as weather patterns from Europe, Asia, Africa and the Arabian desert all compete over that piece of land. Dealing with this the Canaanites produced things such as Yom Kippur and Passover and feast of the first fruits etc. As time went by they developed a superstition that they could help out Baal and the gods of life in Baal's battle with leviathan by uniting life forces. They would come to the temple and make and eat breads of mixed grains, they would wear clothing of mixed textures and everyone would have sex with each other. You would have sex with your neighbor, your neighbor's brothers and sisters, parents, aunts and uncles, spouse, children and pets. And your neighbor would have sex with you, your parents, aunts uncles, spouse, children and pets. Moses is commanding the Hebrews to not do this in worshiping Yahweh. Yes they will be keeping the same holidays dealing with the agricultural cycle of the land. They would keep them very similar such as the two goats on Yom Kippur and the feast of unleavened bread I the spring, but this uniting of life forces at worship to help out Yahweh was not allowed. They were to worship and trust that Yahweh had the power to save and did not need their help. This is different than what people in say San Francisco are dealing with. The second context was that in the ancient world, and this was especially strong in Canaan (making it very unsafe for trade caravans) was they believed that if a man raped another man that he was stealing some of his life force. That meant that some of the food that would have grown in their victim's garden will now grow in the rapist's garden. That some of the flocks that would have been born to his victim's animals will now be born to the rapist's animals. That some of the children that would have been born to the victim's wife will not be born to the rapist's wife. Moses condemns this practice. Again this is different from what people in say San Francisco are dealing with. When we turn to the New Testament texts, and here I don't really understand the Greek to explain but apparently the one word translated "Homosexual" is not the usual word for that practice. That it is a specific word for the practice of men having sex with little children and should be translated as "Pedophiles" but we base our interpretation on the mis-translation. The other New Testament texts were just quotes of the above Old Testament passages and thus the context of the Old Testament passages. So there is debate as to whether to just limit the texts to their context and thus they are not dealing with what we are facing today with homosexuals, or if we should broaden the application of the text to include homosexuals. I hope this shows some of the debate. Now there are things such as the promiscuity and other aspects that has become a part of that life style which comes up against other Biblical principles.

[Kevin H]

 

Yet when it comes to the constant sniping and criticizing  against the SDA denomination or more specifically those that don't share your more liberal mindset you are in agreement with articles and posters that dwell on the speck in the eyes of others and forget about the plank in theirs. 

I didn't ask for anyone to determine the eternal life of another.

Basically as was stated "adventist theology " is wrong on the gay issue. What about biblical theology and what it has to say concerning those that persist in their favorite sins?

God will determine those that have eternal life. Have we been given a "instruction manual" or do we all get to pick and choose the portions we don't like and the ones we do?

Bonnie, you need to understand that there are different flavors of both liberal and conservative Adventism. The issue that we are finding today is that one flavor of conservative Adventism has been pushing their views as the ONLY true Adventism. These are views of pastors who when I was at Andrews I read a number of letters from Mrs. White and Willie White to these pastors telling them that they were wrong. That they were using massive quotes by Mrs. White but that they missed her message and were only using her words to try to put a divine command to force their thoughts and views on to the church. Their followers accused Mrs. White and Willie of apostasy and becoming liberal and forming a new theology and may have even become Jesuits. and that if you wanted to get God's message turn to how these preachers used Mrs. White and avoid her newer apostate writings. (Granted as time went by they just reinterpreted Mrs. White's later writings and Willie and other who they use to villainize and say that these people believed just like they do and that it was later that the problems came.)  I am a very strong Bible believing, Ellen White believing, 1844 believing Adventist, Desmond Ford critic. I consider my self moderate to conservative. But we are critical as to how this one aspect of Adventism are trying to change the church into their understanding only.

This group and the Desmond Ford people have ripped the truth between them with a ragged edge but each having approximately half the truth more or less that they are using against the other half of the truth.  I am not pushing liberal Adventism. I'm critical of how these 2 groups have split the truth between them and use their portions of the truth against the rest of the truth and try to force the rest of us to join their side. I am protesting the hijacking of my church into one of those two subgroups who want to take over.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Kevin H

[bonnie]

I really don't care how many "flavors" of adventism there are. What is the biblical flavor? You have given two fairly lengthy posts. Much of what you posted would make the average person's head explode in going to his/her bible for guidance.  My dad always cautioned my brothers and I to be wary of two groups. The ultra conservative that expects to slide into heaven on his vegeburger and the liberal who can't lose his salvation now matter how hard he tries and is so open mined his brains would fall out if he bent over. The rules and regulations that the ultra conservative believes will get them eternal life is as dangerous as the liberal that believes loudly proclaiming you love the Lord and that is really all that is required.

I am not real sure what a moderate in his religious belief is. To me,religious belief might not hold up when the going gets rough if your  belief is only moderate

As for marriage it is hard to dispute the following.....

Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?” And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, ‘for this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”   -Matthew 19:3-6 

 

Jesus is clearly defining marriage as one man,one woman. It doesn't say two men,two women,one man three women or any other "flavor" you wish to throw in there. "From the beginning would clearly cover the OT regardless of how anyone wants to spin Sodom and Gomorrah

“Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever.  For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper…” -Romans 1:24-28

Is the above only a cultural  caution?

 

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” -1 Corinthians 6:9, 10

 

Again the question in light of some stated beliefs here. Will those living as   fornicators,idolaters,  adulterers,  effeminate,  homosexuals,  thieves, the covetous,  drunkards,  revilers, swindlers

when Christ returns obtain eternal life? Or at that time will they be suddenly changed?

 

 

“Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.” -1 Corinthians 6:9, 10

 

If there is any truth to the following. It says when Christ returns those that are unjust and filthy  will remain that way. Or is this more of those ultra conservatives trying to run the church or wrong adventist theology

 

REV

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Is there any truth to the above underlined. Or does it read differently depending on what sin you want to justify

•  

10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Edited August 17, 2015 by Tom Wetmore
Removed empty quote box; formatting correction...

[GayatfootofCross]

It is with a heavy heart that I share the latest info of my friend who I mentioned on the 7th and 8th post on the 1st page.

As I said He posted the OP on my FB wall.

I have been sitting with this latest for a few days now.

Now the very elderly (he 80 something and she 70 something )couple who have reached out to him when he started coming into my Church has been banned from going to our Church for three months.

The elder man is being disciplined for sharing Non SDA approved DVD's. They have warned him before. 

I liken his stuff he shares as 8th Day Priest shares. Sabbath Keeping Advents Believers and not a call to leave the SDA Church or give tithes to another. Just differences of certain end time events.

But an Elder saw The elder guy give something to the Organist (another lifetime SDA of 70 years) and he got in trouble.

I know all parties very well.

My friend is extremely upset.

It is hard to back up a Church who believes it is their Job to lord over what people read and say to each other. It is unsustainable to boot.

We all share what kind of God we serve. Whether we know it or not.

As I said it is with a very heavy heart I share this.

I don't see any recourse.

My own dear Life Buddy is out of sorts over this. He usually is very calm and easy going. As a couple- I am the loud dramatic one.

We care deeply for this old couple. They live on the other mountain and it will be a hardship to drive down to the valley.

When you look at the inner workings of the people who make these kinds of decisions. Do we see Paul talking about cuttin out a member is as horrific as cutting of a body part or do we see people being controlling and offended rhat a church member don't agree 100 percent of everything they believe.

 

To me its a culture/self rightouse problem .. not Theological.

Jesus Himself spoke of it in Rev 3

 

This  all also makes us look more like a CULT.

 

OP reference and 7th and 8th post on 1st page.

 

God bless you all.

Pray for our Church.

We can't be going around kicking people out of Church every time people don't obey us. People heal in fellowship. Not out of it.

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[bonnie]

I wonder what the rest of the story is?  This doesn't pass the smell test

 

 

 

 

 

Now the very elderly (he 80 something and she 70 something )couple who have reached out to him when he started coming into my Church has been banned from going to our Church for three months.

The elder man is being disciplined for sharing Non SDA approved DVD's. They have warned him before. 

I liken his stuff he shares as 8th Day Priest shares. Sabbath Keeping Advents Believers and not a call to leave the SDA Church or give tithes to another. Just differences of certain end time events.

But an Elder saw The elder guy give something to the Organist (another lifetime SDA of 70 years) and he got in trouble.

[GayatfootofCross]

I will confess something about this that makes it understandable from my own selfish world.

Some people get a pang of guilt or uneasiness when they do something wrong.

Steal a work pen? Driving  over the Speed Limit. ( my buddy doesn't guilt over that one ..geeesh)! Go into Business with a person who you know is unsavory! oh Dear! Fail to Keep Sabbath perfectly on the 24! Laugh at a naughty joke. Any Lie. Fornicate or overly masticate. etc

But where I really get panged (beyond an exhaustive list) is when I am unkind or say something that hurts someone (of course i can be completely unaware and need to be told). Knowing the Kind of God I love very much and take great comfort in that kind of Grace! It makes it that much worse. I always regret something i said or should have said.

So since I go to the Church and might be alone with the  SDA Church Elder who told on the elderly guy..for a moment-I would want to say something.

And Since he is my equal and same exact age and so on... I might glare or give the Jaundiced Eye .. at best (best I can do) ..or even Worst!..... ha ha ha!  I can confront him on what the sack of ____  and the etc.

I have tons of eloquent speeches also. But whatever I say will not to a darn good thing without Jesus Sweet Spirit.

 

Thank you for listening to my Confession

I am really upset by this.

 

# i know! i know! i been thru this a hundred times and probably be thru this a hundred more

 

 

 

 

...........................

3 people at a small mountain church goooone!

Not many to begin with.

And there are only a few others we really hang on!

Are they next?

Are we?

Edited August 17, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[GayatfootofCross]

actually its 4 people.....

A grown son comes with the elderly people who was just baptized last year! ).

.....................

I am awful at editing in the time allotted

[Naomi]

 It appears that it is time for serious prayer

 

 

Edited August 17, 2015 by Naomi

[bonnie]

actually its 4 people.....

A grown son comes with the elderly people who was just baptized last year! ).

.....................

I am awful at editing in the time allotted

I still think there is much missing or maybe added to actual facts in this story.

To ban an elderly couple because they reach out to someone?  Who banned them,who guards the door? It sounds more than a little bizarre.

At one time it became necessary for our church  to ban a very disruptive member,first and only time.If you were to ask him why he had been banned it would have been a very similar story of persecution because of the narrow minded bigotry of the self righteous hypocrites that filled the church.

His version and reality were quite different

[GayatfootofCross]

 was the thing the elder guy gave to the Organist a non SDA DVD or something else?  I want to understand but it feels as though there are some missing pieces.Hi

Hi! Naomi!

GBU

I Wish I can say names but its so upsetting and maybe inappropriate to use real names. I'm sorry or the confusion.

I talk better than this. Writing is really out of my element. I'm very verbal and demonstrative and can be loud.

I know I know..hard to believe .

......................

Yes! the 80 year old elderly man gave a DVD (ummm. that elderly couple gave us the same exact DVD a few weeks ago) to the Organist (who told me and my Bud she loves us like her brother who died of AIDS and the local SDA Minister did not come and see him cause of his sin.. We are very Special in her eyes))

Larry Wilson stuff.

https://www.wake-up.org/

U want details I will give you details!

Our Church Elder was suspicious cause as I've said, he has been warned!  So the Elder ,being no dummy,found out what the DVD was!

I read 8 books by Larry Wilson a number of years ago. Was the sin on Who turned me on to it? Or mine for reading One or Eight.

I mean we talking about sin? RIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT!

No one has approached with living with a gay guy. lol

 

IT wAS PLAIN sin!

WASNT IT A SIN ?????????????????.. WHY WE DISCPLINE by telling THEM NOT to COMe TO Church?

stay out for 3 months

pASSING OUT nON sda stuff?

Is that in the Manuel?

As I' ve said ..The DVD belongs to an organization that does not ask for tithe or a call to leave our Church.

A difference of reading the End Time Bible Scriptures. Not Sabbath or 2nd Coming.

( you will see different approaches ,of course)

 

BTW please start a new thread on the link I gave if so inclined.

Larry Wilson deserves its own thread.

Not to be  hijacked here.

 

__________________

Naomi, I hope I answered your question.

If not try a different way..I may be confused!

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[Naomi]

With all due respect, I have to wonder why it is/was necessary to pass out this type of materials in the church. 

[GayatfootofCross]

 It appears that it is time for serious prayer

 

Yeah I am a mess over this!

I have so much scriptures and facts to shove that SDA Elder  to the wall.

Im a mess

They and I need prayers.

I could decimate him.

The arrogance and self rightousness!

So that's the sin and that's his job?

Edited August 18, 2015 by GayatfootofCross