Adventists Exclusivness

[LifeHiscost]

Fascinating History!

I don't think I met a non Fundamentalist till much later in Life at my Church.

All were so punitive and lording over .. Hey! I ran with a Ruff crowd!

 

I came across this book   'How to Read the Bible and Still Be a Christian: Struggling with Divine Violence from Genesis Through Revelation' by John Dominic Crossan

 

Many Christians serve a punitive GOD and they can't be anyway else when dealing with that Elderly Couple.

You see it here loud all  in posts.

 

It helps to get a New Look at God in this book

' Servant God '  http://www.amazon.com/Servant-God-Cosmic-Conflict-Trustworthiness/dp/1594100233/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1440180650&sr=1-1&keywords=servant+god

 

This is part of the Three Angels Message.

 

I see you have done some exploring with A different God that is the Most Beautiful Being in the Universe!

 

 

#the other one? uhhh not so pretty

........................

 

 

 

 

 

 

talk about a veil being lifted!

 

 

Here is a program I haven't had time to watch all of yet. However what I have watched seems to address some of the issues referred to in your posts, and I would like to suggest while you may straighten every person out here on CA, the major problems of the last days of this earths history, as it relates to the remnant church is far from over.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbPba9OfZTQ

I'll be praying for your decision to watch it, perhaps over the Sabbath, and your dependence on the Holy Spirit to bring you the Water of Life through its' influence. It's been highly enlightening to me. Shabbat  Shalom!

  God is Love!  Jesus saves!     

 

[GayatfootofCross]

Here is a program I haven't had time to watch all of yet. However what I have watched seems to address some of the issues referred to in your posts, and I would like to suggest while you may straighten every person out here on CA, the major problems of the last days of this earths history, as it relates to the remnant church is far from over.

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbPba9OfZTQ

I'll be praying for your decision to watch it, perhaps over the Sabbath, and your dependence on the Holy Spirit to bring you the Water of Life through its' influence. It's been highly enlightening to me. Shabbat  Shalom!

  God is Love!  Jesus saves!     

 

thank you for the recommendation

I am less than an hour in and will continue later

It is fascinating and very well done.

I read a book as a young man with the title OMEGA but couldn't tell you  which one or by who

I was very familiar with this once upon a time.

This vid is going deeper.

Thank you!

[debbym]

This issue is either right or wrong. It is included in importance with other sins as depriving eternal life. Can we assume that something that important is going to be left to a maybe or???

There are sins that are not spelled out in the ten commandments, like the sin of neglecting your salvation, or the sin of ingratitude, or the sin of failing to pray for sinners, and the sin of  self righteousness. There is the dreadful sin of gossiping, of bitterness, and unforgiveness, and sheer unbelief.  These are deadly, and they are right or wrong.  They not so glaring as murder and lying and adultery, but like coveting they are so insidious  and they are matters within the heart that often only God sees and are dealt with between God and His creation.

They nuetralize love, they short circuit the very Spirit of mercy, and graciousness, and kindness.  There is something we recognize as the fingerprint of God, as it were the foot prints of God.  It is a change that is left when someone was there,  the mark of the living God who made all things, who is drawing all humanity to himself that he might touch them, and make them forever recognizable as His own.

That sign is His character lived out, Divine Love for God and Divine Love for man, and a craving for God to be glorified in a world that is dying without Him.  Yes the ten commandments spell out sin, but the Spirit makes known the depth of the character of God far deeper than the rightness and wrongness that the law can do.  We can no longer live by how right or wrong, by correctness or incorrectness.  It becomes, how much is God represented, or misrepresented.  Where God is and where God is represented The Holy Spirit is there to bring conviction of all sin, and make it all known by contrast with His very Holy Person. And where God is making sin known, he is revealing Himself who is the very light that allows sin to be recognizable.

Those who brought the woman caught in adultery were wielding the law, and wielding the rightness or wrongness, and slunk away when the presence of God made their condition so unbearable in His presence.  My view of right and wrong, and my pointing my finger at wrong can never accomplish what the presence of God does.  Everything of importance can be trusted to God to deal with in His children, and it is deeper that even words can go.

[bonnie]

 

 

Those who brought the woman caught in adultery were wielding the law, and wielding the rightness or wrongness, and slunk away when the presence of God made their condition so unbearable in His presence.  My view of right and wrong, and my pointing my finger at wrong can never accomplish what the presence of God does.  Everything of importance can be trusted to God to deal with in His children, and it is deeper that even words can go.

The woman caught in adultery is a very important story/example. Why is it that a very crucial ending to that story is always left out?  What do you suppose the reaction to this story would be if it ended with the woman telling Jesus it was only a cultural thing?

It would take biblical scholars to determine if she was actually sinning,regardless of what Jesus/scripture said. Or one of my favorites ,God meets us where we are at,which of course seems to stop there. Or we can keep our pet sins that are just to difficult to give up until Jesus returns and then all will be better.

The bible is quite clear whether it is adultery,stealing,lying,or homosexual behavior what our 

final out come will be. It is up to Him to do the judging. It is not up to me to whack anyone upside the head with the bible when I encounter any of the mentioned.On the flip side of that it is not up to anyone to judge me or anyone else that believes what the bible says on the subject instead of believing it is simply cultural. I am not  obligated to accept the constant criticism of biblical instruction to prove I am a christian and am not condemning someone else to hell.

Nor do I believe that I need to gloss over what the bible says when confronted by those that continually deny what is clearly written. If that is the way someone chooses to live their life,their business, If they do not want a response or feel judged by those that do believe the bible means what is written,then quite hammering on the subject until you pound others into agreement or silence. You can't have it both ways

They nuetralize love, they short circuit the very Spirit of mercy, and graciousness, and kindness

is applicable to those that use every opportunity to push a certain agenda,trying to make all those that disagree less than they are.

Whatever pet sin someone is dealing with,not my business to take care of it. Just don't demand the christians that disagree with you either be silent or prove they are christians by agreeing

 

 

 

 

 

 

Constant criticism by those that choose to believe the bible is not entirely accurate towards those that do believe it to be accurate is  applicable 

Edited August 23, 2015 by bonnie

[GayatfootofCross]

I can't leave anyone hanging.

So here goes!

Well since this has been going on I haven't sought out mine and my Buddy Spiritual Mentors. One couple is in Hawaii having luau's and tonight we are meeting with the other couple to go to a birthday party.

Been keeping this to myself. Well except here.

As of yesterday The Elderly man called and asked for my buddy to be with him at church, Thursday. Meeting with our Minister and Elder. (no, not the one who told on him.)

The Elderly man wants someone .. needs someone there for support.

My Buddy his heming and hawing to the commitment as of right now.

I want to go instead! But I wasn't invited..

Pray there will be Reconciliation on some level.

I doubt either one will move on their understanding of end time scriptures.

Or their role on EGW in the Church.

But to see a bigger picture that both their Foundation is Christ and treat each other so.

 

..........................

The Elderly man and I discussed at great lengths the real issues here.

He knows  most people don't cotton to his Understanding and he is looked at as the enemy by a few.

But we battle not with flesh and blood.

...........................................

I.myself have to love and to love on others who don't share my viewpoint.

Or any points!
 

It is not found in my empty self.

........................    It can only come from God Who pours it in thru Looking at Him Looking at me with absolute love and non condemnation (as shown on the Cross .. and still at the Foot of it).

Only then can I bring Non condemnation to the betraying kindless enemies of my Brother in Christ in Church.

..maybe its a good thing I was not asked!

 

God bless you all.

 

BTW i've come a long ways in this and still have many miles

 

 

Edited August 25, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[JoeMo]

Hi Gay,

I certainly hope and pray that your Elderly friend can get past his offense with the denomination and reinforce his relationship with God.  I also pray that God give both of you peace in this matter.  If some SDA's are to "good" to have your friend in fellowship, he should feel free to go elsewhere.  Those in your church that have chased your friend away will have to answer to God.  Relationship and fellowship with God and His Son is much more important than relationship to a denomination.

[GayatfootofCross]

Hi Gay,

I certainly hope and pray that your Elderly friend can get past his offense with the denomination and reinforce his relationship with God.  I also pray that God give both of you peace in this matter.  If some SDA's are to "good" to have your friend in fellowship, he should feel free to go elsewhere.  Those in your church that have chased your friend away will have to answer to God.  Relationship and fellowship with God and His Son is much more important than relationship to a denomination.

o yes!

And and how we still need to be connected to a Body of Christ where we can find it!

Edited August 25, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[GayatfootofCross]

well today we both will be with the elderly man meeting with minister and elder.

Pray that we bring HIS SPIRIT not ours!

 

 

.......

 i have prepared a one page letter to read

if so inclined

Edited August 27, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[GayatfootofCross]

well im back and it did'nt look good when the elderly man started the Bible Study on Revelation and the Minister and the Elder didn't take out their Bibles.

For me it was never about differences of theological hair splitting but How God calls us to be when differences arises.

 

So unless the elderly man signs a paper that he won't talk about Revelations in any way  :phone ,personal visits.giving books DVD's etc. to members of our church. he cant come for 3 months

It still stands.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 28, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

[Jessie-Jess]

Did you notice the link that you shared to that article is an ex-Adventist website? At least it seems to be. Ex-Adventists tend to be very against the Adventist church, even exaggerating and making up things to try to give Adventism and Adventists a bad image. I've been to more than one ex-Adventist site in the past, and this is how I know this is true.

By the way, I was raised attending the Seventh-day Adventist church.

1. They are born in a Seventh Day Adventist hospital to Seventh Day Adventist parents.
   1. Truth: I don't know if this is the norm, but I know that many are not, and I was not born in an Adventist hospital. 
2. They then go to an Adventist preschool and make Adventist-only friends.
   1. Truth: I'm not aware of many Adventist preschools. Maybe church schools? Adventist day-cares? I went to a day care and a preschool (I think it was preK), and as far as I can tell, they were not Adventist and I have no reason to believe they were Adventist. 
3. They then head to an Adventist grade school and make Adventist-only friends. Alternatively if they belong to very exclusive parents they are homeschooled, and their only contact with other children is at their church.
   1. Truth: I went to public school, and am sure I am not alone in this. Because of what public schools teach, and what I was exposed to there, I honestly do believe that home school is the better alternative.
4. They then go to an Adventist high school. 
   1. Truth: Again, I went to public school, and am sure I am not alone in this. Because of what public schools teach, and what I was exposed to there, I honestly do believe that home school is the better alternative.
5. They then go to an Adventist university and college (and while there, most likely study to become either a nurse, a teacher of a pastor).
   1. Truth: No, we do not all go to an Adventist university and college, and there are Adventist universities and colleges that accept non-Adventists. I went to community college first, but then went to an Adventist college because I believe the Lord was leading me there, and it was more affordable (believe it or not) without the huge debt that other college would have gotten me in to (I went to a private one that did not have a financial aid/loan program, and I am thankful for that.) The Adventist college I attended was one of the best things that ever happened to me in my life, and was a real turning point in my life. 
6. They then get a job in an Adventist business/institution. These are particularly appealing from a practical perspective, because these businesses will forcibly be closed during Sabbath hours (or if they are a hospital, it is OK because they can work during Sabbath).
   1. Truth: Many Adventists work in non-Adventist businesses/institutions. After trying it for a while, I'm determined to work in Adventist businesses/institutions or as a missionary, and I am convicted that it is NOT OK to do a lot of the work that even Adventists do on Sabbath even in Adventist institutions. It's one reason why I'm leaving one Adventist institution and looking for another. 
7. They will then get married to an Adventist spouse, as an SDA pastor is not allowed to marry an SDA to a non-SDA.
   1. Truth: We are counseled and even Scripture counsels against being unequally yolked. Many Adventists go against this counsel, and it often causes problems and children are raised with non-Adventist and sometimes even non-Christian influences (one of my parents is not an Adventist), and this can cause the child to stumble and become confused, maybe even choose to leave the church, especially if the Adventist parent appears to be too strict or legalistic. It can also cause division/divorce in the family, or the Adventist parent can be lead away from the truth. It really is better not to be unequally yolked, not even with another Adventist that does not believe the same (for example, if I were to marry someone with a different view on diet and health, it may be difficult for me, especially if I'm expected to cook his way. Or if I were to marry an Adventist man who watches violent movies, our children might be exposed to those movies and traumatized and ruined like I was. We could end up arguing about these things, etc. Or maybe the man would get fed up with what he considers to be too conservative, and might want to leave me because of it. Or maybe he'd try to convince me to do things as he does, etc. These kinds of things happen..). 
8. They then will eventually retire in an Adventist rest home, where they will live out the rest of their days.
   1. Truth: I know Adventists who are well past retirement age and still working, or able to get along just fine without having to check into a nursing home. In fact, I know many elderly Adventists and very few are in a nursing home.

"Not only is this a common course of life, but it is greatly encouraged." - Why shouldn't it be encouraged to work for the Lord in His institutions, to help the sick and elderly and injured in hospitals, and to give your children the best education possible, free from being taught unbiblical theories, such as evolution and the idea that our Lord was a common criminal (I actually saw this in a history classroom on the wall, and brought that concern to my teacher, who--if I recall correctly--agreed with me that He wasn't just a common criminal, but was executed as a common criminal. The description on the wall seemed to suggest that He was just a common criminal, though, and I could have been wrong.) Even more serious, I dropped out of a class in community college, because the goal of the class (and it was a history class) seemed to be to teach that God didn't actually exist (or if He existed, that He didn't care). And some of these things, such as evolution, are being taught in Adventist schools, too, so I believe that our children shouldn't even be sent to those schools.

It's true mine was not a prestigious Adventist family. Maybe we were more like "barely Adventist", but we did attend the Adventist church. Yet, I felt loved and at home, usually, in my home church. 

And I was surrounded mainly by non-Adventists in my life, and formed close relationships with them. I even have a couple non-Adventist friends from high school that I am still/back in contact with, and one childhood friend who was non-Adventist (though she did come to church with my family a few times) who is back in contact with me as a friend.

We really need to be careful what we read, especially when it comes from people who used to be in the Adventist church, who obviously have hard feelings or hate toward the church for whatever reason, and are trying to give the church a bad name. One non-Adventist on an ex-Adventist site even went so far as to declare that Sunday is the true Sabbath and that the Catholic church never claimed that they/changed the rest day from Sabbath (Saturday) to Sunday, and that's very dangerous and incorrect teaching, even going so far as to deny the Catholic church's own claims to try to disprove Adventist theology. Someone must be seriously deceived or very hateful (and they did seem hateful) to do such a thing. There's also a lot of misrepresentation of our beliefs and doctrines out there, too. 

[Gail]

I am still puzzled at why some ex-SDA seem so vindictive after they have left the denomination. I would think that once they were gone they would be happier...

Regarding passing out "other" literature- it is not surprising to see this clamped down upon. I have lived long enough to see movements come and go, each time and each one pulling out members with them. In one case I knew a family member of a Shepherd's Rod who related to me how a family friend, now a Conference president, rejected his boy because the boy was traveling around to Camp meetings trying to recruit sympathizers by showing them supposed errors of the church leadership. Spreading division and confusion doesn't accomplish much for Jesus. To me it seems like wasted energy.

[Gregory Matthews]

Some Ex-SDAs have suffered much spiritual abuse from the denomination.  They have been hurt and are hurting.  They may be coming from the standpoint of attempting to protect others from being hurt.

 

Others are so inspired by the "new light" that they have received that they want to share it with others.

 

Edited August 30, 2015 by Gregory Matthews

[Jessie-Jess]

Some Ex-SDAs have suffered much spiritual abuse from the denomination.  They have been hurt and are hurting.  They may be coming from the standpoint of attempting to protect others from being hurt.

 

I realize that. Believe it or not, I've had my own experience at least once where I did not want to go back to church, but I did and am grateful that I never officially left the church, for my relationship with God is even stronger now than it had been before (though it was the church,not God, that I was so tempted to give up on). I'm thankful for kind and loving SDA neighbors who kept offering me a ride to church. I don't even want to know where I'd be if I had really left. I don't mean to say that all SDAs are so vindictive and vengeful, but it does seem that certain SDAs who go out of their way to make these sites even make up things and exaggerate and deny history itself in order to misrepresent Adventism and/or hurt the church and/or call others out of the church and/or justify their own leaving of the church.

 

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

when I left the church, I *loved* those "anti-SDA" websites that were comprised of bitter ex-SDA's...  They'd whine and complain and point fingers, and I'd join in the "Hallelujah, I'm not a hypocrite" chorus.

Then, for a long time, I didn't even bother with those groups... until I got a rude awakening during my witchcraft years.  Then I went back to those former SDA forums, particularly the FAF, in an effort to try and figure out what spiritual path to take — back to  the comfortable position of pointing fingers at Adventists.

It occurred to me, while reading about all the bad, horrible things that SDAs had [subjectively] done to the various members, and reading the "Egg White" comments, that perhaps not all was as it was being cracked up to be. Though there had definitely been obnoxious people in the church who I had detested (and the feeling was probably mutual), and though EGW had been hammered at me ad nauseum, I suddenly realized I was painting the SDA Church with a very broad, very critical brush.  While I most definitely had been spiritually abused by some SDA preachers, not everyone was like that.  New personal friends came on the scene, including Mike Jones, Lonnie Melashenko, and others, whose opinions I valued because, not only were they were not stupid people, they didn't put on some sort of religious phony persona... they really did walk their talk.

And then I joined C/A, as well, and found that, indeed I was right....there are so many different "flavors" of Adventists, just as in any other denomination.  And, really, it would be terribly boring if everyone "sang the same note"....

 

[GayatfootofCross]

where ever we can find fellowship... in the church or outside

God wants us to find healing in Community.

That is what we are fashioned for as Social Creatures.

 

#God made us this way!

[fccool]

I'm not really sure that exclusivity is exceptionally horrible in the scope of SDA belief.   People don't generally ask questions like "Why are Jews exclusive" or "Why Muslims are exclusive" or "Why Mormons are exclusive".

Any religious group will be exclusive to some degree or another.  Every religious group will promote some dogma, and shut members who tend to ignore the standard preferences of the group.

It extends beyond religion and dives into group psychology, tribalism, nationalism, culture identity, and virtually every human and even animal-based dynamics we have.

 

You'd have to point out the negative issues with such set up, but I really don't see that exclusive mindset is inherently wrong or detrimental.

[GayatfootofCross]

3 hours ago, fccool said:

I'm not really sure that exclusivity is exceptionally horrible in the scope of SDA belief.   People don't generally ask questions like "Why are Jews exclusive" or "Why Muslims are exclusive" or "Why Mormons are exclusive".

Any religious group will be exclusive to some degree or another.  Every religious group will promote some dogma, and shut members who tend to ignore the standard preferences of the group.

It extends beyond religion and dives into group psychology, tribalism, nationalism, culture identity, and virtually every human and even animal-based dynamics we have.

 

You'd have to point out the negative issues with such set up, but I really don't see that exclusive mindset is inherently wrong or detrimental.

 

We have posts here that point out the negative issues.

It is human to be exclusive..yes you are right, fcool.

It is divine to be inclusive. ...we are called to be impartial in our love and treatment.

Mirroring JESUS!

 

It is awful for our church to be like the world in this regard.

[AliAgins]

Around 20 years ago I was in a Mormon Family Center doing work on my genealogy.  The woman that was working there was having a conversation with one of her friends about someone that had left the LDS church.  She commented: "They know the truth and one day they will return."

I had a ahhh haaa moment.  The light bulb lit up.  I could have been in a SDA fellowship hall...or a Catholic or Methodist or and one of the dozens and dozens of

religious organizations or churches around the world. It really opened my eyes.  I had grown up SDA.  Church and School and this during the 40's - 90's when this occurred.  I had spent a long time out of the church... all through my 20's until I was re-baptized during my 40's.  I had not left the church because of doctrine.  I believed everything I had ever been taught or had studied on my own.  I was the prodigal daughter.  The one that still loved to read her mother's Reviews and to discuss religion and the church with other back-sliders in one of the local gathering spots.  One of the things that sent me on a quest to understand my church was when one of the men I discussed the events of the church with...told me that the pastor at La Sierra church had told him that he could come back...that Ellen White was not an issue and that she had been discounted.  WHAT?!  I couldn't believe this and thought this the craziest thing I'd ever heard.  What could the Adventist church be without EGW?  It sent me on a discovery quest.  I landed up in the Heritage room at the LSU library and in discussions with the librarian there.  I learned a lot.  About why one of my girlfriends had joined up with the Reformed SDA group that came out of Australia via Germany and what that was all about.  I learned so much of SDA history and then when I stopped at the College Store I'd find books that were anti Ellen White (The White Lie).  I couldn't wrap my head around it.  I had never had a problem with Ellen White's writings (and still don't).  I didn't understand that the church that I had left years ago had been going through a lot of changes. 

When I was re-baptized I discovered that this church was not nearly as judgmental as the one I had walked away from all those years before.  One thing that happened is something I'll never forget.  I was attending Arlington SDA church.  The one that I had grown up in.  During the Aids scare there was a young man that was attending as often as he was able.  He was gay and had Aids.  But he had been converted.  I witnessed how the members of the church welcomed him and his partner.  How he was treated with such kindness.  He lived in LA and would drive out on Sabbath morning and then back home.  Several times I invited him and his friend to my home for lunch after church.  He was such a sweet soul.  When he died his father would not have anything to do with burying him or attending his service.  Arlington stepped up to the plate and paid for everything.  They had a memorial service that was well attended.  This was Christian love in action.  I'll never forget it.

I have many stories that are examples of both sides of the debate.  The harsh, unmovable and unkind remarks from members.  The loving, kind, forgiving care from others.

I remember one time when a new person that had been brought to church by The It is Written videos....came to potluck with her fried chicken...a woman took it from her with a "We don't eat this."....tossed it into the trash barrel.  So do you think that newcomer ever came back????......

We have a long way to go to answer the angel's declaration of: "Press together.  Press together."  And when that happens what do you think Jesus will say?

The problem as I see it... IS this... Those in high up positions of power through out the years have hired people that may have talked a good line about being faithful and toeing the line...but were not kind.  Found fault.  Resorted (in schools) to dismissing or kicking out students that even looked like they were heading out the door toward "the world".  I have a friend that was kicked out of La Sierra Academy because someone drove by the Arlington movie theater and he was standing out front... I think he said he was waiting for someone.  So do you think he is in the church today????

I had a 7th grade teacher that was as mean as a snake.  And come to think of it...the 2nd and 4th grade teachers were of that same caliber.  But I had teachers that were so loving and kind.  I know a man that still remembers the first grade teacher that I thought was wonderful... beating his legs with a hose.  He hates her to this day and she is long dead. 

I had a class reunion at my home many years ago and we had people that attended that said if it had been at the school they would never have come.  We are talking of people in their close to elder years.  They still have grudges and wounds from a Christian school!  And no one had anyone that had contacted them to return!!!  Why is that?????

What I have found through the years is that people in positions of leadership do not want to acknowledge that our schools and SSchools have had people that should never have been teachers or persons in charge of children.  Because if you trace it all back...it is into the Sabbath School room...the school room where the anger and fear began.  Having people that really didn't like children to begin with were in charge of them...and the seed is planted...Jesus said something about children and those that abuse them...and deep water and millstones...  The unkind Elders...the rushed and frustrated teachers...unkind words...pinched arms and ugly mean looks.  That is what has caused these deep feeling of separation!  This should be admitted and acknowledged and perhaps the wounded would come home!  And I nearly forgot.  The evil of bullying is alive and well and has always been there in SDA classrooms and out on the playground.  That comes from the home life of the bully!  This should never have been allowed to happen and I hope it isn't as bad as it once was.

 

 

Edited January 23, 2016 by AliAgins

[Gail]

Ali, I like the connection you make between being treated with kindness and remaining in the church.