Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 In 4 different threads this issue was tackled, hence this thread is started to consolidate the discussions in the other 4 relative to this issue. First, for consistency in the use of words in this discussion, the following words will be taken to mean: 1. Believing - the act of exercising faith 2. Believer - one who has already believed in God, in Christ, or in both the Father and the Son. 3. Non-believer - one who has not yet believed in God, in Christ, or in both the Father and the Son. 4. Unbeliever - one who refuses to believe in God, in Christ, or in both the Father and the Son Believing is exercising faith which was given by God. So what came first? A. The giving of faith to man by God or B. Man's exercising that faith given him? Quote
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 Before becoming a believer, one is a non-believer. To become a believer, he needs to exercise faith which God gave. It only seems logical that the giving precedes the believing. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 In 4 different threads this issue was tackled, hence this thread is started to consolidate the discussions in the other 4 relative to this issue. First, for consistency in the use of words in this discussion, the following words will be taken to mean: 1. Believing - the act of exercising faith 2. Believer - one who has already believed in God, in Christ, or in both the Father and the Son. 3. Non-believer - one who has not yet believed in God, in Christ, or in both the Father and the Son. 4. Unbeliever - one who refuses to believe in God, in Christ, or in both the Father and the Son Believing is exercising faith which was given by God. So what came first? A. The giving of faith to man by God or B. Man's exercising that faith given him? Your question doesn't make sense. How could it possibly be the case that one could exercise faith he hadn't yet received? It's possible to suggest a different definition for faith. Robert Wieland defined it as "a heart appreciation of the love of God, especially as revealed at the cross". Using this definition, what God gave is His Son, and when the believer appreciates that (i.e. exercises faith) he is justified, or reconciled, to God. So it is God's actions which comes first (for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son), and then man responds. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 Your question doesn't make sense. How could it possibly be the case that one could exercise faith he hadn't yet received? So you believe that the giving precedes the believing? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 So you believe that the giving precedes the believing? Yes, God gave His Son, which precedes the sinner believing. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 Samie: So you believe that the giving precedes the believing? Pnatt: Yes, God gave His Son, which precedes the sinner believing. Could you stick to the issue of this thread, please? Do you believe that God gave faith to man first before man believed? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Could you stick to the issue of this thread, please? Do you believe that God gave faith to man first before man believed? If we accept the definition that faith is a response of man to the love of God, then your question becomes did God give man a response before or after he responded. You should be able to see this question doesn't make sense. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8. (DA 175) What God does is to provoke a response. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 If we accept the definition that faith is a response of man to the love of God, then your question becomes did God give man a response before or after he responded. You should be able to see this question doesn't make sense. This thread is about the giving of faith by God to man and man's believing. As to the definition of faith, that is not an issue in the OP. If you feel my question does not make sense, then you can bow out from this thread. I would respect that, brother. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) This thread is about the giving of faith by God to man and man's believing. As to the definition of faith, that is not an issue in the OP. If you feel my question does not make sense, then you can bow out from this thread. I would respect that, brother. You can't discuss a question about the timing of faith without having a definition of faith. Also I sort of doubt anyone else wants to play, so you're stuck with me. But if someone else joins in, I'll watch. Edited October 13, 2015 by pnattmbtc 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Another way of putting this is that God has given each on the ability to exercise faith, and, of course, this is done before the person actually exercises faith. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 You can't discuss a question about the timing of faith without having a definition of faith. The Bible already has its own definition faith. And it seems not like the definition you want. Quote
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 NKJ Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. You define faith as man's response to the love of God, so we can rephrase the above verse to: By his response Enoch was taken away . . . Was Enoch taken away by his response? Or was he taken away because he believed? I surmise, it is the latter. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 The Bible already has its own definition faith. And it seems not like the definition you want. It's not really a definition, but a description of an aspect (assuming you're thinking of Hebrews). I like Robert Wieland's definition. I think it's accurate, and there's a couple of ways to see it. One is John 3:16. Another is the story of the woman in Luke 7, which is capped by Jesus saying to the woman, "Go in peace; your faith has saved you," and we can see from happened previously the essence of faith. However, even if you wanted to use as a definition faith is the substance of things hoped for, there is still a response involved, as without a person's response there can be nothing for the person to hope for. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 NKJ Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, "and was not found, because God had taken him"; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. You define faith as man's response to the love of God, so we can rephrase the above verse to: By his response Enoch was taken away . . . Was Enoch taken away by his response? Or was he taken away because he believed? I surmise, it is the latter. His believing was the response. It's like this: 1.God loves <- this is God taking the initiative. 2.Man responds <- this is faith, or believing, man's response. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 Expanding the thought a bit more, God's love is active; God so loves that He gives. God gives us all He has, which is the gift of Himself in His Son. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. The love of God draws us, and if we do not resist His drawing love, we will be led to the foot of the cross in repentance. Man may appreciate, be thankful for, be grateful for, what God has done for him, and respond by giving himself to God. This is faith. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 It would then appear that whatever definition it has, since it is God Who gave faith to man, as per Rom 12:3, and following your logic, no one could then be faulted for not believing since God has not given him faith. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 It would then appear that whatever definition it has, since it is God Who gave faith to man, as per Rom 12:3, and following your logic, no one could then be faulted for not believing since God has not given him faith. 1.Romans 12:3 is dealing with believers, and the subject isn't salvation, or justification by faith, but not believing more highly about oneself than one should. 2.If faith is a response, then the giving of faith must be the giving of the ability to respond, and, yes, God gives that first, before the person responds. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 But man is to be faulted for not believing, because God has given him faith, which he uses to believe. To not believe is to be overcome by the evil of unbelief. And God has given faith to every man, therefore, all are able to believe by simply exercising it. The non-exercise of the faith given him, makes one accountable. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Faith is the response to a stimulus, the stimulus being the love of God revealed at the cross. The goodness of God leads us to repentance. A person can choose to resist (which is the evil of unbelief), or to respond, which is the blessing of faith. God has given each one (with reasoning powers) the ability to respond. Edited October 13, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 13, 2015 Author Posted October 13, 2015 1.Romans 12:3 is dealing with believers, and the subject isn't salvation, or justification by faith, but not believing more highly about oneself than one should. I doubt that. Vv 1, 2 deal about living sacrifice and reasonable service, and I surmise they concern one's salvation. 2.If faith is a response, then the giving of faith must be the giving of the ability to respond, and, yes, God gives that first, before the person responds. It's your statement that faith is a response as per your earlier posts. It would then follow that the giving of faith = the giving of that response itself, not the ability to respond. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted October 13, 2015 Posted October 13, 2015 1.Romans 12:3 is dealing with believers, and the subject isn't salvation, or justification by faith, but not believing more highly about oneself than one should. Samie: I doubt that. Vv 1, 2 deal about living sacrifice and reasonable service, and I surmise they concern one's salvation. They've already been justified by faith is the point. 13 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: 2.If faith is a response, then the giving of faith must be the giving of the ability to respond, and, yes, God gives that first, before the person responds. Samie: It's your statement that faith is a response as per your earlier posts. It would then follow that the giving of faith = the giving of that response itself, not the ability to respond. The giving of a response doesn't make sense. The giving of a capacity to respond make sense. Romans 12:3 says for each one to not think of himself more highly than he ought, but according to the measure of faith he has been given. Here is something from Clarke's commentary: Not to think - more highly - Μη ὑπερφρονειν, Not to act proudly; to arrogate nothing to himself on account of any grace he had received, or of any office committed to him.But to think soberly - Αλλα φρονειν εις το σωφρονειν. The reader will perceive here a sort of paronomasia, or play upon words: φρονειν, from φρην, the mind, signifies to think, mind, relish, to be of opinion, etc.; and σωφρονειν from σοος, sound, and φρην, the mind, signifies to be of a sound mind; to think discreetly, modestly, humbly. Let no man think himself more or greater than God has made him; and let him know that what ever he is or has of good or excellence, he has it from God; and that the glory belongs to the giver, and not to him who has received the gift.Measure of faith - Μετρον πιστεως. It is very likely, as Dr. Moore has conjectured, that the πιστις, faith, here used, means the Christian religion; and the measure, the degree of knowledge and experience which each had received in it, and the power this gave him of being useful in the Church of God. Paul isn't giving an explanation of how justification by faith works. He did so earlier in Romans, where he explained that the goodness of God leads us to repentance. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted October 14, 2015 Author Posted October 14, 2015 So far you have suggested two different definitions of faith. One is a heart-response, the other is the ability to respond to a stimulus. Now, Scriptures say that God gave faith to every man (Rom 12:3). Using your definitions, we can substitute into Rom 12:3 either "heart-response" or "ability to respond" for the word "faith". Hence, God gave faith to every man = God gave heart-response to everyman = God gave the ability to respond to every man. And if one has no heart-response nor the ability to respond, it is because God has not yet given him any. So how can he be held accountable for not responding to the stimulus when God has not given him the heart-response nor the ability to respond? Quote
8thdaypriest Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I'm just watching. I do think one thing is left out of the discussion. All humans have the God-given ability to respond to the love of God, with belief. OK. But they must HEAR about God and His love, BEFORE they can exercise their God-given ability to respond. If they never HEAR about Him, then they cannot KNOW that HE loves them. There's an element of necessary information. Quote 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted October 14, 2015 Posted October 14, 2015 I'm just watching. I do think one thing is left out of the discussion. All humans have the God-given ability to respond to the love of God, with belief. OK. But they must HEAR about God and His love, BEFORE they can exercise their God-given ability to respond. If they never HEAR about Him, then they cannot KNOW that HE loves them. There's an element of necessary information. I've commented on this (although using other words). I wrote that faith is a response to a stimulus. You're pointing out the importance of the stimulus. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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