What came first: the giving of faith, or, the act of believing?

[teresaq]

For me, anything and everything we discuss about the gospel is spiritual. Yes, the Body of Christ created on the cross, is the Church (Eph 5:23; Col 1:18). Again, that Body was brought into existence on the cross BEFORE any single person was ever called a Christian.

Let me see if I have this straight. "Man", for you, equates to church rather than a person as normally used in the bible? Am I understanding you correctly?

[pnattmbtc]

You are wrong again. First wrong in the chapter and wrong in its application.

The argument starts in Romans 9, and goes through Romans 11.  Paul writes:

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.  

which was exactly my point. 

[pnattmbtc]

And you have not yet answered this question: When was the Body of Christ created, if not on the cross?

I answered the question.  "as soon as there was sin, there was a Savior".

[Samie]

You are misinformed here.  Read the Wiki article.

i prefer the Scriptures instead of the Wiki.

I agree with the sentiment, but wonder what you have in mind.  The wall is torn down *by faith* when people accept Christ as their Lord. 

Scriptures please.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, according to the usage of Paul, such a 1 Cor. 12, we see that the body of Christ consists of believers in Christ.  So you're question as to when the body of Christ was formed is tantamount to asking when were there believers in Christ.  The first believers would have been in the garden of Eden.

If the body of Christ consists in believers in Christ, this could not have started at the cross, or else Abraham could not be the father of all who believe.

[Samie]

I answered the question.  "as soon as there was sin, there was a Savior".

That does not answer the question asked. Read it again.

[pnattmbtc]

You are misinformed here.  Read the Wiki article.

Samie: i prefer the Scriptures instead of the Wiki.

 You said every Christian denomination says it's the body of Christ.  You are wrong in saying this.  I referred you to the Wiki article because it talks about this.  Your response here doesn't make sense, as you were the one who made the statement about every Christian denomination.

[Samie]

Samie, according to the usage of Paul, such a 1 Cor. 12, we see that the body of Christ consists of believers in Christ.  So you're question as to when the body of Christ was formed is tantamount to asking when were there believers in Christ.  The first believers would have been in the garden of Eden.

If the body of Christ consists in believers in Christ, this could not have started at the cross, or else Abraham could not be the father of all who believe.

So what Body was Paul referring to in Eph 2:11-19?

[pnattmbtc]

So what Body was Paul referring to in Eph 2:11-19?

The same as 1 Cor. 12.

[pnattmbtc]

I agree with the sentiment, but wonder what you have in mind.  The wall is torn down *by faith* when people accept Christ as their Lord. 

Scriptures please.

Ephesians chapter 2. 

[Samie]

The same as 1 Cor. 12.

So you are saying that the Body in Eph 2 created on the cross, is the same as the Body in 1 Cor 12.  I agree.

[Samie]

And don't forget to answer this: Who were branches of the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off? 

[pnattmbtc]

The same as 1 Cor. 12.

Samie: So you are saying that the Body in Eph 2 created on the cross, is the same as the Body in 1 Cor 12.  I agree.

You added "created on the cross".  Other than that it's ok.

A problem with your idea is that the body of Christ consists of only believers, as 1 Cor. 12 shows.  As I understand your idea, you disagree that the body of Christ consists of believers, but 1 Cor. 12, which describes the body of Christ, does not include unbelievers.  So Paul's idea in 1 Cor. 12 is only believers, and thus so is Ephesians 2, given that these two are the same.

[Samie]

 

You added "created on the cross".  Other than that it's ok.

A problem with your idea is that the body of Christ consists of only believers, as 1 Cor. 12 shows.  As I understand your idea, you disagree that the body of Christ consists of believers, but 1 Cor. 12, which describes the body of Christ, does not include unbelievers.  So Paul's idea in 1 Cor. 12 is only believers, and thus so is Ephesians 2, given that these two are the same.

In 1 Cor 12, Paul did not say when the Body was created. He did so in Eph 2, and that it was on the cross.

[Samie]

In our earlier discussion, you said God gave everyone the ability to reason. You also gave 2 definitions of faith, one of which is the ability to reason. Ability is the power to do things. And when one is separate from Christ, he is powerless, because Christ said separate from Him, one can do NOTHING. The fact that everyone has the ability to reason is proof enough everyone is NOT separate from Christ.

And to be NOT separate from Christ, is to be attached to Him, to be part of His Body. But now you seem to return to your flawed position again. Sorry, but that looks like a "wallowing sow" scenario (2 Pet 2:22).

[pnattmbtc]

In 1 Cor 12, Paul did not say when the Body was created. He did so in Eph 2, and that it was on the cross.

My point regarding 1 Cor. 12 is that the Body consists of believers only. 

[pnattmbtc]

In our earlier discussion, you said God gave everyone the ability to reason.

No I didn't.

You also gave 2 definitions of faith, one of which is the ability to reason.

I didn't say this either.

Ability is the power to do things. And when one is separate from Christ, he is powerless, because Christ said separate from Him, one can do NOTHING.

 

This is sort of true.  It is true that apart from Christ, we can't do anything, but it's not true that "separate from Christ" we cannot do anything, but we cannot do what Christ was talking about, which is to bear fruit, apart from Christ.  That is, the "nothing" that Christ was talking about was bearing fruit.  Christ was saying that we can bear no fruit unless we are united to the vine, where He is the vine.

The fact that everyone has the ability to reason is proof enough everyone is NOT separate from Christ.

No, not separate.  Dependent upon Christ, yes.

And to be NOT separate from Christ, is to be attached to Him, to be part of His Body.

John 15 is talking about the same group of people as 1 Cor. 12, which is believers.

But now you seem to return to your flawed position again. Sorry, but that looks like a "wallowing sow" scenario (2 Pet 2:22).

You're jumping all over the place, here a verse out of context, there another one out of context.  Consider a passage, where an author can say more than a few words and explain his meaning.  Consider 1 Cor. 12:

12 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:

11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many.

15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?

17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?

18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.

19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?

20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.

21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:

23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.

24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked.

25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.

26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.

28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?

30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

 Reading this chapter, it's clear the body of Christ consists of believers.  Do you see this?

[pnattmbtc]

In 1 Cor 12, Paul did not say when the Body was created. He did so in Eph 2, and that it was on the cross.

Paul did not say in Ephesians 2 that "the body of Christ was created on the cross."  I have seen you take other people to task because they claim the Scriptures say something, and then you quote what the Scriptures actually say, and make the point that it doesn't say what they are claiming.  I would do that here, but I don't even know where to start.  When you say that it is saying something, why not quote what it actually says?

[Samie]

In our earlier discussion, you said God gave everyone the ability to reason.

But you responded:

No I didn't.

Here's your post where you said God gave everyone that ability:

Something else I don't get is you are asking this:

and I posted at least three times that God has given the ability to everyone (with reasoning powers) to respond, I don't see how you can possibly not understand that this answers this question. Rather than just repeating yourself, please explain what you aren't understanding, or ask some clarifying question, because until you do, I have no idea what you're not getting.

[Samie]

No I didn't.

I didn't say this either.

 

This is sort of true.  It is true that apart from Christ, we can't do anything, but it's not true that "separate from Christ" we cannot do anything, but we cannot do what Christ was talking about, which is to bear fruit, apart from Christ.  That is, the "nothing" that Christ was talking about was bearing fruit.  Christ was saying that we can bear no fruit unless we are united to the vine, where He is the vine.

No, not separate.  Dependent upon Christ, yes.

John 15 is talking about the same group of people as 1 Cor. 12, which is believers.

You're jumping all over the place, here a verse out of context, there another one out of context.  Consider a passage, where an author can say more than a few words and explain his meaning.  Consider 1 Cor. 12:

 Reading this chapter, it's clear the body of Christ consists of believers.  Do you see this?

Yes. And I have long time ago explained that believing is overcoming the evil of unbelief.

[Samie]

But you seem to be forgetting my earlier question; again, and for the 4th time: Who were the branches of the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off?

[Samie]

But you seem to be forgetting my earlier question; again, and for the 4th time: Who were the branches of the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off?

To give you a hint, please read Ezek 16.  It has 63 verses so it would take up much space to post those verses here.

[teresaq]

LOL It looks to me that what was said, was read to say, what it did not say. LOL  Seems to be a rather common SDA habit. 

P said everyone who has reasoning powers. Nowhere did he say God gives....

 

In other words cut out the words in parenthesis and it will be read correctly.

1 hour ago,

S.In our earlier discussion,

you said God gave everyone the ability to reason

.

But you responded: No I didn't.

Here's your post where you said God gave everyone that ability:

P. Something else I don't get is you are asking this:

and I posted at least three times that God has given the ability to everyone (with reasoning powers) to respond, I don't see how you can possibly not understand that this answers this question. Rather than just repeating yourself, please explain what you aren't understanding, or ask some clarifying question, because until you do, I have no idea what you're not getting.

 

 

HUH? The quote was cut off. NOT HAPPY!

[Samie]

The original olive tree is Israel.  Their being God's tree did not stem from what they have done, but because of God's love. So with us, Gentiles.  Our being a part now of that original olive tree is because of what God has done for us. To teach that it's because of what we did that we became part of the original olive tree is taking the credit from God.

But just like the Israelites who were broken off for unbelief, we also will be broken off if we follow in their rebellious footsteps. In other words, only overcomers will not be broken off, that is, not blotted out from the Book of Life.

Read Ezek 16, and tell me what you think those verses tell us.

[teresaq]

For me, A.T Jones had the best understanding that made the most sense.  Yes it is a bit lengthy.

“For He is our peace, who hath made both one.” Made both who one?—God and men, certainly. “And hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us, having abolished in his flesh the enmity ... for to make in himself of twain [of two] one new man, so making peace.” {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 193.13}
 

Let us look that over again. “Having abolished in His flesh the enmity.” Now omitting the next clause (We are not studying that in this lesson.), what did He abolish that enmity for? What did He break down that middle wall of partition for? Why? “for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace.” Does Christ make a new man out of a Jew and a Gentile? No. Out of a heathen and somebody else? No. Out of one heathen and another heathen? No. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 193.14}

God makes one new man out of God and a man. And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 193.15}
 

All men were separated from God and in their separation from God they were separated from one another. True, Christ wants to bring all to one another; He was ushered into the world with “Peace on earth; good will to men.” That is His object. But does He spend His time in trying to get these reconciled to one another and in trying to destroy all these separations between men and to get them to say, “Oh, well, let all bygones be bygones; now we will bury the hatchet; now we will start out and turn over a new leaf and we will live better from this time on”? {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 194.1}
 

Christ might have done that. If He had taken that course there are thousands of people whom He could have persuaded to do that; thousands whom He could persuade to say, “Well, it is too bad that we acted that way toward one another; it is not right, and I am sorry for it. And now let us just all leave that behind and turn over a new leaf and go on and do better.” He could have got people to agree to that. But could they have stuck to it? No. For the wicked thing is there still that made the division. What caused the division? The enmity, their separation from God caused the separation from one another. Then what in the world would have been the use of the Lord Himself trying to get men to agree to put away their differences without going to the root of the matter and getting rid of the enmity that caused the separation? Their separation from God had forced a separation among themselves. And the only way to destroy their separation from one another was of necessity to destroy their separation from God. And this He did by abolishing the enmity. And we ministers can get a lesson from this, when churches call us to try to settle difficulties. We have nothing at all to do with settling difficulties between men as such. We are to get the difficulty between God and man settled and when that is done, all other separations will be ended. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 194.2}
 

It is true, the Jews in their separation from God had built up extra separations between themselves and the Gentiles. It is true that Christ wanted to put all those separations out of the way and He did do that. But the only way that He did it and the only way that He could do it was to destroy the thing that separated between them and God. All the separations between them and the Gentiles would be gone, when the separation, the enmity, between them and God was gone. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 194.3}
 

Oh, the blessed news that the enmity is abolished! It is abolished; thank the Lord. There is therefore now no need whatever of our having any friendship with the world. No need of our having any lack of obedience to the law of God. No need of any failure to be subject to God, for Jesus Christ has taken the enmity out of the way. He has abolished it, destroyed it. He has destroyed the wicked thing in which lies friendship with the world, in which lies lack of subject to God and failure to be subject to His law. It is gone; in Christ it is gone. Not outside of Christ. In Christ it is gone, abolished, annihilated. Thank the Lord. This is freedom indeed. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 194.4}
 

That has always been good news, of course. But to me now, in view of the situation which God has shown us as we are now placed in the world, this blessed news has come to me in the last few days as though I had never heard it before. It has come to me bringing such joy, such genuine Christian delight, that—well, it seems to me I am just as happy as a Christian. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 194.5}

Oh, the blessed fact that God says that thing which separates us from God, which joins us to the world and which does all the mischief, is abolished in Him, who is our Peace. Let us take the glad news tonight, rejoice in it all the night and all the day, that God may lead us on further and further into the green pastures and by the still waters of His glorious kingdom into which He has translated us. “Fear not, for behold I bring you good tidings of great joy which shall be to all people. For unto you [unto me I know] is born this day in the city of David, a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.” Thank the Lord. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 194.6}