What came first: the giving of faith, or, the act of believing?

[teresaq]

Re. Jones, independently and did mean to say I didn't know if it had been posted before. I love Jones. He may have been off here and there, but if we would study his points what a different church we could be. We might even have spread the real gospel world-wide by now.   ( as opposed to the ego-tripping ones we sometimes invent.   )

I quoted this same sermon!  Did you also quote this independently, or did you get the idea from me?  It's not important, but it would be pretty cool if you also independently posted the same sermon I did on the same subject.  I wholeheartedly agree.  I always thought this was a difficult passage to understand until I read what Jones said, and then it seemed simple.  What a privilege it would have been to have heard him speak in person!  Thank God, his sermons have been preserved for us.

 

Edited October 17, 2015 by teresaq

[teresaq]

Hi Teresa;

You quoted AT Jones:

I have already stated my view that the One New Man created on the cross is Jesus the Head, Jews and Gentiles the Body. The Head and the Body comprise the One New Man.

Since AT Jones is not around to defend his statements, and you are the one who posted them: In reference to Eph 2, when Jones said "God makes one new man out of God and a man", what do you think he meant? Who is the one new man?

What did he say?

[pnattmbtc]

 

Christ abolished the enmity of man with God at the cross because it took the ultimate sacrifice of oneself to show how deep God's love for us is. Unless we choose to blow it off, nor recognize it, in various manners.  Is that how you see it P. or another view?

 

You sort of combined ideas with a sort of shorthand, but assuming I understood you correctly, which I'm pretty sure I did, yes and Amen!!

[pnattmbtc]

This thread is titled What came first . . ., and you have already admitted that the giving of faith (for which you gave 2 definitions) came first, then I guess this thread has already bore the fruit the starter wants it to bear.

And since what you were trying to explain in your last posts are mere rehash of what has been, I am starting a new thread: Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

I'm sorry you view an explication of the Gospel in such negative terms, but if you want to start a new thread, OK.  It's disappointing that you refuse to address so many points. You ask questions you want to ask, and when they aren't answered to your satisfaction, ask them again with no comment, other than that they haven't been answered, and give no thought to simply ignoring what others have written.

[Samie]

Just wondering whether pnattmbtc still hangs around CA these days.

I miss you, my brother.  Happy Sabbath to you and your whole family.

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/13/2015 at 6:10 PM, pnattmbtc said:

Expanding the thought a bit more, God's love is active; God so loves that He gives.  God gives us all He has, which is the gift of Himself in His Son.  The goodness of God leads us to repentance.  The love of God draws us, and if we do not resist His drawing love, we will be led to the foot of the cross in repentance.  Man may appreciate, be thankful for, be grateful for, what God has done for him, and respond by giving himself to God.  This is faith.

The demons "believe" and tremble.  Their "believing" does not save them.  Why?  Because their BELIEF does not lead to repentance.  No acts of obedience or love, flow from their belief. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/14/2015 at 4:00 PM, pnattmbtc said:

And, even more finally, this is semantics.  The real heart of our difference involves the use of the will in being justified by faith or reconciled.

AMEN!

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/16/2015 at 5:30 PM, pnattmbtc said:

And you have not yet answered this question: When was the Body of Christ created, if not on the cross?

Doesn't this one depend on your context. 

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: "Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me; (Heb 10:5 NIV)

I would understand the "body" to be the human body of His incarnation - the one born of Mary. 

"Prepared" is not the same word as "created".  I could understand "prepared" to mean that God planned the incarnation.  

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/16/2015 at 5:20 PM, pnattmbtc said:

Quote

Samie said:  So, when was the Body of Christ created, if not on the cross?

From the Spirit of Prophecy, "as soon as there was sin, there was a Savior."  From the foundations of the world, the plan had been thought of (Revelation 13:8). 

Romans 11:16 says "the root" is "holy".  That means "the root" of the Olive Tree was/is the Son of God. 

The TREE represents Israel.  (Jeremiah 11:16).   But Israel consists of those "in Christ" (either pre-incarnate or post-incarnation).   The branches receive nourishment from "the root".  Branches are broken off "because of unbelief" and new branches are "grafted in" because of belief.  Obviously, one cannot receive nourishment from "the root" is one is not attached to the tree. 

If Samie's theory is correct, then every person begins life attached to the tree.  Why then, the term "grafted in"?  No one would NEED to be "grafted in" if we all start life already attached. 

Samie's question is like asking if one was a branch on the tree, before one believed. 

Paul says that Gentiles (before they believed in the risen Christ) were: "separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world". (Eph 2:12 NIV)  "without God" does NOT sound like already "saved" - to me. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/16/2015 at 5:40 PM, Samie said:

And don't forget to answer this: Who were branches of the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off? 

"I have called your name Green Olive Tree" (Jeremiah 16:11).  This is the passage Paul was using to support his analogy in Romans Chapter 11.

If Green Olive Tree is the NAME God gave to His own, then perhaps we need a definition of "Israel". 

The definition of Israel, depends upon your CONTEXT.  "Israel" was a man.  It was the descendants of that man.  It was the name of the 10 Northern Tribes.  It was the name used of themselves by Judah, after the 10 tribes were taken by Assyria.  It was the name used of themselves, by the captives returning from Babylon.  It was the name used of themselves, by Jews in the days of Christ.  It is the name of a geopolitical nation today.  It is the name used for themselves, by Jews worldwide today.  It is also the name of believers in Yeshua.  And it is the name of God's redeemed. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/16/2015 at 9:18 PM, Samie said:

Hi Teresa;

Who is the one new man?

The "new man" is the body of believers (in Christ) - consisting of Jews, Gentiles, males, females, slaves, and free persons. 

[Samie]

On 15/01/2017 at 8:00 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

Romans 11:16 says "the root" is "holy".  That means "the root" of the Olive Tree was/is the Son of God. 

The TREE represents Israel.  (Jeremiah 11:16).   But Israel consists of those "in Christ" (either pre-incarnate or post-incarnation).   The branches receive nourishment from "the root".  Branches are broken off "because of unbelief" and new branches are "grafted in" because of belief.

"grafted in" because of belief? I beg to disagree because I guess there is no verse that says that.

 

On 15/01/2017 at 8:00 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

If Samie's theory is correct, then every person begins life attached to the tree.  Why then, the term "grafted in"?  No one would NEED to be "grafted in" if we all start life already attached. 

The olive tree is Israel, not Christ. All are born in Christ.

In Christ's parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, all three started out NOT lost. Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was with his father.  So with us all.  We begin life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.  Therefore, born in Christ instead of born in sin.

But we all, like sheep, went astray (Isa 53:6). Hence, God now commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). The same command God issued in the OT (Ezek 18:30); the same command Jesus made in the gospel that He preached (Mark 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again. Repent or perish, as the Savior said (Luke 13:3, 5).

[Samie]

On 15/01/2017 at 8:27 AM, 8thdaypriest said:

The "new man" is the body of believers (in Christ) - consisting of Jews, Gentiles, males, females, slaves, and free persons. 

I have a different idea of the "new man". 

A "man" has both head and body. Hence, the "new man" is composed of Christ the Head, humanity the body.

People are born in Christ and remains part of His Body UNLESS & UNTIL his name is blotted out by Jesus from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good.

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, Samie said:

The olive tree is Israel, not Christ. All are born in Christ.

In Christ's parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, all three started out NOT lost. Before the sheep got lost, it was with its shepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was with his father.  So with us all.  We begin life NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ.  Therefore, born in Christ instead of born in sin.

Samie, 

Please READ my post.  I SAID that "the tree" is Israel.  I also said "the ROOT of that TREE is Christ".

As for the lost coin, lost sheep, and lost son:  These may represent former Israelites.  They (or their fathers) were ONCE ATTACHED to the Tree, but were "broken off" because of "unbelief".    Remember:  Paul said God is able to "graft them in again" IF they did not "continue in unbelief". 

Thousands of Israelites were scattered and assimilated by Middle Eastern nations when Assyria conquered the 10 Northern Tribes.  Thousands of others rejected Christ and were "broken off" from the TREE. 

IF you start the TREE with Adam/Eve, then they would be the first ones "broken off" - needing to be "grafted in again".  Adam/Eve may have begun "in Christ" but after the other "tree" incident, their descendants began life apart from God.  If you start "the TREE" that far back, then every descendant of Adam, would begin life needing to be "grafted in" to draw nourishment from the HOLY ROOT. 

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, Samie said:

I have a different idea of the "new man". 

A "man" has both head and body. Hence, the "new man" is composed of Christ the Head, humanity the body.

People are born in Christ and remains part of His Body UNLESS & UNTIL his name is blotted out by Jesus from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good.

How many times do we have to point out that "the church" is "His body" - NOT all of humanity. 

Christ is "the head" - yes. 

Colossians 1:18 “He is the head of the body, the church” (NRS).

Colossians 1:24 “Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the church.”

Ephesians 5:23 “For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which he is the Savior” (NIV).

Ephesians 5:30 & 32 “For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. . . .      This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church” (NKJ).

[Samie]

12 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie, 

Please READ my post.  I SAID that "the tree" is Israel.  I also said "the ROOT of that TREE is Christ".

As for the lost coin, lost sheep, and lost son:  These may represent former Israelites.  They (or their fathers) were ONCE ATTACHED to the Tree, but were "broken off" because of "unbelief".    Remember:  Paul said God is able to "graft them in again" IF they did not "continue in unbelief". 

Thousands of Israelites were scattered and assimilated by Middle Eastern nations when Assyria conquered the 10 Northern Tribes.  Thousands of others rejected Christ and were "broken off" from the TREE. 

IF you start the TREE with Adam/Eve, then they would be the first ones "broken off" - needing to be "grafted in again".  Adam/Eve may have begun "in Christ" but after the other "tree" incident, their descendants began life apart from God.  If you start "the TREE" that far back, then every descendant of Adam, would begin life needing to be "grafted in" to draw nourishment from the HOLY ROOT. 

I'm sorry if you felt I did not read your post. But I did. 

I simply reiterated that the olive tree is Israel, NOT Christ.  I have no question of Christ being the root, since without the root the tree is lifeless, Christ being our life (Col 3:4).  But it is an entirely different story to be in Christ, and to be grafted in the tree - Israel.  A person can be in Christ, without being in the tree - Israel.

There was yet no Israel - the tree - in Adam's time. So, we cannot start the tree analogy from Adam. 

Again, I believe God saved Adam through Christ that same day he fell into sin by implementing the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ.  That saving act of God was revealed in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Savior and Lord.

Hence, people begin life in Christ.  Being in Christ, they can believe, etc.  But we all like sheep went astray. Hence, God's command for all to repent (Acts 17:30).

IMO, to teach that people begin life NOT in Christ and to be in Him they must first believe, is to preach a gospel that saves no one. Here's why:

If one is NOT in Christ, he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. If one cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  If one cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe. If one cannot believe then he cannot be in Christ as taught by many.  It follows that one not in Christ remains not in Christ.  Hence, this brand of gospel saves no one.

[Samie]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

How many times do we have to point out that "the church" is "His body" - NOT all of humanity. 

Christ is "the head" - yes. 

Colossians 1:18 “He is the head of the body, the church” (NRS).

 

Scriptures tell us that Jesus gave His life for the church:

Ephesians 5:25  Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

 

Therefore, His Body - the church - is composed of all whom Jesus died for.

 

Scriptures tell us that Jesus died for all:

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15  

14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 

15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Scriptures tell us that the "all" Jesus died for is "every man":

Hebrews 2:9   But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Therefore, every man is in the body of Christ - the church, UNTIL one’s name is blotted out by Christ from the book of life. 

Overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him on His throne even as He also overcame and sat down with the Father on His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).  All not blotted out will have their portion in the kingdom of heaven (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).