What came first: the giving of faith, or, the act of believing?

[Samie]

I agree with the concept of what you are calling the 1st Dimension, and the 2nd Dimension but where I see an issue is where to put what.  That is, what does in the 1st Dimension?  I think we can agree that the work of Christ goes there, so what Christ accomplished in His life, death and resurrection goes there.

In the 2nd Dimension goes our participation.

The Bible teaches the following:

1.If we believe in Christ with our heart, we will be justified (this is Romans 10:10)

2.If we believe on the name of Christ, which is to receive Him (this is using the language of John), we will become sons of God (John 1:12).

3.If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9).

4.The Holy Spirit is received by faith when we believe in Christ.  The Holy Spirit, when we receive Christ, testifies that we are children of God.

 

From what I've read of what you've written in the past, you seem to be putting only overcoming evil with good in what you call the 2nd Dimension, but these items 1 through 4 also belong there. #2 is

We agree on that. The 4 are in the 2nd Dimension because it involves the application of what God did FOR man in the past. For me, all 4 involve overcoming evil with good.  Believing & receiving Christ specified in #'s 1, 2 & 4 is overcoming the evil of unbelief and of rejecting Christ.  #3 is overcoming the evil of non-acknowledgement of sin done. 

The disagreement comes when the 4 are made requisites for becoming part of the Body of Christ, for reasons I have already explained.  I believe it is in the 1st Dimension where God through Christ fashioned everyone into the Body of Christ.

When I spoke of the importance of the will, I spoke of in terms of being justified by faith.  Adventists have always taught, in contrast with Calvinists for example, that to be justified by faith involves an act of the will.  This is an area where you are disagreeing with Adventism, because you say, as I understand you, that everyone has been justified by faith by what Christ did.

I guess that is what these verses say:

^NAS Romans 5:17   ¹⁷ For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.  ¹⁸ So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

As for individual justification in the 2nd Dimension, that occurs for an individual the instant he commits sin: He is spontaneously justified, because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25). The sin he had just committed is not counted against him (2 Cor 5:19, 20), that sin having been forgiven at the cross (Col 2:13), under the auspices of the 1st Dimension.

[pnattmbtc]

Me: I agree with the concept of what you are calling the 1st Dimension, and the 2nd Dimension but where I see an issue is where to put what.  That is, what does in the 1st Dimension?  I think we can agree that the work of Christ goes there, so what Christ accomplished in His life, death and resurrection goes there.

In the 2nd Dimension goes our participation.

The Bible teaches the following:

1.If we believe in Christ with our heart, we will be justified (this is Romans 10:10)

2.If we believe on the name of Christ, which is to receive Him (this is using the language of John), we will become sons of God (John 1:12).

3.If we confess our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9).

4.The Holy Spirit is received by faith when we believe in Christ.  The Holy Spirit, when we receive Christ, testifies that we are children of God.

 

From what I've read of what you've written in the past, you seem to be putting only overcoming evil with good in what you call the 2nd Dimension, but these items 1 through 4 also belong there. #2 is

We agree on that. The 4 are in the 2nd Dimension because it involves the application of what God did FOR man in the past. For me, all 4 involve overcoming evil with good.  Believing & receiving Christ specified in #'s 1, 2 & 4 is overcoming the evil of unbelief and of rejecting Christ.  #3 is overcoming the evil of non-acknowledgement of sin done. 

Samie: The disagreement comes when the 4 are made requisites for becoming part of the Body of Christ, for reasons I have already explained.  I believe it is in the 1st Dimension where God through Christ fashioned everyone into the Body of Christ.

In every place in Scripture which speaks of the body of Christ, the context is believers.  It is believers which constitute the body of Christ.  This is what "body of Christ" means.  This is so well known and understood, you can find it in Wiki!

In Christian theology, the term Body of Christ has two separate connotations: it may refer to Jesus's statement about the Eucharist at the Last Supper that "This is my body" in Luke 22:19-20, or the explicit usage of the term by the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians to refer to the Christian Church...

Saint Paul the Apostle spoke of this unity of Christians with Christ, referred to in the New Testament also in images such as that of the vine and the branches,[9] in terms of a single body that has Christ as its head in Romans 12:5,1 Corinthians 12:12-27, Ephesians 3:6 and 5:23, Colossians 1:18 and 1:24.

If we look at the 1 Cor. text, we can see Wiki is correct:

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit....26If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together with it....

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. 

We can see this refers to believers, as these are they who have been baptized, and have spiritual gifts.

     17 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:
When I spoke of the importance of the will, I spoke of in terms of being justified by faith.  Adventists have always taught, in contrast with Calvinists for example, that to be justified by faith involves an act of the will.  This is an area where you are disagreeing with Adventism, because you say, as I understand you, that everyone has been justified by faith by what Christ did.

I guess that is what these verses say:

NAS Romans 5:17   17 For if by the one man's offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.  18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

This is a difficult text, with many interpretations, one of the most controverted in Scripture.  As I wrote previously, the accepted procedure is to use uncontroverted texts as the foundation, and then interpret controverted texts in the light of that.  For example, the following is an uncontroverted text:

For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. (Romans 10:10)

This is written by the same author, in the same letter, and there is no controversy as to what this verse means.  When one believes with the heart, one is justified.  This is justification by faith.  Whatever Paul is intending to say in Romans 5:17-18 must be in harmony with what Paul wrote here.  How do you reocncile these two?  Your idea of Romans 5:17-18, as I understand it, would have to set aside Romans 10:10, so would seem to be false on the face of it.

As for individual justification in the 2nd Dimension, that occurs for an individual the instant he commits sin: He is spontaneously justified, because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25). 

There is no such thing as "spontaneous justification".  In 1 John 1:9 we read,

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Yes, Jesus was raised for our justification, but what does this mean?  It means Jesus was raised so that we could be justified by faith.  I think this is a universal reading of this text (outside of yourself, of course).  For example, let's see what Waggoner has to say.

The righteousness which was imputed to Abraham will be imputed to us also if we believe on him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead. Therefore it follows that righteousness was imputed to Abraham because of his faith in the resurrection of the dead, which comes only through Jesus. Acts 4:2. That was what the apostles preached the promises to the fathers. The power by which a man is made righteous is the power of the resurrection. See Philippians 3:9-11. This power of the resurrection, which works righteousness in a man, is the surety of the final resurrection to immortality at the last day by which he enters upon his inheritance.

He has quite a lot to say on this text.  I just quoted a small amount.  It can be found here: http://www.1888mpm.org/book/romans-chapter-4-believing-god-s-tremendous-promise.

This is actually quite an interesting verse, and A. Graham Maxwell discusses it in depth here: http://www.pineknoll.org/audio-resources?media_group=MMROMANS66&show_dropdown=0.  This is a great site if you like listening (these are recorded talks).

Samie: The sin he had just committed is not counted against him (2 Cor 5:19, 20), that sin having been forgiven at the cross (Col 2:13), under the auspices of the 1st Dimension.

One thing you're not discussing, and I don't recall your ever discussing this, is repentance.  There must be repentance on the part of the offending party.  There is a tremendous amount of Scritpure on this point.  I don't know why you think that there can be forgiveness without repentance.  What do you think the role of repentance is on the part of the sinner?

To mention a few texts that come to mind off the top of my head, Psalm 51, The parable of the Publican and the Pharisee, The parable of the prodigal son.  Romans 2:4 tells us that the goodness of God leads us to repentance.  What do you think this means?  Do you think repentance is necessary?  If so, why?

 

[pnattmbtc]

More on Romans 4.  Here's the context:

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.

19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:

20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

 

5 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

 

Of course the Chapter divisions are not inspired, and here I think a poor choice was made, as Romans 5:1 should not be the start of a new chapter, as it is right in the middle of a thought.  If one looks at these verse, one can see it's all about the participation of the believer, about what happens when one exercises faith.  Abraham is used as an example, and Paul goes in detail on this point.  There is no idea whatsoever of something happening "spontaneously" apart from the faith of the believer.  It's like you took a portion of a verse without any consideration at all of what comes either before or after what you're looking at.  That's no way to understand Scripture.

[Samie]

In every place in Scripture which speaks of the body of Christ, the context is believers.  It is believers which constitute the body of Christ.  This is what "body of Christ" means.  This is so well known and understood, you can find it in Wiki!

In Christian theology, the term Body of Christ has two separate connotations: it may refer to Jesus's statement about the Eucharist at the Last Supper that "This is my body" in Luke 22:19-20, or the explicit usage of the term by the Apostle Paul in I Corinthians to refer to the Christian Church...

Saint Paul the Apostle spoke of this unity of Christians with Christ, referred to in the New Testament also in images such as that of the vine and the branches,[9] in terms of a single body that has Christ as its head in Romans 12:5,1 Corinthians 12:12-27, Ephesians 3:6 and 5:23, Colossians 1:18 and 1:24.

If we look at the 1 Cor. text, we can see Wiki is correct:

We can see this refers to believers, as these are they who have been baptized, and have spiritual gifts.

This is written by the same author, in the same letter, and there is no controversy as to what this verse means.  When one believes with the heart, one is justified.  This is justification by faith.  Whatever Paul is intending to say in Romans 5:17-18 must be in harmony with what Paul wrote here.  How do you reocncile these two?  Your idea of Romans 5:17-18, as I understand it, would have to set aside Romans 10:10, so would seem to be false on the face of it.

As for individual justification in the 2nd Dimension, that occurs for an individual the instant he commits sin: He is spontaneously justified, because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25). 

There is no such thing as "spontaneous justification".  In 1 John 1:9 we read,

Yes, Jesus was raised for our justification, but what does this mean?  It means Jesus was raised so that we could be justified by faith.  I think this is a universal reading of this text (outside of yourself, of course).  For example, let's see what Waggoner has to say.

He has quite a lot to say on this text.  I just quoted a small amount.  It can be found here: http://www.1888mpm.org/book/romans-chapter-4-believing-god-s-tremendous-promise.

This is actually quite an interesting verse, and A. Graham Maxwell discusses it in depth here: http://www.pineknoll.org/audio-resources?media_group=MMROMANS66&show_dropdown=0.  This is a great site if you like listening (these are recorded talks).

On the cross, God through Christ created a new Man: Christ the Head, Jews and Gentiles the Body.  That Body was brought to existence on the cross (Eph 2:11-19) before anybody was ever called a Christian (Acts 11:26).  The crucifixion took place when apostle Paul was not yet a believer yet Paul said he was crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20): and we all were, because Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). I believe we are part of His Body UNTIL Christ Himself detaches us from it by blotting our names from the Book of Life. But overcomers will not be blotted out from it (Rev 3:5).

[Samie]

One thing you're not discussing, and I don't recall your ever discussing this, is repentance.  There must be repentance on the part of the offending party.  There is a tremendous amount of Scritpure on this point.  I don't know why you think that there can be forgiveness without repentance.  What do you think the role of repentance is on the part of the sinner?

To mention a few texts that come to mind off the top of my head, Psalm 51, The parable of the Publican and the Pharisee, The parable of the prodigal son.  Romans 2:4 tells us that the goodness of God leads us to repentance.  What do you think this means?  Do you think repentance is necessary?  If so, why?

I had been discussing repentance but it seemed to have appeared incognito.

Repentance (Gr meta,noia) is a change of mind. Instead of deciding to do evil, it is deciding to do good. Repentance is overcoming evil with good. And I think you will long remember Samie as one of the posters in this forum who emphasized overcoming evil with good.

[teresaq]

Interesting concept, Christ is the Head and His body are Jews and Gentiles. Are you saying this is literal or the church and Christ as stated in Ephesians?

[Samie]

Interesting concept, Christ is the Head and His body are Jews and Gentiles. Are you saying this is literal or the church and Christ as stated in Ephesians?

For me, anything and everything we discuss about the gospel is spiritual. Yes, the Body of Christ created on the cross, is the Church (Eph 5:23; Col 1:18). Again, that Body was brought into existence on the cross BEFORE any single person was ever called a Christian.

[pnattmbtc]

On the cross, God through Christ created a new Man: Christ the Head, Jews and Gentiles the Body.  That Body was brought to existence on the cross (Eph 2:11-19) before anybody was ever called a Christian (Acts 11:26).  The crucifixion took place when apostle Paul was not yet a believer yet Paul said he was crucified with Christ (Gal 2:20): and we all were, because Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9). I believe we are part of His Body UNTIL Christ Himself detaches us from it by blotting our names from the Book of Life. But overcomers will not be blotted out from it (Rev 3:5).

You're jumping around a lot here.  Can you develop a thought based on a single passage?  You shouldn't have to jump hither and yon picking single verses, or parts of verses, to establish a thought.  This isn't the way the Bible authors wrote, nor is it how anybody thinks.  We think in chunks.

Paul, for example, spent several chapters in Romans to develop his ideas of justification by faith.

Regarding the body of Christ, the text I presented from Corinthians shows that the body of Christ consists of believers.  So that's a starting point.

Regarding Galatians 2:20, if your idea were correct, Paul would have written "I *was* crucified with Christ", right?

[pnattmbtc]

For me, anything and everything we discuss about the gospel is spiritual. Yes, the Body of Christ created on the cross, is the Church (Eph 5:23; Col 1:18). Again, that Body was brought into existence on the cross BEFORE any single person was ever called a Christian.

In 1 Corinthians, we see the Paul perceived the body of Christ as consisting of believers.  What you're claiming doesn't match how Paul actually thought.

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13For in the one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and we were all made to drink of one Spirit....26If one member suffers, all suffer together with it; if one member is honoured, all rejoice together with it....

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers; then deeds of power, then gifts of healing, forms of assistance, forms of leadership, various kinds of tongues. 

The body consists of people who believe in Christ, and do things only believers can do. 

[Samie]

You're jumping around a lot here.  Can you develop a thought based on a single passage?  You shouldn't have to jump hither and yon picking single verses, or parts of verses, to establish a thought.  This isn't the way the Bible authors wrote, nor is it how anybody thinks.  We think in chunks.

Paul, for example, spent several chapters in Romans to develop his ideas of justification by faith.

Regarding the body of Christ, the text I presented from Corinthians shows that the body of Christ consists of believers.  So that's a starting point.

Regarding Galatians 2:20, if your idea were correct, Paul would have written "I *was* crucified with Christ", right?

^NKJ Galatians 2:19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. ²⁰ "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

[Samie]

Is it WRONG to say that the Body of Christ was created on the cross, brother?

[Samie]

If your answer is Yes to my question, then when was the Body of Christ created?

Edited October 16, 2015 by Samie

[Samie]

Every Christian denomination now TEACHES that their religious denomination is the CHURCH of Scriptures. The wall of separation torn down by the Savior on the cross reared up again. How sad . . .

[pnattmbtc]

^NKJ Galatians 2:19 "For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. ²⁰ "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

 

Correct.  Should be "was" to agree with you.  

[Samie]

Correct.  Should be "was" to agree with you.  

And "have been" too.

[pnattmbtc]

Is it WRONG to say that the Body of Christ was created on the cross, brother?

Yes, your idea is wrong.  The body of Christ consists of those who believe in Christ.  Abraham is the father of all who believe, according to Paul.  Paul, throughout his writings keeps pointing to Abraham.  If your idea were correct, why would Paul be using Abraham as *the* example of justification by faith?

Think of the tree illustration that Paul uses in Romans 9.  The tree (another metaphor for the body of Christ) already existed, but entities were moved on or off according to what?  According to faith.

[Samie]

Yes, your idea is wrong.  The body of Christ consists of those who believe in Christ.  Abraham is the father of all who believe, according to Paul.  Paul, throughout his writings keeps pointing to Abraham.  If your idea were correct, why would Paul be using Abraham as *the* example of justification by faith?

Think of the tree illustration that Paul uses in Romans 9.  The tree (another metaphor for the body of Christ) already existed, but entities were moved on or off according to what?  According to faith.

So, when was the Body of Christ created, if not on the cross?

[pnattmbtc]

And "have been" too.

No, "have been" is no good for your idea.  It would need to be a completed action in the past, which could be translated "was", but no translation has this translation.   The is because the Greek is a perfect indicative middle/passive, which doesn't agree with your idea.  The Portuguese has "Já estou crucificado com Cristo" which is "I am crucified with Christ."  I looked at French, Spanish, and Italian as well, as these are all similar to the Portuguese.  No translations has "was" in any language.

[Samie]

Yes, your idea is wrong.  The body of Christ consists of those who believe in Christ.  Abraham is the father of all who believe, according to Paul.  Paul, throughout his writings keeps pointing to Abraham.  If your idea were correct, why would Paul be using Abraham as *the* example of justification by faith?

Think of the tree illustration that Paul uses in Romans 9.  The tree (another metaphor for the body of Christ) already existed, but entities were moved on or off according to what?  According to faith.

So who was the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off?  The analogy you use proves you are wrong again, my brother.

[pnattmbtc]

So, when was the Body of Christ created, if not on the cross?

From the Spirit of Prophecy, "as soon as there was sin, there was a Savior."  From the foundations of the world, the plan had been thought of (Revelation 13:8). 

[pnattmbtc]

So who was the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off?  The analogy you use proves you are wrong again, my brother.

Wait a moment.  Paul wrote this in Romans 9.  It's not my analogy.  Do you mean to say that the analogy proves Paul was wrong?

Edited October 16, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

Wait a moment.  Paul wrote this in Romans 9.  It's not my analogy.  Do you mean to say that the analogy proves Paul was wrong?

You are wrong again. First wrong in the chapter and wrong in its application.

[Samie]

So who were branches of the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off?  The analogy you use proves you are wrong again, my brother.

[pnattmbtc]

Every Christian denomination now TEACHES that their religious denomination is the CHURCH of Scriptures.

You are misinformed here.  Read the Wiki article.

The wall of separation torn down by the Savior on the cross reared up again. How sad . . .

I agree with the sentiment, but wonder what you have in mind.  The wall is torn down *by faith* when people accept Christ as their Lord. 

[Samie]

And you have not yet answered this question: When was the Body of Christ created, if not on the cross?