What came first: the giving of faith, or, the act of believing?

[Samie]

LOL It looks to me that what was said, was read to say, what it did not say. LOL  Seems to be a rather common SDA habit. 

P said everyone who has reasoning powers. Nowhere did he say God gives....

If God did not give you the reasoning powers, who did?

I believe Christ when He said apart from Him man can do NOTHING. If I have any power, that power is His in the first place. With the apostle Paul I may likewise say, I can do all things through Christ, Who is the Power of God. Anyone who is part of the Body uses the power of the Head of the Body. Being part of His Body, the power I use is His.

[teresaq]

I'm not sure what part of my post confused you into a different point. Could you be kind enough to trace it back? LOL

Edited October 17, 2015 by teresaq

[Samie]

If God did not give you the reasoning powers, who did?

I believe Christ when He said apart from Him man can do NOTHING. If I have any power, that power is His in the first place. With the apostle Paul I may likewise say, I can do all things through Christ, Who is the Power of God. Anyone who is part of the Body uses the power of the Head of the Body. Being part of His Body, the power I use is His.

I'm not sure what part of my post confused you into a different point. Could you be kind enough to trace it back? LOL

You seem to be confused with your own post. It's this: "P said everyone who has reasoning powers. Nowhere did he say God gives...."

That prompted me to ask if God did not give, who did?

[Samie]

Hi Teresa;

You quoted AT Jones:

Let us look that over again. “Having abolished in His flesh the enmity.” Now omitting the next clause (We are not studying that in this lesson.), what did He abolish that enmity for? What did He break down that middle wall of partition for? Why? “for to make in Himself of twain one new man, so making peace.” Does Christ make a new man out of a Jew and a Gentile? No. Out of a heathen and somebody else? No. Out of one heathen and another heathen? No. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 193.14}

God makes one new man out of God and a man. And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one. {GCB/GCDB 1895, p. 193.15}

I have already stated my view that the One New Man created on the cross is Jesus the Head, Jews and Gentiles the Body. The Head and the Body comprise the One New Man.

Since AT Jones is not around to defend his statements, and you are the one who posted them: In reference to Eph 2, when Jones said "God makes one new man out of God and a man", what do you think he meant? Who is the one new man?

[pnattmbtc]

But you responded:

Here's your post where you said God gave everyone that ability:

Look at what I said, and what you said I said, and you will see they are not the same (you do this with Paul too!)

[Samie]

That the one new man composed of Head and Body created on the cross, refers to Jesus as Head, Jews & Gentiles as Body is evident from these verses:

^NKJ Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

^NKJ Ephesians 2:11-16   

¹¹ Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands -- 

 

¹² that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 

 

¹³ But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 

 

¹⁴ For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 

 

¹⁵ having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 

 

¹⁶ and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

 Who are the two reconciled in one body? Yes: the Circumcision (Jews) and the Uncircumcision (Gentiles), verse 11.

[pnattmbtc]

For me, A.T Jones had the best understanding that made the most sense.  Yes it is a bit lengthy.

I quoted this same sermon!  Did you also quote this independently, or did you get the idea from me?  It's not important, but it would be pretty cool if you also independently posted the same sermon I did on the same subject.  I wholeheartedly agree.  I always thought this was a difficult passage to understand until I read what Jones said, and then it seemed simple.  What a privilege it would have been to have heard him speak in person!  Thank God, his sermons have been preserved for us.

[Samie]

Look at what I said, and what you said I said, and you will see they are not the same (you do this with Paul too!)

Thank you for reminding me, brother. But what you failed to point out is that what you posted and what I said you posted simply mean the same.

[Samie]

Thank you for reminding me, brother. But what you failed to point out is that what you posted and what I said you posted simply mean the same.

You posted ability to respond; I posted ability to reason. But I stand corrected. I simply recalled from memory what you posted. And it turned out to be not in its exact wording.

But then, you cannot reason without responding, right?

[pnattmbtc]

Hi Teresa;

You quoted AT Jones:

I have already stated my view that the One New Man created on the cross is Jesus the Head, Jews and Gentiles the Body. The Head and the Body comprise the One New Man.

Since AT Jones is not around to defend his statements, and you are the one who posted them: In reference to Eph 2, when Jones said "God makes one new man out of God and a man", what do you think he meant? Who is the one new man?

Just read the sermon!  Jones doesn't have to defend his statements, because he was very clear in what he said!  

I can sum it up for you.  Jones went back to Eden, and explained what happened when Adam and Eve believed the lie that the enemy presented, that God did not have their best interest at heart and was not to be trusted, which was receiving the mind of Satan, the enmity.  This is the enmity, the principle of sin, to distrust God and His word.

In order to build back trust, to win man back to trust and friendship, God sent His only Son, who knew Him best. to show us what God is really like.  When be believe the truth that Christ so gloriously revealed, we are transformed into the same image, and set free, as knowing the truth, sets us free.  To know God is life eternal.

This is how we are reconciled to God.  

 

 18 All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also. 19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ.[a]God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.

20 Here we are, then, speaking for Christ, as though God himself were making his appeal through us. We plead on Christ's behalf: let God change you from enemies into his friends!

 

This is from the GNT.  I hadn't noticed this translation of this passage before.  It's beautiful!  The message of Christ, of His cross, makes us God's friends!  This is the message we are to give to unbelievers, what a wonderful God God is, who has given His all, all that can be given, in order to win us back to trust and friendship.

If two people are at odds with one another, the only way to true and permanent peace is to both to become right with God, and then, as a direct consequence, they will become right with one another, because it is impossible to set right with God, the principle of whose kingdom is to love your enemies, and not be right with another who is a servant of Christ.

This, in a nutshell, is the message of Ephesians 2, which Jones eloquently explicated.

[Samie]

Just read the sermon!  Jones doesn't have to defend his statements, because he was very clear in what he said!  

I can sum it up for you.  Jones went back to Eden, and explained what happened when Adam and Eve believed the lie that the enemy presented, that God did not have their best interest at heart and was not to be trusted, which was receiving the mind of Satan, the enmity.  This is the enmity, the principle of sin, to distrust God and His word.

In order to build back trust, to win man back to trust and friendship, God sent His only Son, who knew Him best. to show us what God is really like.  When be believe the truth that Christ so gloriously revealed, we are transformed into the same image, and set free, as knowing the truth, sets us free.  To know God is life eternal.

This is how we are reconciled to God.  

 

 18 All this is done by God, who through Christ changed us from enemies into his friends and gave us the task of making others his friends also. 19 Our message is that God was making all human beings his friends through Christ.[a]God did not keep an account of their sins, and he has given us the message which tells how he makes them his friends.

20 Here we are, then, speaking for Christ, as though God himself were making his appeal through us. We plead on Christ's behalf: let God change you from enemies into his friends!

 

This is from the GNT.  I hadn't noticed this translation of this passage before.  It's beautiful!  The message of Christ, of His cross, makes us God's friends!  This is the message we are to give to unbelievers, what a wonderful God God is, who has given His all, all that can be given, in order to win us back to trust and friendship.

If two people are at odds with one another, the only way to true and permanent peace is to both to become right with God, and then, as a direct consequence, they will become right with one another, because it is impossible to set right with God, the principle of whose kingdom is to love your enemies, and not be right with another who is a servant of Christ.

This, in a nutshell, is the message of Ephesians 2, which Jones eloquently explicated.

You are simply stuck in the habit of answering a question that is not asked. Answer the question directly, please. Who do you think is the one new man Jones was referring to? Don't send me into a wild-goose-chase for what you think Jones meant.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, a true Jew is one who is one inwardly.  The olive tree, which is Israel, is spiritual Israel, which were, and are, and always has been, those who believe in Christ.  This has always been the case, ever since there was sin, and the need of a Savior.  Paul teaches this all over the place.  Paul, in the Romans passage, explained that connection to the tree was by faith, and that by unbelief one is cut off.  Only those who believe in Christ are a part of Israel (the one which counts), which is why Abraham is the father of all who believe, and the poster child of righteousness by faith.

The promises are all in Christ, and it is those who are in Christ (those who believe on His name, those who receive Him as their Savior) who partake.  This is no way changed at the cross.

The cross was the means by which God accomplishes making us His friends, at first in types and shadows, and finally in flesh and blood, but it is not the timing by which these things happened, or else there would be no such thing as a righteous or saved person before the cross.

[Samie]

You answered for Teresa, but you have not yet responded to my earlier question.

Here again, and for the 5th time: Who were the branches of the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off? 

[pnattmbtc]

That the one new man composed of Head and Body created on the cross, refers to Jesus as Head, Jews & Gentiles as Body is evident from these verses:

^NKJ Colossians 1:18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

^NKJ Ephesians 2:11-16   

¹¹ Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh -- who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands -- 

 

¹² that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 

 

¹³ But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 

 

¹⁴ For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, 

 

¹⁵ having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace, 

 

¹⁶ and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

 Who are the two reconciled in one body? Yes: the Circumcision (Jews) and the Uncircumcision (Gentiles), verse 11.

 

A Jew and Gentile are only reconciled to each other if they are each reconciled to God by Christ.  The cross is the means of reconciliation by revelation.  When the truth the cross reveals is believed, then those who believe are reconciled to God, and to others.

[Samie]

A Jew and Gentile are only reconciled to each other if they are each reconciled to God by Christ.  The cross is the means of reconciliation by revelation.  When the truth the cross reveals is believed, then those who believe are reconciled to God, and to others.

Forgotten so readily DA 638 you quoted somewhere else in another thread?

[pnattmbtc]

You answered for Teresa, but you have not yet responded to my earlier question.

Here again, and for the 5th time: Who were the branches of the original tree? Were they believers? When did they become part of the original tree? When were they cut off? 

Are you need reading what I'm writing?  Do you not understand the words coming out of my mouth?  I've been answering the question.  I don't get how you don't understand that the posts I'm writing are answering your question.

For the 5th time (or more) the tree consists of believers, and so, they become a part of the tree when they believe (of course), and are cut off by unbelief (for which I quoted you chapter and verse).

[pnattmbtc]

Forgotten so readily DA 638 you quoted somewhere else in another thread?

No idea what you're wanting to say here, but do not see the sense that if you and are at at odds together, that the only lasting peace will come if we each give our hearts to Christ?  Are you disagreeing with this?

[pnattmbtc]

Paul's whole theology, which he articulates at great length in Romans and Galatians, is that is only by faith in Christ that we have any part in the covenant promises which God gave to Abraham.  For example, from Galatians 3:

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

 

 

21 Is the law then contrary to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could give life, then righteousness would indeed be by the law. 22 But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

 

 

Edited October 17, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

You are simply stuck in the habit of answering a question that is not asked. Answer the question directly, please. Who do you think is the one new man Jones was referring to? Don't send me into a wild-goose-chase for what you think Jones meant.

I'm answering the question, and explaining the Gospel.  Understanding the Gospel is the important thing.  Let's not lose sight of this as we're discussing questions.  Do you not see the beauty in the things you are reading?  (Hopefully you're reading the posts, including Jones' sermon).

[pnattmbtc]

God makes one new man out of God and a man. And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one.(Jones)

[pnattmbtc]

You posted ability to respond; I posted ability to reason. But I stand corrected. I simply recalled from memory what you posted. And it turned out to be not in its exact wording.

But then, you cannot reason without responding, right?

They are two completely different concepts.  You have a tendency to read into what you are reading what you think people are saying instead of what they are not saying.  If you would ask yourself what is the intent of the author, that would help.  This is why I'm suggesting trying to read whole paragraphs, rather than picking out sentences, or worse, portions of sentence, or, even worse, single words.  This isn't a good methodology.  You have done this with me, with A. T. Jones,, in addition to Scripture.

Edited October 17, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[pnattmbtc]

Thank you for reminding me, brother. But what you failed to point out is that what you posted and what I said you posted simply mean the same.

They don't mean the same thing, which is why I knew instantly that I didn't say it.

[Samie]

This thread is titled What came first . . ., and you have already admitted that the giving of faith (for which you gave 2 definitions) came first, then I guess this thread has already bore the fruit the starter wants it to bear.

And since what you were trying to explain in your last posts are mere rehash of what has been, I am starting a new thread: Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[Gerr]

The chicken according to Gen 1.

[teresaq]

God makes one new man out of God and a man. And in Christ, God and man met so that they can be one.(Jones)

Christ abolished the enmity of man with God at the cross because it took the ultimate sacrifice of oneself to show how deep God's love for us is. Unless we choose to blow it off, nor recognize it, in various manners.  Is that how you see it P. or another view?