Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[pnattmbtc]

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Samie:By His death, we died. By His resurrection, we lived. All credit belongs to Him. I wonder why Pnatt wants to have a share in that credit by teaching that unless people believe, God could not do it for them.  Scriptures say we were made alive TOGETHER with Him, but Pnatt insists people are made alive when people believe.

Several problems here.  The first problem is that disagreeing with your interpretation implies that one wants to have a share in the credit that belongs to God.  This would include virtually every Christian alive or who has ever lived, as there is only one person I know of who believes as Samie does, and that's Samie.  So is it really your argument that everyone else, but you, wants to take credit for what God has done?  Surely it should be clear to you that one should be able to disagree with your interpretation of a verse without wanting to take credit for something God has done, don't you agree?

Secondly, I quoted references to support the conclusion I came to, and presented a well-reasoned argument, and presented Scripture to support my view.  You've ignored all of this, which you shouldn't have.  You should have the courtesy of addressing the points others make, as others do for you.

 

1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said:

This bring out how Paul conceives of death and life and the resurrection.  Paul applies being alive here and having the Spirit, and being made alive ("quicken") with being children of God, by faith in Christ.

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Samie: Funny, people can believe while dead?  Remember, all died when Christ died.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  15and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

 

This is an odd remark coming from you.  You've just been arguing that people who don't exist can die and be made alive.  If you think people who don't even exist can be made alive, why would you think it odd that a dead person should be able to believe?

 

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, here are three points I made you may respond to.  Thanks.

1.Paul emphasized throughout his writings the importance of faith.  For example, by faith we are justified, become heirs according to the promise, receive the Holy Spirit, who witnesses to us that we are children of God.  We are made spiritually alive when we believe, which is when we become children of God, and receive the Spirit, who testifies to this fact.  Romans 8, for example, but Paul speaks along these lines often.

2.In the passage itself, Paul speaks of being dead in tresspasses and sins in which you used to walk.  That is, Paul is referring to a specific class of people when he defines what it means to be spiritually alive, which is to not walk in trespasses and sins as one used to walk.  To have an idea that to be spiritually alive has nothing to do with how one is living is completely foreign to Paul's thought here.

3.To say many had been blotted out from the BOL for not overcoming evil with good is inaccurate as the verse does not state that the reason for being blotted out of the BOL is for not overcoming evil with good, but that those who do not overcome evil with good will be blotted out.  In other words, not overcoming is a symptom of the problem, but not the problem itself, which is not believing in Christ, as the following verse makes clear.

[Samie]

28 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

This sort of comment would be in line if I were suggesting that miracles were impossible, for example.  I'm not dismissing in any way God's ability to do things, or any spiritual realities, but am simply disagreeing with you on how a verse should be interpreted, and that we should exist in order to live or die is just one of the arguments.

You are the one interpreting. Samie is simply believing what the verse says. The verse tells us all died because Christ died for all. I believe what it says that when He died, all of us died. It's you who bombard me with your interpretations, that seem to reflect you want the Bible to say what you think it should have said but did not.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   ¹⁴ For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  ¹⁵and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

[Samie]

Pnatt, do you believe in what 2 Cor 5:14-15 say?  I believe you do, don't you?

[Samie]

33 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

1.Paul emphasized throughout his writings the importance of faith.  For example, by faith we are justified, become heirs according to the promise, receive the Holy Spirit, who witnesses to us that we are children of God.  We are made spiritually alive when we believe, which is when we become children of God, and receive the Spirit, who testifies to this fact.  Romans 8, for example, but Paul speaks along these lines often.

Sequence of events as per Bible:

1. All died when Christ died.  2 Cor 5:14-15; Heb 2:9

2. Made alive together with Christ when He resurrected.  Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13

3. Live for Him Who died for them and rose again. This is overcoming evil with good. 2 Cor 5:15; Rom 12:21

Our participation is in #3.  That's where we need faith, for without faith, we cannot please God (Heb 11:6).  #1 & #2 are all God's work FOR us through Christ.

[Samie]

45 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

2.In the passage itself, Paul speaks of being dead in tresspasses and sins in which you used to walk.  That is, Paul is referring to a specific class of people when he defines what it means to be spiritually alive, which is to not walk in trespasses and sins as one used to walk.  To have an idea that to be spiritually alive has nothing to do with how one is living is completely foreign to Paul's thought here.

I don't understand why you want me to address this when I have always emphasized that to be spiritually alive is to be able to do spiritual acts, and that should cover how one lives.  And this applies to all, having been made alive TOGETHER with Christ.

[Samie]

54 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

3.To say many had been blotted out from the BOL for not overcoming evil with good is inaccurate as the verse does not state that the reason for being blotted out of the BOL is for not overcoming evil with good, but that those who do not overcome evil with good will be blotted out.  In other words, not overcoming is a symptom of the problem, but not the problem itself, which is not believing in Christ, as the following verse makes clear.

Semantics, brother, semantics.  Hair-splitting, at its best.

Is the Bible inaccurate when it said that overcomers will not be blotted out from the BOL?  If it is accurate, and I believe it is, that tells me the reason why their names are not blotted out is because they have overcome evil with good.

And why would the reverse be NOT true?

To NOT believe in Christ is to NOT overcome the evil of unbelief.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said:

This is an odd remark coming from you.  You've just been arguing that people who don't exist can die and be made alive.  If you think people who don't even exist can be made alive, why would you think it odd that a dead person should be able to believe?

That's THE odd remarks, I guess.  It's Scriptures that tell us we ALL died when Christ died, and were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected. What's odd about that? It's not me arguing, but me simply believing. Even if you don't think about it, nor believe it, it's true.

And Yes, It is odd that people while dead can believe, because that idea only exists in your mind, brother, not in the Bible.  Can you show even one verse?

[pnattmbtc]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

You are the one interpreting. Samie is simply believing what the verse says. The verse tells us all died because Christ died for all. I believe what it says that when He died, all of us died. It's you who bombard me with your interpretations, that seem to reflect you want the Bible to say what you think it should have said but did not.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   ¹⁴ For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  ¹⁵and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Why don't you believe what Paul says a couple of verse later?  "Be ye reconciled to God?"  I'm simply believing what the verse says.

The problem with your idea is:

1.It doesn't make logical sense

2.It contradicts what Paul says a couple of verses later

3.It contradicts what Paul says throughout his writings.

4.It contradicts other Bible writers.

You yourself know and admit this!! You admit that your idea contradicts John, but then suggest that John needed correcting.  Why do you think Samie knows better than John?  Why doesn't Samie need correcting?

[pnattmbtc]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Pnatt, do you believe in what 2 Cor 5:14-15 say?  I believe you do, don't you?

Do you believe what 2 Cor. 5:19,20 says?  I believe you do, don't you?

I haven't had to throw any and Bible writers, like John, to support my ideas.  Once you have to do this, you're admitting you don't believe the Bible, at least not completely, only when it suits you.  If you want to do this, fine, but if you do, what right to you have to make any claims that you are believing what the Bible says?

[pnattmbtc]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Sequence of events as per Bible:

1. All died when Christ died.  2 Cor 5:14-15; Heb 2:9

2. Made alive together with Christ when He resurrected.  Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13

3. Live for Him Who died for them and rose again. This is overcoming evil with good. 2 Cor 5:15; Rom 12:21

Our participation is in #3.  That's where we need faith, for without faith, we cannot please God (Heb 11:6).  #1 & #2 are all God's work FOR us through Christ.

The sequence is:

1.God so loved the world that He gave His only Son.

2.That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your #3 is a good point.  Our participation is #3.  However, what is missing from what you write (well, one of the things) is that we become children of God by believing.  This is what John 1:12 says.  Paul also teaches this in Romans 8.  What you write in 1 and 2 is also true, just not the way you are thinking of it.  For example, in Ephesians 3, you ignore the context.  I don't know why.  You not only ignore the context, when this is pointed out to you, you ignore that too.

[pnattmbtc]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

That's THE odd remarks, I guess.  It's Scriptures that tell us we ALL died when Christ died, and were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected. What's odd about that? It's not me arguing, but me simply believing. Even if you don't think about it, nor believe it, it's true.

And Yes, It is odd that people while dead can believe, because that idea only exists in your mind, brother, not in the Bible.  Can you show even one verse?

Samie, I wrote a long post, with many points, with references, and explanations, and all you do is simply repeat what you said before.  Please have the common courtesy to respond to the points made.

[pnattmbtc]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

I don't understand why you want me to address this when I have always emphasized that to be spiritually alive is to be able to do spiritual acts, and that should cover how one lives.  And this applies to all, having been made alive TOGETHER with Christ.

I want you do address this (I'll have to repeat it, since it got lost in the quoting) because it makes clear your interpretation is incorrect.  What Paul writes is that you used to be dead in trespasses and sins, but were made alive together with Christ, dead in sins that you used to walk in, contrary those who continue to be dead.  So Paul is clear that unbelievers are dead, and believers are alive.  So your idea cannot be what Paul is saying, because he would have to be contradicting what he had just written.

[pnattmbtc]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

That's THE odd remarks, I guess.  It's Scriptures that tell us we ALL died when Christ died, and were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected. What's odd about that? It's not me arguing, but me simply believing. Even if you don't think about it, nor believe it, it's true.

And Yes, It is odd that people while dead can believe, because that idea only exists in your mind, brother, not in the Bible.  Can you show even one verse?

Sorry if a post was repeated.   This software is really bad.  I had a long post that disappeared and will have to try again, and I think had to repost something I had posted just to get back to where I could respond.  Anyway, there are many, many verses to cite.

First of all, there is Ephesians 2, right before the verse you are mentioning.  Paul said his readers were dead in trespasses and sins, but they believed in Christ, and were made alive. That's one.

John said that as many as received Christ an believed in His name would become sons of God.  That's two, since to become a son of God, one would have to be made alive.

John quoted Christ teaching that Nicodemus had to be born again.  That's three.

Jesus said, "you will not come to me that you might have life."  That's four.  

In 1 John, John writes that as many as have Christ have life, and He who has not the son has not life.  That's five.  And this one is worth commenting on a bit, since it so clearly contrary to your idea.  John says, "He who has the Son has life" and "He who has not the Son has not life."  So there are two classes of people, those who believe, and those who don't.  Those who believe have life, and those who do no, don't. Those who do not believe, who are dead, may receive life by receiving Christ,

Roman 8 says that as many as believe in Christ receive the Spirit, who testifies that they are children of God.  That's six.

John says in 1 John, "I have written these things that you may know that you have eternal life"  What things?  That we receive eternal life by believing in Christ.  That's seven.

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life" and that He who believes in Me shall not perish, but have life eternal.  That's eight.

I'll stop here, or maybe not.  There's Romans 4 and Galatians 3, which present Abraham as the father of all who believe, receiving in Christ the promises given to Abraham, one of which is everlasting life.  Perter also refers to the same promise in 2 Peter 3.

Galatians 2:20 is another verse that brings out this truth.

I should be able to think of some more.

The healings of Jesus were to prove the point that Christ had the power to forgive sins and to give life to those who believed in Him.

Peter speaks about new born babes in Christ.  What does that mean?  It means they became alive when they believed in Christ.  What else could it mean?

[pnattmbtc]

How can a dead person believe unless God first makes him alive? This is a question that is asked by Calvinists. Ephesians 2:1-9 states that we are dead in sin, that we are saved by grace, and that we are made alive in Christ. And there are many other passages that state we are dead in sin. Given that a physically dead corpse can’t do anything, how can a spiritually dead person do anything like believe? Could Lazarus raise himself from the dead? Of course not!

The implication here is that a corpse can’t do anything. A corpse can’t consent to being made alive, and so therefore it must be God who makes us believe. So says the Calvinist.

How does the Arminian come to a different conclusion? It’s important to start by noting that we strongly agree with what scripture teaches. Humanity is dead in sin. We are saved by grace. We are made alive in Christ. We can not believe in Christ unless God first gives us the grace to enable us to believe.

The disagreement is over the Biblical definition of what spiritual death entails, as it relates to our relationship with God. Being spiritually dead does not mean that we are corpses that have no spirit and make no decisions, as the Calvinist implies. Instead, being spiritually dead means that our sins have hardened our hearts and have separated us from God. To “be dead” in this sense is to be separated from Christ, and to not desire to be reconciled with Him. To be alive in Christ is to love Him and to be in relationship with Him. Our sins keep us separated from God and we are dependent on Him to initiate the reconciliation that enables us to believe.

The Calvinist mixes a non-religious understanding of physical death with the Bible’s definition of spiritual death. The Calvinist is defining spiritual death as a corpse with no spirit, like Lazarus was before Jesus raised him from the dead. But a spiritually dead person is not the same as a physically dead one. Prior to God’s grace, a non-believer does not seek God, but he is still physically alive, still has a spirit, and still makes decisions. After God begins to draw the non-believer through grace (and He draws everyone), then the non-believer is enabled to believe.

This kind of death (separation) first took place after the fall of Adam and Eve. After they sinned they did not immediately die physically, but they were immediately separated from God. The first thing they tried to do was to hide themselves from God (Genesis 3:8).

Speaking of non-believers, Paul describes spiritual death in Ephesians 4:18-19:

They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

 

Notice that in this passage the non-believer is not a corpse unable to make decisions. Non-believers are “darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.”

Jesus also describes death this way twice in the parable of the Prodigal son (Luke 15). Speaking to the servants the father says “this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.” To his older son the father says “we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.”

In the parable the son was not a corpse. He was able to make decisions, including the decision to go home. Yet, the father still said he was dead! That’s because the son was separated from relationship with his father, and was dependent on the generosity of his father in order to be reconciled. The same is true of us in our spiritual death and separation from our Father.

Jesus describes the concept of separation and its effects in John 15:5-8

I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

 

We are alive in Christ. Separated from him we can do nothing. When we are spiritually dead, it means that we are hardened against God, and are not in relationship with Him. We are dependent on His drawing grace that enables us to believe.

[pnattmbtc]

This was from https://wesleyanarminian.wordpress.com/2013/12/27/how-can-a-dead-person-believe-unless-god-makes-him-alive/.

[Samie]

10 hours ago, Samie said:

You are the one interpreting. Samie is simply believing what the verse says. The verse tells us all died because Christ died for all. I believe what it says that when He died, all of us died. It's you who bombard me with your interpretations, that seem to reflect you want the Bible to say what you think it should have said but did not.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   ¹⁴ For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  ¹⁵and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

5 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Why don't you believe what Paul says a couple of verse later?  "Be ye reconciled to God?"  I'm simply believing what the verse says.

You do? That's exactly my point. Then believe that we died when Christ died, and made alive when He resurrected. And having been made alive, we must live for Him Who died for us and rose again. This is why in v20  it says "be ye reconciled to God", an exhortation addressed to those who were ALREADY made alive.  This is easy to understand, isn't it, brother?

[Samie]

5 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

The problem with your idea is:

Samie: Not my idea. It's Scriptures telling us that we died when Christ died, and made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected.

1.It doesn't make logical sense

Samie: It is logical. Why would it not be? It’s Scriptures. Here again are those Scriptures which you say does not make logical sense:

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   ¹⁴ For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  ¹⁵and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

NKJ Ephesians 2:4-5   4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,  5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ

2.It contradicts what Paul says a couple of verses later

Samie: It actually contradicts what you are saying.

3.It contradicts what Paul says throughout his writings.

Samie: It actually contradicts what you have been posting.

4.It contradicts other Bible writers.

Samie: It contradicts those posters not believing it.

You yourself know and admit this!! You admit that your idea contradicts John, but then suggest that John needed correcting.  

Samie: I have already explained why, long ago.

Why do you think Samie knows better than John?  Why doesn't Samie need correcting?

Samie: It's you saying that, not me.

 

[Samie]

When I asked,

10 hours ago, Samie said:

Pnatt, do you believe in what 2 Cor 5:14-15 say?  I believe you do, don't you?

You can't answer Yes, because you don't. Instead, you replied:

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Do you believe what 2 Cor. 5:19,20 says?  I believe you do, don't you?

And I have said Yes, I believe, and in fact explained to you that it was addressed to those already made alive.

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

I haven't had to throw any and Bible writers, like John, to support my ideas.  

You do, brother. You just don't realize it.  You can't even believe Paul when he tells us we died when Christ died, and made alive together with Him when He resurrected. You may be right you don't throw any Bible writer, you just don't believe what Scriptures say, if it goes against what you teach.

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Once you have to do this, you're admitting you don't believe the Bible, at least not completely, only when it suits you.  If you want to do this, fine, but if you do, what right to you have to make any claims that you are believing what the Bible says?

Then ask that yourself!  You don't believe the Bible when it tells us we died when Christ died, and made alive together with Him when He resurrected.

[Samie]

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

The sequence is:

1.God so loved the world that He gave His only Son.

2.That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Your #3 is a good point.  Our participation is #3.

In your sequence, there seems to be no place where people died, or are dead, made alive, or remained dead. Actually John 3:16's sequencing is easily seen in the sequence I suggested:

10 hours ago, Samie said:

Sequence of events as per Bible:

1. All died when Christ died.  2 Cor 5:14-15; Heb 2:9 (this is where God gave His Son)

2. Made alive together with Christ when He resurrected.  Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13

3. Live for Him Who died for them and rose again. This is overcoming evil with good. 2 Cor 5:15; Rom 12:21 (this is where we are to overcome the evil of unbelief by believing in Him)

Our participation is in #3.  That's where we need faith, for without faith, we cannot please God (Heb 11:6).  #1 & #2 are all God's work FOR us through Christ.

 

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

However, what is missing from what you write (well, one of the things) is that we become children of God by believing.  This is what John 1:12 says.  Paul also teaches this in Romans 8.  What you write in 1 and 2 is also true, just not the way you are thinking of it.  For example, in Ephesians 3, you ignore the context.  I don't know why.  You not only ignore the context, when this is pointed out to you, you ignore that too.

Even before we believe, we are already children of God.  Paul identified himself with the Athenians who have not yet believed, as God's children (Gr ge,noj"genos").  It's not me ignoring the Scriptures you  point out. I think, it's the other way around.

CJB Acts 17:29 So, since we are children of God, we shouldn't suppose that God's essence resembles gold, silver or stone shaped by human technique and imagination.

[Samie]

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Samie, I wrote a long post, with many points, with references, and explanations, and all you do is simply repeat what you said before.  Please have the common courtesy to respond to the points made.

I did respond to every point you have made. What point is it that I did not respond to? Tell me, and I'll gladly address it, if I really hadn't.  I simply guess that the reason why you say I don't respond, is to sway the discussion to another direction so you can stealthily evade my question. Here again:

10 hours ago, Samie said:

And Yes, It is odd that people while dead can believe, because that idea only exists in your mind, brother, not in the Bible.  Can you show even one verse?

Scriptures tell us that ALL died when Christ died and made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected, yet you say people are only made alive when they believe. Since all died when Christ died, and according to you, only those who believe are made alive, it goes without saying that while dead, people can believe. Can you just show one verse in the Bible that says something about this?

[Samie]

Oh, yes, you are trying to show verses that speaks something on while dead people can believe. Let's see those verses.

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

First of all, there is Ephesians 2, right before the verse you are mentioning.  Paul said his readers were dead in trespasses and sins, but they believed in Christ, and were made alive. That's one.

Wait. That verse says nothing that while dead they believed. The Ephesians believed AFTER they had been made alive TOGETHER when Christ resurrected, as v4 says.  How can it be TOGETHER with Christ, when they were made alive long after Christ has resurrected?  Together but not together? 

That verse does not say people can believe while dead.  Otherwise Christ was wrong in saying, while separate from Him, we can do NOTHING.

Here's your another verse:

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

John said that as many as received Christ an believed in His name would become sons of God.  That's two, since to become a son of God, one would have to be made alive.

Wait again.  That's you saying it, not the verse.  You're jumping to conclusion too fast, too soon.  Don't close your eyes to the next verse. The next verse says those who receive and believe were already born of God, so already made alive.

You have not shown any verse yet.  Let's see your next attempt:

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

John quoted Christ teaching that Nicodemus had to be born again.  That's three.

Fast count. You've not yet given any. How are people born again?

^NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

6 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Jesus said, "you will not come to me that you might have life."  That's four.

What four? Not even one yet. You forgot Jesus said no one can come to Him except the Father draws him (John 6:44)? That's because people are not able to, why? They're dead.

Keep trying. Let's see your next verse.

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

In 1 John, John writes that as many as have Christ have life, and He who has not the son has not life.  That's five.  And this one is worth commenting on a bit, since it so clearly contrary to your idea.  John says, "He who has the Son has life" and "He who has not the Son has not life."  So there are two classes of people, those who believe, and those who don't.  Those who believe have life, and those who do no, don't. Those who do not believe, who are dead, may receive life by receiving Christ,

Wait again. Don't hurry. You could trip. What 5, when there's not even one yet. To have Christ, is to be in Christ. And when were we in Christ? When we died with Him!!! And that's on the cross.  And that's why Scriptures say we were made alive TOGETHER with Him, because we already were part of His body when He resurrected.

So again, your proof verse does not say what you want it to say. Next try:

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Roman 8 says that as many as believe in Christ receive the Spirit, who testifies that they are children of God.  That's six.

What 6. Not a single one yet. What portion of the verse says that while dead they believed? They believed because they're alive.

You can do better. Next try:

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

John says in 1 John, "I have written these things that you may know that you have eternal life"  What things?  That we receive eternal life by believing in Christ.  That's seven.

What 7 when there's not even one. We have eternal life when we are in Christ, and we were already in Christ when we died with Him, long before 1 John was written.

Keep trying. Next:

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life" and that He who believes in Me shall not perish, but have life eternal.  That's eight.

8 when there's not even one yet? This verse does not say that people while dead can believe. People can believe now, because they had been made alive TOGETHER with Christ.

You can do better. Try again:

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

I'll stop here, or maybe not.  There's Romans 4 and Galatians 3, which present Abraham as the father of all who believe, receiving in Christ the promises given to Abraham, one of which is everlasting life.  Perter also refers to the same promise in 2 Peter 3.

Which portion in those verses say that while dead Abraham believed? You haven't shown one yet, brother. Next please:

 

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Galatians 2:20 is another verse that brings out this truth.

None there. Where? That verse proves that people are with Christ when He died. And that's what I'm saying. Give a verse that proves your point, not mine. Next try:

 

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

I should be able to think of some more.

The healings of Jesus were to prove the point that Christ had the power to forgive sins and to give life to those who believed in Him.

Unless you give the verse, we can't verify it.  That's why we are alive because our sins were already forgiven on the cross. Read Col 2:13, 14.

You have not shown a single verse that proves your idea that while dead people can believe.

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Peter speaks about new born babes in Christ.  What does that mean?  It means they became alive when they believed in Christ.  What else could it mean?

If they are newly born, then they are already alive. How does that prove that while dead people can believe? Instead, it proves that people can believe because they were already made alive.

Sorry, brother. You tried really hard and did your best and I commend you for that. Sadly, your best was not good enough. Your idea that while dead people can believe is FOREIGN to Scriptures.

[Samie]

I couldn't quote the long post to save space; just the conclusion. But if you feel there's any need to discuss anything more in that post, you may bring it out anytime.

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

We are alive in Christ. Separated from him we can do nothing. When we are spiritually dead, it means that we are hardened against God, and are not in relationship with Him. We are dependent on His drawing grace that enables us to believe.

See that? The first two sentences above is what I had been long emphasizing. Separate from Christ Who is our life, we can do NOTHING. We couldn't even believe because we are dead, spiritually dead.  And believing is a spiritual act.

We are alive in Christ! How? Because we were with Him when He died since He died for ALL, and having been resurrected TOGETHER with Him, we are alive. Because of Him, no one's dead, brother; only non-overcomers.

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

You do? That's exactly my point. Then believe that we died when Christ died, and made alive when He resurrected. And having been made alive, we must live for Him Who died for us and rose again. This is why in v20  it says "be ye reconciled to God", an exhortation addressed to those who were ALREADY made alive.  This is easy to understand, isn't it, brother?

You're contradicting yourself here.  If they were already reconciled, then Paul couldn't be exhorting them to be reconciled.  So in l Paul's mind, they were NOT alive or reconciled.  Paul never referred to unbelievers as being spiritually alive, or having everlasting life, or the Holy Spirit, or any of these things.  Paul always argued for the need to be justified by faith.  What do you think Romans 4 is talking about?

[Samie]

1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said:

You're contradicting yourself here.  If they were already reconciled, then Paul couldn't be exhorting them to be reconciled.  So in l Paul's mind, they were NOT alive or reconciled.  Paul never referred to unbelievers as being spiritually alive, or having everlasting life, or the Holy Spirit, or any of these things.  Paul always argued for the need to be justified by faith.  What do you think Romans 4 is talking about?

It's you contradicting Scriptures that tell us we died with Christ and made alive TOGETHER with Him. We were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, so Scriptures say in Rom 5:10. The exhortation in 2 Cor 5:20 is addressed to those to whom Paul said in vv14,15 to live for Him Who died for them and live again. Who are those? Those who died with Christ - we ALL. 

Faith is needed after we have been made alive, NOT before.