Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 To be made alive, we ONLY need God, not our faith. We don't have anything while dead. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Quote (Ignore first empty quote; software issue; can't get rid of it). Quote Me:John said that as many as received Christ an believed in His name would become sons of God. That's two, since to become a son of God, one would have to be made alive. Samie:Wait again. That's you saying it, not the verse. You're jumping to conclusion too fast, too soon. Don't close your eyes to the next verse. The next verse says those who receive and believe were already born of God, so already made alive. No! It doesn't say that. Verse 12 says that as many as receive Christ, who believe in His name, become sons of God, and verse 13 explains that they became such by being born of God, not be an action of man. This clearly contradicts your idea, because it points out two classes, which is your problem. John has 1.Those who believe in the name of Jesus. These are sons of God, alive spiritually, having been born again. 2.Those who not believe in the name of Jesus. These are not alive. They do not have everlasting life. They have not been born again. The problem with your idea is that there are two different classes. There should only be one if what you were suggesting were true; those who are spiritually alive/children of God/have the Holy Spirit/are saved. That's it. But there are two classes. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Quote To be made alive, we ONLY need God, not our faith. We don't have anything while dead. We need faith to receive everlasting life, which is to be made alive spiritually, which is to become sons of God. When we receive the Holy Spirit, which is when we believe, it testifies that we are children of God. Not everybody has the Holy Spirit/ not everybody believes/ not everybody has everlasting life. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Not my problem, yours. You used v 12, and left off v13. I pointed it out. It says those who received and believed were already born of God. Hence, already made alive before they did the receiving and believing. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 5 minutes ago, Samie said: It's you contradicting Scriptures that tell us we died with Christ and made alive TOGETHER with Him. We were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, so Scriptures say in Rom 5:10. The exhortation in 2 Cor 5:20 is addressed to those to whom Paul said in vv14,15 to live for Him Who died for them and live again. Who are those? Those who died with Christ - we ALL. Faith is needed after we have been made alive, NOT before. You didn't answer my question. What's Romans 4 about? Regarding faith, it is by believing that we receive everlasting life. Let's stop here for a moment. Do you agree with this assertion, that we receive everlasting life by believing in Christ? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: We need faith to receive everlasting life, which is to be made alive spiritually, which is to become sons of God. When we receive the Holy Spirit, which is when we believe, it testifies that we are children of God. Not everybody has the Holy Spirit/ not everybody believes/ not everybody has everlasting life. Only those not blotted out from the BOL will ultimately receive life everlasting. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Regarding 2 Cor. 5, I wrote a detailed explanation discussing this. Please respond to those points. Don't just repeat yourself without reference to what's already been addressed. The discussion doesn't progress that way. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: You didn't answer my question. What's Romans 4 about? Regarding faith, it is by believing that we receive everlasting life. Let's stop here for a moment. Do you agree with this assertion, that we receive everlasting life by believing in Christ? We can believe because we have been made alive. That's the first one you must first accept, And all else will fall rightly into place. Quote
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 And we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ. But you don't believe this. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Quote The exhortation in 2 Cor 5:20 is addressed to those to whom Paul said in vv14,15 to live for Him Who died for them and live again. Who are those? Those who died with Christ - we ALL. This is clearly not the case. Let's look at the text: Quote 15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. 16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. There are two classes of people here, those who have been reconciled, which is we who are ambassadors for Christ, in verse 20. The ambassadors for Christ have a message for those who are not reconciled, who are not ambassadors for Christ, to be reconciled. You cannot give a message to someone who is reconciled the message "be reconciled". Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Quote Only those not blotted out from the BOL will ultimately receive life everlasting. Those who believe have everlasting life now. John makes this point is various places. I've already cited several verses. Do you disagree with this? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: This is clearly not the case. Let's look at the text: There are two classes of people here, those who have been reconciled, which is we who are ambassadors for Christ, in verse 20. The ambassadors for Christ have a message for those who are not reconciled, who are not ambassadors for Christ, to be reconciled. You cannot give a message to someone who is reconciled the message "be reconciled". Wrong. Its the authors that are the "we" and the "us" in v20. Look again. Quote
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: Those who believe have everlasting life now. John makes this point is various places. I've already cited several verses. Do you disagree with this? As I said, everything will fall nicely into place, once you believe that we were all made alive TOGETHER with Christ. Quote
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 We have everlasting life now, yes, because we have been made alive, and our names are in the BOL. But only overcomers will not be blotted out from it. All blotted out from it will forfeit life eternal. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Quote Not my problem, yours. You used v 12, and left off v13. I pointed it out. It says those who received and believed were already born of God. Hence, already made alive before they did the receiving and believing. It doesn't say this. It's all one sentence! John says *nothing* about people who were "already made alive before". He speaks of people who were born of God, and how that happened, which is be believing in Christ. It says, "To as many as received Him gave He power to become sons of God, even to those who believed in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (this is from memory; might not be exact). So those who believe in His name, who receive Christ, have the power to become sons of God. If they were already sons of God, John couldn't have said that the become sons of God. They are not already sons of God, but become sons of God when they believe, and John emphasizes that they were born again, that the second birth is of God, not of man; that's what verse 13 is explaining. John is making clear he is not talking about our physical birth, but about being born again. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 What prevents you, brother, from believing that we have been made alive TOGETHER with Christ, despite Scriptures telling us so? Quote
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: It doesn't say this. It's all one sentence! John says *nothing* about people who were "already made alive before". He speaks of people who were born of God, and how that happened, which is be believing in Christ. It says, "To as many as received Him gave He power to become sons of God, even to those who believed in His name, who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God" (this is from memory; might not be exact). So those who believe in His name, who receive Christ, have the power to become sons of God. If they were already sons of God, John couldn't have said that the become sons of God. They are not already sons of God, but become sons of God when they believe, and John emphasizes that they were born again, that the second birth is of God, not of man; that's what verse 13 is explaining. John is making clear he is not talking about our physical birth, but about being born again. They were already born of God before they received and believed. Read those verses again. The issue is your absurd idea of people believing while dead. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Quote Jesus said, "you will not come to me that you might have life." That's four. What four? Not even one yet. You forgot Jesus said no one can come to Him except the Father draws him (John 6:44)? That's because people are not able to, why? They're dead. It won't let me edit the box. Well, you know what I said and what you said. You claim everyone is alive. How could the be dead? That they are dead is my point. You're stating that which I was intending to prove. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Just now, pnattmbtc said: It won't let me edit the box. Well, you know what I said and what you said. You claim everyone is alive. How could the be dead? That they are dead is my point. You're stating that which I was intending to prove. No, it's the other way around. People cannot come to Christ unless the Father draws them. And He did just that for them on the cross. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 Quote Me:Roman 8 says that as many as believe in Christ receive the Spirit, who testifies that they are children of God. That's six. Samie:What 6. Not a single one yet. What portion of the verse says that while dead they believed? They believed because they're alive. I'm not understanding what you're missing here. Paul says the following: 1.Not everyone has the Holy Spirit. 2.To those who do, the Spirit testifies they are sons of God. 3.To become sons of God, they had to be made alive. 4.They received the Spirit when they were justified by faith. For Paul, when one is justified by faith, one becomes a child of God, and receives the Holy Spirit, who testifies to that fact. Since they became sons of God by being justified by faith, they had to be justified by faith *before* they became sons of God. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 We were with Christ when He died; we were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected. So Scriptures say. What prevents you from believing this, brother? Quote
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 4 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: I'm not understanding what you're missing here. Paul says the following: 1.Not everyone has the Holy Spirit. 2.To those who do, the Spirit testifies they are sons of God. 3.To become sons of God, they had to be made alive. 4.They received the Spirit when they were justified by faith. For Paul, when one is justified by faith, one becomes a child of God, and receives the Holy Spirit, who testifies to that fact. Since they became sons of God by being justified by faith, they had to be justified by faith *before* they became sons of God. What I am not understanding you is you cannot believe what Scriptures say that we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ. And this is why we can now believe. And everything else falls rightly into place. Quote
Samie Posted November 13, 2015 Author Posted November 13, 2015 Ohh, time flies fast. It's about midnight here, and I'll be up early to drive around 50 miles to AIIAS for Sabbath worship services. See you again, after Sabbath services tomorrow, brother. Good night... Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 13, 2015 Posted November 13, 2015 23 minutes ago, Samie said: What I am not understanding you is you cannot believe what Scriptures say that we were made alive TOGETHER with Christ. And this is why we can now believe. And everything else falls rightly into place. You didn't respond to what I wrote. I'll repeat it here for your convenience. I don't know what you're thinking if you don't respond. Your understanding of 2 Cor. 5 isn't the only possible interpretation, and if it leads you to contradict other things that the same author wrote (or others, but especially the same), it cannot be correct. So you need to address what the author has written elsewhere. Paul wrote *tons* about justification by faith. I'm including an outline of a couple of Paul's ideas below. If the order is like this: justified by faith ->receive the Spirit who testifies you are a child of God (alive spiritually; maybe you disagree here(?); I don't know what you disagree with when you don't respond) then the order must have been that faith was exercised before one became a child of God. Do you disagree with this? To be clear I'm asking, do you disagree that by faith one becomes a child of God? I'm not understanding what you're missing here. Paul says the following: 1.Not everyone has the Holy Spirit. 2.To those who do, the Spirit testifies they are sons of God. 3.To become sons of God, they had to be made alive. 4.They received the Spirit when they were justified by faith. For Paul, when one is justified by faith, one becomes a child of God, and receives the Holy Spirit, who testifies to that fact. Since they became sons of God by being justified by faith, they had to be justified by faith *before* they became sons of God. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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