Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[Wingnut]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Can we all agree to the above statement? If not, devise a similar, but concise, statement which you think is better and agreeable to us.

I agree. True

Samie asked:

Consider the following as answerable by True or False:

"Before the creation of the world, God already knew that man will fall into sin."

My answer is True. What's your answer, please?

 

 Like this

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Consider the following as answerable by True or False:

"Before the creation of the world, God already knew that man will fall into sin."

My answer is True. What's your answer, please?

 

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Consider the following as answerable by True or False:

"Before the creation of the world, God already knew that man will fall into sin."

My answer is True. What's your answer, please?

God experiments.  The future is not fixed.  God made man so He knew a lot about man.  God knew that some man would sin, even if Adam or Eve did not.

With those conditionals, yes I agree. True.

[Samie]

31 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

God experiments.  The future is not fixed.  God made man so He knew a lot about man.  God knew that some man would sin, even if Adam or Eve did not.

With those conditionals, yes I agree. True.

Based on how you answer, I am not yet sure of your position.  So I will exactly know where you're coming from, I have to modify the statement, still answerable by True or False.

"Before the creation of the world, God already knew that Adam will fall into sin."

My answer is True. What's yours?

[Wingnut]

31 minutes ago, Samie said:

Based on how you answer, I am not yet sure of your position.  So I will exactly know where you're coming from, I have to modify the statement, still answerable by True or False.

"Before the creation of the world, God already knew that Adam will fall into sin."

My answer is True. What's yours?

With those conditionals, yes I agree. True.

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

With those conditionals, yes I agree. True.

I will interpret your answer as you saying that before the creation of the world, God knew Adam will fall into sin. Is this accurate?

[Wingnut]

19 minutes ago, Samie said:

I will interpret your answer as you saying that before the creation of the world, God knew Adam will fall into sin. Is this accurate?

Before 6000 years ago, God had experimented with hominids such as Homo erectus and Neanderthals.  Now He was ready to make modern man or Homo sapiens.  So He made Adam and Eve 6000 years ago after renewing the earth in 7 days.

From God's past experience with proto-men, God was ALMOST certain that humans would sin.  How could they not since He had given them free will.  And with free will it is almost inevitable that we will make one bad decision in our lifetime.  To God this was not a problem.  God knew with 99.999999% certainty that every person would sin.  That is why, before He created man, Christ was already appointed as a Lamb to the slaughter to take away all the future sins of mankind.

 

[Samie]

Wow!!!  I understand your quite long answer as saying, "Yes, before the creation of the world, God knew Adam will fall into sin."  Do I get you right?

[Samie]

It's either God knew or He didn't know. The in-between is He was not sure, but still that's tantamount to He did not know. So what's your position? Did God know or He did not? Please be specific so we could proceed further, and not waste time in simply guessing what your actual position is. You may also say you are not sure whether God knew or not.  That's fine with me.

[Samie]

Please just tell me plainly what your position is in the issue of whether before the world was created, God already knew Adam will fall into sin.

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Wow!!!  I understand your quite long answer as saying, "Yes, before the creation of the world, God knew Adam will fall into sin."  Do I get you right?

I know your position on the future, that there is only one future, cast in stone.  It is not this way that God knows that folks will sin.

The only things God knows for sure about the future are the things HE DETERMINES will happen.

God never determined that mankind would sin, neither did He work to bring this about.  Quite to the contrary.

So there can be no CERTAINTY that man would sin, only a SUPER-HIGH PROBABILITY.

Because our views on predestination are so different in this regard, I think you should give up whatever line of reasoning you have in this regard.  

 

[Samie]

So are you saying that before the creation of the world, God did not know for sure Adam will fall into sin?

[Wingnut]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

It's either God knew or He didn't know. The in-between is He was not sure, but still that's tantamount to He did not know. So what's your position? Did God know or He did not? Please be specific so we could proceed further, and not waste time in simply guessing what your actual position is. You may also say you are not sure whether God knew or not.  That's fine with me.

My position is what any good scientist would know when he sets out to experiment - I am ALMOST certain this will happen, but surprise me.

A "predestination" discussion is too big to pursue.

[Samie]

You are making it difficult for me, brother, to understand what you really believe in.

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

My position is what any good scientist would know when he sets out to experiment - I am ALMOST certain this will happen, but surprise me.

A "predestination" discussion is too big to pursue.

I am not into pursuing "predestination" if that's what you are afraid of.  What I am after is to know PRECISELY where you stand. As it is, you are coming as one who is not sure whether to go right or left.

Please, again: Before the creation of the world, did God know Adam will fall into sin?  Can you answer this with a simple yes or no, brother?

[Samie]

Sorry, but while you're at it, my wife is calling for assistance with the laundry. Be back later.

[Wingnut]

8 minutes ago, Samie said:

You are making it difficult for me, brother, to understand what you really believe in.

I am not into pursuing "predestination" if that's what you are afraid of.  What I am after is to know PRECISELY where you stand. As it is, you are coming as one who is not sure whether to go right or left.

Please, again: Before the creation of the world, did God know Adam will fall into sin?  Can you answer this with a simple yes or no, brother?

You can try to drag me into a discussion by calling me "afraid" of where you are going.

No, I know where you are going - to a discussion about God knowing some will be saved and some not, from the start.

Therefore God knows whether Christ was slain from the foundation of the world or not.

I am not "afraid" of any person's ideas - I just do not care to go into a complex discussion involving predestination, when one has not completed the relatively much simpler discussion of whether folks are under the sway of Satan from the start or not.

I can only say with 99.999999% certainty that if you pursue this line of reasoning, I will walk away from this aspect of the discussion and leave you to discuss it with Pnatt or Rachel.

And the reason I say this is because you asked this question about 4 times already, and I answered it 4 times already.  My answer did not tick the box you wanted, so you will keep asking a question which is "asked and answered".  Move on, or I will  

 

[Samie]

Thank you, brother. Have a good day. . .

[Samie]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

Consider the following as answerable by True or False:

"Before the creation of the world, God already knew that man will fall into sin."

My answer is True. What's your answer, please?

The above post is reposted for Pnatt.

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Thank you, brother. Have a good day. . .

You too Samie.

But before I go, I leave you with this parable.

You are God.  You call me to play your game.

I have free will.  I don't want to play your game.

I want to play my game or maybe another, or perhaps even another of your suggesting.

But you, being God, know when you are flogging a dead horse (me in this parable).

So you, being God, and also having free will, move on to call someone else to see if they are more responsive to your calling, in this case Pnatt.

But Pnatt is currently asleep/dead to your calling.

And unlike God, you do not have the power to wake him.

So when he wakes naturally, we look forward to seeing whether he "answers the call".  

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/8/2015, 3:13:25, Samie said:

Did Christ die only for the believers, 8thdaypriest?

It's an interesting question.  Would God have given His own Son to death, IF no created being would be reconciled to Him thereby?  I say no. 

[8thdaypriest]

Did God know that man would sin?  Did He know this before the world was created?  Did He know that some angels would rebel against Him? 

I say - YES.  God beget a Son.  He beget a Son BEFORE anything was created.  Why?   Answer:  Because He knew. 

And God knew, that the only way to reconcile them to His will, was to 1. allow them to experience the consequences of separation from His blessing  and 2.  to show them just how much He loved them

God the Father could not continue to "uphold all things" while at the same time, giving up divine power to become a human, and then to DIE.  In order to save (part of) His creation, there HAD TO BE two of Him. 

Paul once said "the whole creation travails in pain to be delivered" - like a women giving birth.  I wondered whether this whole process is LIKE conception and finally giving birth.  God creates begins with free will.  That's the conception.  Then those beings try out their free will.  Then those beings use their free will against God's expressed will.  Then some of those beings finally learn that God's way is the only way to life and peace and joy.  Then those beings are given eternal life - they are finally "born". 

 

[pnattmbtc]

15 hours ago, Samie said:

I thank you for your answer. But it did not yet make clear to me what your actual answer is (say, whether a Yes or a No) to my question.

So, are you saying the plan was devised but as to its being implemented is UNSURE, since God is not sure whether man would sin or not? Please be direct with your answer so I won't be left guessing.

You're not asking a good question, because it's assuming a false question.  It's like me asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife?"  (Please answer yes or no).  You can't answer this question without implying you beat your wife, whether you answer yes or no, because there's an implicit assumption that you beat your wife within the question itself.  Similarly your question is assuming there is such a thins as "the future", but I have asserted this is a false, so I reject the premise upon which your question is based.

[pnattmbtc]

8 hours ago, Wingnut said:

You too Samie.

But before I go, I leave you with this parable.

You are God.  You call me to play your game.

I have free will.  I don't want to play your game.

I want to play my game or maybe another, or perhaps even another of your suggesting.

But you, being God, know when you are flogging a dead horse (me in this parable).

So you, being God, and also having free will, move on to call someone else to see if they are more responsive to your calling, in this case Pnatt.

But Pnatt is currently asleep/dead to your calling.

And unlike God, you do not have the power to wake him.

So when he wakes naturally, we look forward to seeing whether he "answers the call".  

Nice.

[pnattmbtc]

21 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

It's an interesting question.  Would God have given His own Son to death, IF no created being would be reconciled to Him thereby?  I say no. 

To me this is a very easy question.  I would say "of course not."

[pnattmbtc]

8 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Did God know that man would sin?  Did He know this before the world was created?  Did He know that some angels would rebel against Him? 

I say - YES.  God beget a Son.  He beget a Son BEFORE anything was created.  Why?   Answer:  Because He knew. 

And God knew, that the only way to reconcile them to His will, was to 1. allow them to experience the consequences of separation from His blessing  and 2.  to show them just how much He loved them

God the Father could not continue to "uphold all things" while at the same time, giving up divine power to become a human, and then to DIE.  In order to save (part of) His creation, there HAD TO BE two of Him. 

Paul once said "the whole creation travails in pain to be delivered" - like a women giving birth.  I wondered whether this whole process is LIKE conception and finally giving birth.  God creates begins with free will.  That's the conception.  Then those beings try out their free will.  Then those beings use their free will against God's expressed will.  Then some of those beings finally learn that God's way is the only way to life and peace and joy.  Then those beings are given eternal life - they are finally "born". 

 

I don't think the future is fixed.  I posted a proof on this.  Maybe I'll repeat it.

Let's say the future is such that God can peer into it and see what will happen, so He commissions an angel
to write down everything that will happen, who does so, the book of all facts.  You look into the book, and sure
enough it says that you are looking into the book at the time you are looking into it.  You decide to do the following:

You look forward in the book to see what you will be doing an hour hence, and if it says you will be looking in the book, you will not look in the book, but if it says you will not be looking in the book, you will look in the book.

This is a proof by contradcion.  Since we've ended in a contradiction either way, the premise must be false; the futue is not fixed.

[8thdaypriest]

9 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

I don't think the future is fixed.  I posted a proof on this.  Maybe I'll repeat it.

Let's say the future is such that God can peer into it and see what will happen, so He commissions an angel
to write down everything that will happen, who does so, the book of all facts.  You look into the book, and sure
enough it says that you are looking into the book at the time you are looking into it.  You decide to do the following:

You look forward in the book to see what you will be doing an hour hence, and if it says you will be looking in the book, you will not look in the book, but if it says you will not be looking in the book, you will look in the book.

This is a proof by contradcion.  Since we've ended in a contradiction either way, the premise must be false; the futue is not fixed.

You're asking whether "knowing" and "controlling" are the same.  I say NO.  Because God "knew" that Adam (or anyone else) would sin, does NOT mean God made Adam sin.  That would negate free will.  God does not prevent our sinning.  He leaves us with choice.