Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

If you set the bar super low that all religions are OK, then sure you would believe they are spiritually alive.  People are born spiritually alive to Satan.

But the thing you have to prove is that they are born spiritually alive to the God of the Bible, and the historical Jesus.

I never for once said all religions are OK, did I?  What I consistently said was to this effect, that all of us - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - were born OK with God. He it was Who formed us in and brought us out from our mother's womb and gave us life. What reason would have prompted our God of agape love to form one in and bring him out from the womb spiritually alive to Satan and not to Himself?

[Wingnut]

25 minutes ago, Samie said:

I never for once said all religions are OK, did I?  What I consistently said was to this effect, that all of us - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - were born OK with God. He it was Who formed us in and brought us out from our mother's womb and gave us life. What reason would have prompted our God of agape love to form one in and bring him out from the womb spiritually alive to Satan and not to Himself?

All His descendants have different religions, yet you say they were all "born OK with God".  And with all their different religions they were born into you have all along insisted they were still in the life-raft.

At least concede then that all those with other religions are "non-overcomers".

And take it up with God that all are born alive to Satan, but not all are born alive to God.  I guess its because all roads lead to hell, except one.  And you are not going to stumble upon that road without a calling.  The default setting is eternal death - the gift of God is eternal life.

 

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

All His descendants have different religions, yet you say they were all "born OK with God".  And with all their different religions they were born into you have all along insisted they were still in the life-raft.

At least concede then that all those with other religions are "non-overcomers".

And take it up with God that all are born alive to Satan, but not all are born alive to God.  I guess its because all roads lead to hell, except one.  And you are not going to stumble upon that road without a calling.

People are born independent from any religion. It was God Who caused their birth. If you were to ask me what would have prompted God to form all people in and bring them out of the womb spiritually alive to Himself, this I would say: He had chosen us all BEFORE the foundation of the world!

Ephesians 1:3-5   ³ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: ⁴ According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:  ⁵Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

Now your turn: What would have prompted God to form all people in and bring them out of the womb spiritually alive to Satan?

[Samie]

14 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

At least concede then that all those with other religions are "non-overcomers".

Why should I, when the Bible tells me otherwise?  Was Abel born into Christianity? Yet, he is an overcomer. And many others more in the OT who were overcomers but were not born into Christianity.

[Samie]

Yes, all were born spiritually alive and written in the BOL, but only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from it!!!

[Wingnut]

32 minutes ago, Samie said:

Now your turn: What would have prompted God to form all people in and bring them out of the womb spiritually alive to Satan?

God already tried once your life-raft story.  He created the angels all good with Him, born in the life-raft.  All they had to do was overcome.  But one third of them rebelled, and we have had trouble with this one third ever since.

So God learned from this??

When he decided to make man, He did the opposite.  Every person would be born in the pig-slop slum.  He would reach out to each one of them, clean them up, offer them life.  The hope was that this would build an eternal bond with Him, which the angels, born as spoilt children, seemed to lack.

 

Ezekiel 16King James Version (KJV)

16 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the lothing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

God already tried once your life-raft story.  He created the angels all good with Him, born in the life-raft.  All they had to do was overcome.  But one third of them rebelled, and we have had trouble with this one third ever since.

That's why their destiny is the lake of fire, same with the human non-overcomers!!!

^KJV Matthew 25:41   Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

^KJV Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

So God learned from this??

No. He already knew about this from the very beginning:

^NIV Isaiah 46:9-10   ⁹ Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.  ¹⁰ I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. . .

That's why the following is wrong:

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

When he decided to make man, He did the opposite. Every person would be born in the pig-slop slum.

Instead, God created man in His own image!!! 

^NKJ Genesis 1:27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

^NIV Ecclesiastes 7:29 This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

Does God's image look to you like the pig-slop slum?

[Samie]

As to your proof verses, Ezek 16:1-6, that God made man spiritually alive to Satan, those verses do not say what you want them to say. Here again are those verses which say NOTHING about man's being made spiritually alive to Satan:

^NKJ Ezekiel 16:1 Again the word of the LORD came to me, saying,  ² "Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,  ³ "and say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD to Jerusalem: "Your birth and your nativity are from the land of Canaan; your father was an Amorite and your mother a Hittite.  ⁴ "As for your nativity, on the day you were born your navel cord was not cut, nor were you washed in water to cleanse you; you were not rubbed with salt nor wrapped in swaddling cloths.  ⁵ "No eye pitied you, to do any of these things for you, to have compassion on you; but you were thrown out into the open field, when you yourself were loathed on the day you were born.  ⁶ " And when I passed by you and saw you struggling in your own blood, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!' Yes, I said to you in your blood, 'Live!'

When God said to the newborn "Live!", did He make the newborn spiritually alive to Satan?  No! Here are the next verses that say the OPPOSITE of what you are claiming:

^NKJ Ezekiel 16:7-14   ⁷ "I made you thrive like a plant in the field; and you grew, matured, and became very beautiful. Your breasts were formed, your hair grew, but you were naked and bare.  ⁸ "When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine," says the Lord GOD. 

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, Samie said:

So what did the dead do so God can make him alive?

The did not "resist" God's "drawing".  That's what they DID. 

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, Wingnut said:

a

Ezekiel 16King James Version (KJV)

16 Again the word of the Lord came unto me, saying,

2 Son of man, cause Jerusalem to know her abominations,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord God unto Jerusalem; Thy birth and thy nativity is of the land of Canaan; thy father was an Amorite, and thy mother an Hittite.

4 And as for thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple thee; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.

5 None eye pitied thee, to do any of these unto thee, to have compassion upon thee; but thou wast cast out in the open field, to the loathing of thy person, in the day that thou wast born.

6 And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

 

What a great passage!  I just highlighted some words.  Israel was DEAD.  Born DEAD.  Born spiritually DEAD.  Physically alive, but "DEAD" because not attached to Christ.  Then God came and said to her, "Live".   What a great example of EVERY HUMAN BEING. 

[8thdaypriest]

How many times do we have to point out that ALL HUMANITY, did not become "the body of Christ" on the cross.  ONLY believers become part of "the body of Christ" - the "bride".  Only "the church".  We quote the passages again, and again, and again - but Samie just keeps repeating that "all humanity" became the "body of Christ" on the cross.  He takes a verse out of context, and teaches a whole doctrine, and all human beings are "born saved".

I think this discussion has helped the rest of us to develop our understanding of just HOW we are "saved", and WHEN, but I'm not sure that repeating and repeating the same arguments, thru thread after thread, after thread, is making any further progress.    

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The did not "resist" God's "drawing".  That's what they DID. 

So you are saying to do NOTHING is doing SOMETHING. Wonderful logic.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What a great passage!  I just highlighted some words.  Israel was DEAD.  Born DEAD.  Born spiritually DEAD.  Physically alive, but "DEAD" because not attached to Christ.  Then God came and said to her, "Live".   What a great example of EVERY HUMAN BEING. 

I have addressed Ezek 16:1-6 just some posts back, here.  You may object to that post, if you have any objections.

Are you now turning your back to what you have earlier written in this post?  Changing positions so soon? Are you now saying what you wrote in that post are untrue?

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

How many times do we have to point out that ALL HUMANITY, did not become "the body of Christ" on the cross.  ONLY believers become part of "the body of Christ" - the "bride".  Only "the church".

You are correct that it was "the church" that became part of "the body of Christ" on the cross. But Scriptures tell us "the church" is that which God redeemed with His own blood - the blood of Christ. And Christ redeemed us all because He died for ALL:

^NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   ¹⁴ For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  ¹⁵ and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

^NKJ Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

It simply follows that all of us for whom Christ died, comprise "the church" that became part of "the body of Christ" on the cross.

[LifeHiscost]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

How many times do we have to point out that ALL HUMANITY, did not become "the body of Christ" on the cross.  ONLY believers become part of "the body of Christ" - the "bride".  Only "the church".  We quote the passages again, and again, and again - but Samie just keeps repeating that "all humanity" became the "body of Christ" on the cross.  He takes a verse out of context, and teaches a whole doctrine, and all human beings are "born saved".

I think this discussion has helped the rest of us to develop our understanding of just HOW we are "saved", and WHEN, but I'm not sure that repeating and repeating the same arguments, thru thread after thread, after thread, is making any further progress.    

I like the way Ron Halvorson put it, "When I look at myself, I don't know how I could be saved,

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.....Isaiah 64

 

but when I look at Christ, I don't know how I could be lost.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.....;Galatians 2

 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves!

[Samie]

Did Christ die only for the believers, 8thdaypriest?

[LifeHiscost]

19 minutes ago, Samie said:

Did Christ die only for the believers, 8thdaypriest?

This ought to answer that.

¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life....John 3:16

The question perhaps could be, are you a whosoever who believes?

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

We quote the passages again, and again, and again - but Samie just keeps repeating that "all humanity" became the "body of Christ" on the cross.  He takes a verse out of context, and teaches a whole doctrine, and all human beings are "born saved".

Out of context?  Maybe, out of the context you want the verse to have. But speaking of the Biblical context, to be "born saved" is I think the Biblical context.

God saved us by His grace given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

 

 ^NKJ 2 Timothy 1:9-10   ⁹ who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,  ¹⁰ but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

 

God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world.

 

^NKJ Ephesians 1:3-5   ³ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,  ⁴ just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,  ⁵ having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will

Scriptures tell us that God formed us in and brought us out from the womb and gave us life and even determined the exact places where we are to live.  What reason would have prompted our God of agape love Who wants all men to be saved, for us to be “born unsaved” instead of “born saved”?

[Samie]

1 minute ago, LifeHiscost said:

This ought to answer that.

¹⁶ For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life....John 3:16

The question perhaps could be, are you a whosoever who believes?

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

And believers are overcomers: they have overcome the evil of unbelief. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the BOL.

[Samie]

God saved us. Past tense. This applies to all.

God is saving us. Present tense. This applies to all.

God will save us. Future tense. This applies to the overcomers, those whose names were not blotted out from the BOL.

[Samie]

Just now, Samie said:

God saved us. Past tense. This applies to all.

God is saving us. Present tense. This applies to all.

God will save us. Future tense. This applies to the overcomers, those whose names were not blotted out from the BOL.

In the past and present tenses, all - Adam and Eve and all their descendants - benefited. But in the future tense, only the overcomers will benefit.

It appears that objectors to my position simply wants to talk about the future tense.

[LifeHiscost]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

And believers are overcomers: they have overcome the evil of unbelief. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the BOL.

I could only answer that with this, lest I glorify myself instead of the Lord of glory.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me....lGalatians 2

 

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.      Romans 8

 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Samie]

Adam came out of God's hand "saved". When he sinned, he should have died but did not because a Lamb died that day he sinned.

Just now, LifeHiscost said:

I could only answer that with this, lest I glorify myself instead of the Lord of glory.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me....lGalatians 2

 

3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.      Romans 8

 

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

A body part is strong because the Man in Whose body the part is attached is strong. Same with us. Attached to Him Who is our Life and Strength for overcoming, we have His Power to overcome evil with good. The credit is His, not ours.

[LifeHiscost]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

The credit is His, not ours.

Satisfies me.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

Quote

"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." None will ever come to Christ, save those who respond to the drawing of the Father's love. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ. DA 387

God draws all.  Only those who refuse to come to Christ will not be made alive.