Wingnut Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. (DA 324) This I definitely agree with. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 3 minutes ago, Wingnut said: We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. (DA 324) This I definitely agree with. Off to lunch. Back in a bit; will see if you have waxed eloquent in the meantime. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Wingnut Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 23 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: How I understand this is that God is drawing all to Himself, and unless one refuses to be drawn, he will be drawn, so their is an act of the will involved in order to "unbelieve". However, this act need not be conscious or deliberate. It seems to me, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ. (DA 387) This I totally disagree with, as stated in the past. This makes it sound like anyone who does not get saved its his fault. This does not address those who never have heard of Him? How are they drawn? This issue is not adequately dealt with in any churches except WCG where they say in the 8M most will receive their call. And the parable of the sower, ask yourself who's fault it is where the seed lands. Can we blame the soil (or heart) where the seed is sown? That is why I so prefer the notion of God sowing, seeing the response, intervening further or not. I believe God calls many. Some respond. God nurtures them further. These get chosen. They must stay faithful till death. The rest, God preserves their consciences intact. He waits to draw them at a more opportune time, later in this life, or the 8M But there is no universal calling. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 I don't think it's necessarily the case that if someone isn't saved it is their fault, as there are some who have limitations which might not allow it, such as not being of the age of accountability, or mental issues, for example. Clearly if anyone is to be saved, it is God's responsibility to make it possible for that to happen, and then the person may respond or not. How was Abraham saved? God preached the Gospel to him. I don't see why God couldn't or wouldn't do that for anyone else. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 Positions: (correct me if not accurate) 1. Wingnut's: all born in Satan's camp; default setting: unsaved; must believe to be saved 2. Pnatt's: not all born in Satan's camp; some in God's camp; default setting: unsaved; must believe to be saved 3. Samie's: all born in God's camp; default setting: saved; had been saved, are being saved, but only overcomers will ultimately be saved. Believers are overcomers of the evil of unbelief. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Quote Pnatt's: not all born in Satan's camp; some in God's camp; default setting: unsaved; must believe to be saved. I've not said this anywhere. Could you quote something I've said please? I do believe if one is unsaved, one needs to believe to be saved; I'll agree with that, and I've said something similar, but as to the rest of this, I don't know where you're getting this from. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 2 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: I've not said this anywhere. Could you quote something I've said please? I do believe if one is unsaved, one needs to believe to be saved; I'll agree with that, and I've said something similar, but as to the rest of this, I don't know where you're getting this from. That's why I wrote "correct me if not accurate". So what's your accurate position? Could you please cite it in the suggested format for comparison? Thanks. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Ok, good, thx. I think saying the default setting is to be saved is OK. What that means to me is that a person will be saved unless he does something to change that, which would be to resist or refuse. As the DA comment I've quoted puts it, the love of God shining from the cross; unless we resist, we will be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for our sins. So the default setting applies unless we resist. I think I'd say something like that. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 As regards to how we are born, I agree with the Spirit of Prophesy statements. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 Is there any possibility for you to make a concise version of your position, preferably in the initial format suggested? 1. whether born in God's or Satan's camp. 2. Default setting 3. how is one saved Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 3 minutes ago, Samie said: Is there any possibility for you to make a concise version of your position, preferably in the initial format suggested? 1. whether born in God's or Satan's camp. 2. Default setting 3. how is one saved 1.Depends 2.Saved 3.By believing in Christ Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: 1.Depends 2.Saved 3.By believing in Christ Thank you. That's clear. Time for comparison. Quote
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 Rewriting the positions (correct me again, if not, accurate) : 1. Wingnut's: all born in Satan's camp; default setting: unsaved; how to be saved: must believe to be saved 2. Pnatt's: depends (on what?); default setting: saved; how to be saved: By believing in Christ 3. Samie's: all born in God's camp; default setting: saved; how to be saved: had been saved, are being saved, but only overcomers will ultimately be saved. Believers are overcomers of the evil of unbelief. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 Regarding depends on what, what Ellen White wrote is that is basically depends on the faith of the parents, and she used the blood on the doorposts for the firstborn in Egypt as an example. The reason I'm saying "basically" is that she was careful not to make this an absolute, saying, for example, it was possible for little ones to be in heaven without their parents being there, or vice versa. She emphasized very strongly the importance of how parents raised their little ones in terms of their salvation, so the idea was certainly was NOT the faith of the parents was all that was necessary, and they could just let their children go and not worry about teaching them about Christ, etc. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 Rewriting the positions again (correct me again, if not accurate): 1. Wingnut's: all born in Satan's camp; default setting: unsaved; how to be saved: must believe to be saved 2. Pnatt's: depends on faith of the parents; default setting: saved; how to be saved: By believing in Christ 3. Samie's: all born in God's camp; default setting: saved; how to be saved: had been saved, are being saved, but only overcomers will ultimately be saved. Believers are overcomers of the evil of unbelief. Quote
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 Statement: Regarding the salvation of man, God has a plan devised before the foundation of the world. 1. Wingnut: Agree? 2. Pnatt: Agree? 3. Samie: Agree. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 8 minutes ago, Samie said: Rewriting the positions again (correct me again, if not accurate): 1. Wingnut's: all born in Satan's camp; default setting: unsaved; how to be saved: must believe to be saved 2. Pnatt's: depends on faith of the parents; default setting: saved; how to be saved: By believing in Christ 3. Samie's: all born in God's camp; default setting: saved; how to be saved: had been saved, are being saved, but only overcomers will ultimately be saved. Believers are overcomers of the evil of unbelief. Mine: Ok, except change "depends on faith of the parents" to "depends". Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 Rewriting the positions again (correct me again, if not accurate): 1. Wingnut's: all born in Satan's camp; default setting: unsaved; how to be saved: must believe to be saved 2. Pnatt's: depends; default setting: saved; how to be saved: By believing in Christ 3. Samie's: all born in God's camp; default setting: saved; how to be saved: had been saved, are being saved, but only overcomers will ultimately be saved. Believers are overcomers of the evil of unbelief. Quote
Samie Posted November 9, 2015 Author Posted November 9, 2015 31 minutes ago, Samie said: Statement: Regarding the salvation of man, God has a plan devised before the foundation of the world. 1. Wingnut: Agree? 2. Pnatt: Agree? 3. Samie: Agree. Can we all agree to the above statement? If not, devise a similar, but concise, statement which you think is better and agreeable to us. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 6 minutes ago, Samie said: Can we all agree to the above statement? If not, devise a similar, but concise, statement which you think is better and agreeable to us. I would say God had thought of the plan, but it was a contingency plan, it wasn't something set in stone. That is, it could have and should have happaned that it was not necessary for the plan to be implemented (but, alas, that was the case, and sin did happen). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted November 9, 2015 Posted November 9, 2015 By the way, the Spirit of Prophecy makes a nice analogy, saying that the body is able to heal itself before the injury occurs. The Plan of Salvation (healing) was ready to be implemented before the injury (sin) occurred. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 48 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: I would say God had thought of the plan, but it was a contingency plan, it wasn't something set in stone. That is, it could have and should have happaned that it was not necessary for the plan to be implemented (but, alas, that was the case, and sin did happen). 47 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: By the way, the Spirit of Prophecy makes a nice analogy, saying that the body is able to heal itself before the injury occurs. The Plan of Salvation (healing) was ready to be implemented before the injury (sin) occurred. Let's for a while deviate from our discussion flow. Are you saying the plan was devised but as to its being implemented is UNSURE, since God is not sure whether man would sin or not? I simply want to be sure of your position. Thanks. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted November 10, 2015 Posted November 10, 2015 41 minutes ago, Samie said: Let's for a while deviate from our discussion flow. Are you saying the plan was devised but as to its being implemented is UNSURE, since God is not sure whether man would sin or not? I simply want to be sure of your position. Thanks. My position is that there is no one single thing which is "the future", but that the future consists of all possible things which can happen. When God foresees the future, what He foresees is every possible thing which can happen, which is what the future is. God does not see the thing which will happen, because there is no such thing; such a future does not exist. So when God created Lucifer, Lucifer was free to sin or not, just like every other creature, and God foresaw all possible things which could happen, including futures with Lucifer sinning and futures with Lucifer not sinning; thus it was possible for Lucifer to sin or not to sin, and the same for man. In those futures where man sinned, the Plan of Salvation would be implemented, but it was ready for any future, whether needed or not. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Samie Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 I thank you for your answer. But it did not yet make clear to me what your actual answer is (say, whether a Yes or a No) to my question. So, are you saying the plan was devised but as to its being implemented is UNSURE, since God is not sure whether man would sin or not? Please be direct with your answer so I won't be left guessing. Quote
Samie Posted November 10, 2015 Author Posted November 10, 2015 Consider the following as answerable by True or False: "Before the creation of the world, God already knew that man will fall into sin." My answer is True. What's your answer, please? Quote
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