Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[pnattmbtc]

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Samie: It appears that objectors to my position simply wants to talk about the future tense.

There are a couple of present things which some find problematic.  For example, there's no emphasis in what you write on the necessity of believing in Christ.  That's a rather large present problem.

Also your idea leads you to reject such Scriptures as 1 John 1:9 and John 1:12.  Also I think you think John 1:18 is wrong.  That's another present problem.

[pnattmbtc]

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Samie: Out of context?  Maybe, out of the context you want the verse to have.

No, it's out of context the verse actually has. All you have to do is read the verses surrounding it.

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2 1-3 To you, who were spiritually dead all the time that you drifted along on the stream of this world’s ideas of living, and obeyed its unseen ruler (who is still operating in those who do not respond to the truth of God), to you Christ has given life! We all lived like that in the past, and followed the impulses and imaginations of our evil nature, being in fact under the wrath of God by nature, like everyone else.

This is the context.  Who is "like everyone else?"  It is those who are dead in trespasses and sins.  When we were dead in trespasses and sins, we walked like everyone else, but "to you Christ has given life!" and now there is a difference between you and everyone else.  What's the difference?  "To you Christ has given life!" But everyone else, who does not have the life of Christ, walks according the stream of this world's ideas of living, just like you did when you were spiritually dead, like they are.

[pnattmbtc]

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 Samie: What reason would have prompted our God of agape love Who wants all men to be saved, for us to be “born unsaved” instead of “born saved”?

The issue is not God here, but sin.  God did not will for sin to happen, but it did, and for this reason not all human beings are saved.  If God could make everyone be saved, He would, but that's not possible.

[pnattmbtc]

In the Bible the word church is a translation of the Greek word ekklesia , meaning “a calling out.” It never refers to a building or meeting place, but always to people, the ones “called out” of the world's society by God calling them into His service.

[Wingnut]

18 hours ago, Samie said:

As to your proof verses, Ezek 16:1-6, that God made man spiritually alive to Satan, those verses do not say what you want them to say. Here again are those verses which say NOTHING about man's being made spiritually alive to Satan:

I have not yet given my proof that man was born alive to Satan, only that man was born dead to God.

This is my proof.  2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

I have not yet given my proof that man was born alive to Satan, only that man was born dead to God.

And that proof was no proof at all because God told the newborn, "Live".

^KJV Ezekiel 16:6   ⁶ And when I passed by thee, and saw thee polluted in thine own blood, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live; yea, I said unto thee when thou wast in thy blood, Live.

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

I have not yet given my proof that man was born alive to Satan, only that man was born dead to God.

This is my proof.  2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

You call that proof?  How does that prove your claim that people are born alive to Satan?  Why show a puppy when you are claiming you have a lion?  Produce a lion, brother.  Show your puppy to Pnatt. He might agree with you it's a lion you are showing.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

God draws all.  Only those who refuse to come to Christ will not be made alive.

Refuse? How can the dead refuse?

 

[Samie]

9 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

There are a couple of present things which some find problematic.  For example, there's no emphasis in what you write on the necessity of believing in Christ.  That's a rather large present problem.

That's a large problem for you, yes. Because you are measuring others with your own yardstick.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

The issue is not God here, but sin.  God did not will for sin to happen, but it did, and for this reason not all human beings are saved.  If God could make everyone be saved, He would, but that's not possible.

Not possible, to you. Not with God. All things are possible with Him.

Mark 10:26-27   ²⁶ And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?  ²⁷ And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

[Wingnut]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Wingnut wrote: 

This is my proof.  2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Samie wrote:

You call that proof?  How does that prove your claim that people are born alive to Satan?  Why show a puppy when you are claiming you have a lion?  Produce a lion, brother.  Show your puppy to Pnatt. He might agree with you it's a lion you are showing.

 

I am sorry Samie, but my answers are spiritually discerned  

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I am sorry Samie, but my answers are spiritually discerned  

Good. Then how come you don't seem to understand them?

[Wingnut]

57 minutes ago, Samie said:

Good. Then how come you don't seem to understand them?

My answer was full and complete.  Figure it out and give your full and complete response.

[Samie]

Just now, Wingnut said:

My answer was full and complete.  Figure it out and give your full and complete answer.

Already done. It's your turn to object, if you have any objections.

[pnattmbtc]

6 hours ago, Wingnut said:

I have not yet given my proof that man was born alive to Satan, only that man was born dead to God.

This is my proof.  2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

This text looks to be speaking of those who have rejected the Gospel.  The blinding that takes place here is allowed by God, but caused by the unbelievers who resist the Holy Spirit, refusing to be drawn to Christ.  There are many instances in Scripture of active voice being used where we would use passive voice.

[pnattmbtc]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Refuse? How can the dead refuse?

 

The same way you can.  By exercising free will.  Spiritually dead does not equal physically dead.

We (SDA's) are not Calvinists.  You are presenting a Calvinist idea, the "T" of "TULIP".  

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The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5). http://grace-gospel.org/tulip.htm (discussing the 5 points of Calvinism)

Interestingly they refer to the same text you do.  However, as SDA's, this has never been our understanding of this text.  What we believe is that had God not acted, then men would not be able to respond to the Gospel, but God has acted, making it possible for all to respond.  So the spiritually dead can be spiritually alive by believing, and God has given all (i.e. all the spiritually dead, then all are spiritually dead before they believe) the ability to believe.

Calvinism has crept into the church in other ways as well.

[pnattmbtc]

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Samie:There are a couple of present things which some find problematic.  For example, there's no emphasis in what you write on the necessity of believing in Christ.  That's a rather large present problem.

Me:That's a large problem for you, yes. Because you are measuring others with your own yardstick.

 

Why pick on me?  Pretty much everyone in this thread has been pointing out this issue to you.

[pnattmbtc]

28 minutes ago, Samie said:

Already done. It's your turn to object, if you have any objections.

I disagreed with Wingnut, and explained why, so he can comment if he chooses to, assuming he disagrees.  That way the dialog can continue.  You can remove a lot of the hiccups people have trying to discuss things with you if you choose.  Just be more cooperative as others ours.

You should be able to notice that when 8thday or Wingnut or myself have disagreements with each other (which we do, we all have points of agreement and disagreement) we are able to ask questions, make objections, without having to stop and say "you didn't answer my question!" (except as an oversight) and "I already answered it." and so forth.  If you are the only one who is having these hiccups, it's difficult to blame everyone else here.

And I'm not writing this in a negative way.  People enjoy engaging in discussions with you.  You have a unique way of expressing yourself and some unusual ideas ( by which I mean ideas we don't usually come across) forcing us to think about our own ideas, which is helpful.  So please don't take this in a negative way, but just try to be a bit more cooperative.

[Wingnut]

2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

This text looks to be speaking of those who have rejected the Gospel.  The blinding that takes place here is allowed by God, but caused by the unbelievers who resist the Holy Spirit, refusing to be drawn to Christ.  There are many instances in Scripture of active voice being used where we would use passive voice.

Hi pnattmbtc

You are making me work, when it is Samie who brushed off this scripture which I thought was perfectly clear, without any work on his part.

Active voice = "The boy kicked the ball"

Passive voice = "The ball was kicked by the boy"

Relevance here??  Does the voice change the facts?

8 hours ago, Wingnut said:

I have not yet given my proof that man was born alive to Satan, only that man was born dead to God.

This is my proof.  2 Corinthians 4:4

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

 

Is Satan God of all the world, or only part?

Those who believe not - does this refer to some or all who believe not, or is it age dependent?

And does the Bible not show that Satan even tries to influence believers, and we have to resist him?

To see how Satan influences the world and unbelievers, do a concordance search of "Satan", "Devil", "adversary" etc.

 

 

 Like this

[pnattmbtc]

49 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Hi pnattmbtc

You are making me work, when it is Samie who brushed off this scripture which I thought was perfectly clear, without any work on his part.

Active voice = "The boy kicked the ball"

Passive voice = "The ball was kicked by the boy"

Relevance here??  Does the voice change the facts?

Is Satan God of all the world, or only part?

Those who believe not - does this refer to some or all who believe not, or is it age dependent?

And does the Bible not show that Satan even tries to influence believers, and we have to resist him?

To see how Satan influences the world and unbelievers, do a concordance search of "Satan", "Devil", "adversary" etc.

 

 

 Like this

Thanks for pointing out to me that I've been inaccurate in what I've written regarding "active" and "passive."  What I meant to say is we say something like "God did this" and "God permitted this to happen", which is what I was referring to inaccurately as "active" and "passive" voice.  Scripture will often say "God did this" when the meaning is "God permitted this to happen".  That's the point I was wanting to make.

Regarding 2 Cor. 4 and Satan being the god (small "g") of this world, what I think happens is this:

1.God, through the Holy Spirit, draws all to Christ.

2.If the person resists/rejects this drawing, then (s)he is blinded by the god of this world, as Satan blinds all who choose not to believe.

[Wingnut]

6 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Thanks for pointing out to me that I've been inaccurate in what I've written regarding "active" and "passive."  What I meant to say is we say something like "God did this" and "God permitted this to happen", which is what I was referring to inaccurately as "active" and "passive" voice.  Scripture will often say "God did this" when the meaning is "God permitted this to happen".  That's the point I was wanting to make.

Regarding 2 Cor. 4 and Satan being the god (small "g") of this world, what I think happens is this:

1.God, through the Holy Spirit, draws all to Christ.

2.If the person resists/rejects this drawing, then (s)he is blinded by the god of this world, as Satan blinds all who choose not to believe.

Pnattmbtc, your last sentence, while true, misses the all-pervasive influence of Satan.

 

1) You are either Satan's property or God's.  There are only two camps.

Acts 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

2) The whole world is under the sway of sin. 1 John 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

If the above is true, then all are of the Devil - meaning His.

 

3) Is the whole world deceived?  Definitely yes.  Why? Revelation 12:9

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

 

4) All people fall into two camps.  Under the hegemony/power of Satan or under the hegemony/power of God.

That is what it means to be "ransomed" back.  We are slaves to sin and Satan.  Christ buys us back by paying a ransom.  

The word "redeemed" implies the same idea - bought back from Satan.  

 

5) The Devil is the world's "father" - just one of many reasons why we are born lost.Satan controls the world.  It is under his hegemony...

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil,...

 

6) The Devil is the god of this world in that all are born under his hegemony, and he owns all that is on earth.

Luke 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.    

         

7) The Devil exercises almost unlimited control over the unsaved and those who backslide..

2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

 

8) The Devil has power to kill.  The fact that all die shows that they are reaping the wages of sin. He that commits sin is of the Devil.

Hebrews 2:14 that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;    

  

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

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Me: 2.If the person resists/rejects this drawing, then (s)he is blinded by the god of this world, as Satan blinds all who choose not to believe.

Wingnut: Pnattmbtc, your last sentence, while true, misses the all-pervasive influence of Satan.

 

I didn't follow this.  Why would this sentence be missing the all-pervasive influence of Satan.

To me the most important thing is our view of God's character.  Satan is certainly influential in causing people to have a wrong view of God's character.  This is how he tempted Eve.  And Satan is so clever, even holy angels were not fully secure until the cross.

There are other factors which cause us to misview God, such as sin, our fallen nature, and the world, and, of course, Satan has been involved in all of this as well.

[Wingnut]

15 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

I didn't follow this.  Why would this sentence be missing the all-pervasive influence of Satan.

To me the most important thing is our view of God's character.  Satan is certainly influential in causing people to have a wrong view of God's character.  This is how he tempted Eve.  And Satan is so clever, even holy angels were not fully secure until the cross.

There are other factors which cause us to misview God, such as sin, our fallen nature, and the world, and, of course, Satan has been involved in all of this as well.

Correct me if you meant something different but I read you to be saying that when God calls/draws, Satan snatches that seed before it can germinate.  You wrote..".If the person resists/rejects this drawing, then (s)he is blinded by the god of this world, as Satan blinds all who choose not to believe."

But this person belongs to Satan from birth.  From birth Satan has been pumping his lies into the child's mind, enslaving the child to sin.

 

It sounded to me that you only saw Satan's intervention at the time of God calling.

This sub-topic is about WHEN Satan starts his influence.  My long post showed, at birth.  Your statement sounded like it contradicted this a bit.  We don't start out saved - we come enslaved to Satan.

[pnattmbtc]

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

Correct me if you meant something different but I read you to be saying that when God calls/draws, Satan snatches that seed before it can germinate.  You wrote..".If the person resists/rejects this drawing, then (s)he is blinded by the god of this world, as Satan blinds all who choose not to believe."

But this person belongs to Satan from birth.  From birth Satan has been pumping his lies into the child's mind, enslaving the child to sin.

 

It sounded to me that you only saw Satan's intervention at the time of God calling.

This post is about WHEN Satan starts his influence.  My long post showed, at birth.  Your statement sounded like it contradicted this a bit.

Both God and Satan are bearing influence on everyone's lives during their whole life.  I was saying that God is drawing everyone to Christ through the Holy Spirit, and if the person refuses to be drawn, that results in their being blind; i.e., the blindness is a result of refusing light, where Jesus is the true light that lightens everyone who comes into the world.

[Wingnut]

7 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Both God and Satan are bearing influence on everyone's lives during their whole life.  I was saying that God is drawing everyone to Christ through the Holy Spirit, and if the person refuses to be drawn, that results in their being blind; i.e., the blindness is a result of refusing light, where Jesus is the true light that lightens everyone who comes into the world.

Ahh  now I see where you are coming from.

I come from a completely different place that God is NOT drawing most people, but leaving them under darkness.   See Ezek 16

Only Israel in OT times was drawn - and that was not a call, but only an offer of blessings in this life.  To me the world as a whole is in darkness, with God enlightening and drawing folks occasionally.  There is no universal call.

[pnattmbtc]

4 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Ahh  now I see where you are coming from.

I come from a completely different place that God is NOT drawing most people, but leaving them under darkness.   See Ezek 16

Only Israel in OT times was drawn - and that was not a call, but only an offer of blessings in this life.  To me the world as a whole is in darkness, with God enlightening and drawing folks occasionally.  There is no universal call.

John 1:9 says that Jesus Christ is the true light which lightens everyone who comes into the world.  Romans 1 explains that all are without excuse, which, to my mind, can only mean that they are without excuse because God has given them light (else they would be with excuse).  Psalm 19 comes to mind.  Also there are the texts I quoted from Ellen White, such as this:

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"No man can come to Me, except the Father which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me." None will ever come to Christ, save those who respond to the drawing of the Father's love. But God is drawing all hearts unto Him, and only those who resist His drawing will refuse to come to Christ. (DA 387)

She says this both ways, for example:

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The soul that is yielded to Christ becomes His own fortress, which He holds in a revolted world, and He intends that no authority shall be known in it but His own. A soul thus kept in possession by the heavenly agencies is impregnable to the assaults of Satan. But unless we do yield ourselves to the control of Christ, we shall be dominated by the wicked one. We must inevitably be under the control of the one or the other of the two great powers that are contending for the supremacy of the world. It is not necessary for us deliberately to choose the service of the kingdom of darkness in order to come under its dominion. (DA 324)

How I understand this is that God is drawing all to Himself, and unless one refuses to be drawn, he will be drawn, so their is an act of the will involved in order to "unbelieve".  However, this act need not be conscious or deliberate.  It seems to me, sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.