Who is the One New Man Created on the Cross?

[Samie]

And so???

[Samie]

Just now, Samie said:

And so???

What next???

[Wingnut]

I have just had an epiphany on faith - something I never saw before.

Look at the context of Heb 11

 

Hebrews 11King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 

What do all these examples of faith have in common?

An action on the part of the believer.  This is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for.  Their faith (things hoped for) had SUBSTANCE in the form of an ACTION.

 

 

[Wingnut]

4 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

It's late here now, so I need to leave.  I'll give a nice answer tomorrow, but in brief, Jesus said "To know God is life eternal".  That's a start.

HAPPY ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz's

[Samie]

3 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I have just had an epiphany on faith - something I never saw before.

Look at the context of Heb 11

 

Hebrews 11King James Version (KJV)

11 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.

3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

 

What do all these examples of faith have in common?

An action on the part of the believer.  This is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for.  Their faith (things hoped for) had SUBSTANCE in the form of an ACTION.

Really??? And where's the evidence of things not seen?

[Wingnut]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

Really??? And where's the evidence of things hoped for?

Their ACTIONS were the EVIDENCE of their unseen faith.  (faith is an abstract noun).

Abstract Nouns

More ethereal, theoretical concepts use abstract nouns to refer to them. Concepts like freedom, love, power, and redemption are all examples of abstract nouns.

[Wingnut]

Even God's faith had an action - He made the world (Heb 11:3).

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, Samie said:

Really??? And where's the evidence of things not seen?

1 minute ago, Wingnut said:

Their ACTIONS were the EVIDENCE of their unseen faith.  (faith is an abstract noun).

Abstract Nouns

More ethereal, theoretical concepts use abstract nouns to refer to them. Concepts like freedom, love, power, and redemption are all examples of abstract nouns.

You're a real student of Pnatt's.

Scriptures: Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1 NKJ

Here's your translations:

Pnatt: Faith is evidence of things God hopes for.

Wingnut: Faith is the substance of things hoped for; ACTIONS were the EVIDENCE of their unseen faith.

You are both eloquent in your translations of the verse.

 

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

You're a real student of Pnatt's.

Scriptures: Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1 NKJ

Here's your translations:

Pnatt: Faith is evidence of things God hopes for.

Wingnut: Faith is the substance of things hoped for; ACTIONS were the EVIDENCE of their unseen faith.

You are both eloquent in your translations of the verse.

For me, I prefer not to translate it. I'll just simply believe what Scriptures say.

[Wingnut]

5 minutes ago, Samie said:

You're a real student of Pnatt's.

Scriptures: Faith is the substance of things hoped for; the evidence of things not seen. Heb 11:1 NKJ

Here's your translations:

Pnatt: Faith is evidence of things God hopes for.

Wingnut: Faith is the substance of things hoped for; ACTIONS were the EVIDENCE of their unseen faith.

You are both eloquent in your translations of the verse.

 

I am sorry you cannot see it Samie.

I never understood faith till 5 minutes ago.

I never understood these scriptures till 5 minutes ago.

 

James 2:17

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

James 2:20

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:26

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Biblical faith is ALWAYS accompanied by an action.

 

[Samie]

Cannot see what, brother?

Can't I see in Scriptures that Faith is the evidence of things not seen? I can see it. In fact I had pointed it out. What I cannot yet see is how your translations of Heb 11:1 truly reflect what the verse says.

[Wingnut]

5 minutes ago, Samie said:

For me, I prefer not to translate it. I'll just simply believe what Scriptures say.

Why not let all the examples which follow the definition help you understand it?  Does not each and every example of faith have an action?

I thought that faith happened in the head.  Now I see it happens in the hands and feet.

[Samie]

You said, seeing is believing.

Pnatt said: believing is seeing.

Scriptures say: faith is the evidence of things not seen.

That prompted me to say the faith you talk of is not the faith Scriptures talk of. And then you both came out with your own rendition of the verse.

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Cannot see what, brother?

Can't I see in Scriptures that Faith is the evidence of things not seen? I can see it. In fact I had pointed it out. What I cannot yet see is how your translations of Heb 11:1 truly reflect what the verse says.

Do you feel that faith is a belief?

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

You said, seeing is believing.

Pnatt said: believing is seeing.

Scriptures say: faith is the evidence of things not seen.

That prompted me to say the faith you talk of is not the faith Scriptures talk of. And then you both came out with your own rendition of the verse.

I just rescinded all prior definitions I may have had of faith.

[Samie]

Can we just stay first with the current issue of "seeing is believing" / "believing is seeing" vis-a-vis the faith Scriptures talk about?

[Samie]

3 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I just rescinded all prior definitions I may have had of faith.

OK. Copy that, brother.

[Samie]

So, what is now your stand relative to God's making us holy and perfect on the cross through Christ?

For me, I simply believe it as Scriptures say. How about you, brother?

[Wingnut]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

So, what is now your stand relative to God's making us holy and perfect on the cross through Christ?

For me, I simply believe it as Scriptures say. How about you, brother?

Like Pnatt asked for, what do you understand by Heb 11:1?

[Samie]

20 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Like Pnatt asked for, what do you understand by Heb 11:1?

You are just like your teacher. When asked, instead of answering, parry and heave. Good day, my brother. Sorry, but I won't waste my time.

[Samie]

The following Biblical truths were brought out in the preceding discussions:

1. All died when Christ died. 2 Cor 5:14, 15.

2.  All were made alive Together with Christ when He resurrected. Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13

3.  All were made holy and perfect on the cross.  Heb 10:10, 14.

It seems those who preach faith different from the faith Scriptures describe are not able to see this yet.

[Wingnut]

From my "epiphany" I am even more convinced that unless your faith has accompanying actions such as those listed in Heb 11, that faith is dead.  

Therefore it is impossible for folks to have accidental faith.  

All those of Heb 11 produced ACTIONS showing they believed in God.  Unbelievers cannot do this.  

So if anything, my position has become more entrenched in the idea that there is no such thing as being born in the life-raft since the world does not produce faith ACTIONS like those in HEB 11.

[Wingnut]

24 minutes ago, Samie said:

The following Biblical truths were brought out in the preceding discussions:

1. All died when Christ died. 2 Cor 5:14, 15.

2.  All were made alive Together with Christ when He resurrected. Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13

3.  All were made holy and perfect on the cross.  Heb 10:10, 14.

It seems those who preach faith different from the faith Scriptures describe are not able to see this yet.

I disagree with all three points.

[Samie]

27 minutes ago, Samie said:

The following Biblical truths were brought out in the preceding discussions:

1. All died when Christ died. 2 Cor 5:14, 15.

2.  All were made alive Together with Christ when He resurrected. Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13

3.  All were made holy and perfect on the cross.  Heb 10:10, 14.

#1 tells us we were fashioned into the Body of Christ on the cross, hence we died when He died.

#2 tells us, being His Body, we were resurrected TOGETHER with Him, when He rose from the tomb.

#3 tells us, our holiness and perfection, is the result of what God has done for us.

Henceforth, we are to live for Him Who died for us and rose again.  This simply translates to overcoming evil with good. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life.

[Wingnut]

6 minutes ago, Samie said:

#1 tells us we were fashioned into the Body of Christ on the cross, hence we died when He died.

#2 tells us, being His Body, we were resurrected TOGETHER with Him, when He rose from the tomb.

#3 tells us, our holiness and perfection, is the result of what God has done for us.

Henceforth, we are to live for Him Who died for us and rose again.  This simply translates to overcoming evil with good. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life.

Disagree with...

1. because only part of his body when a believer

2. because only made spiritually alive as a believer, eternally alive at His coming

3. because we are BEING made perfect.

 

At the cross Christ POTENTIALLY took the sins of all believers.  At the cross became the POTENTIAL to be cleaned up and saved.

Nothing happened to the wider world at the cross.