Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 Did Christ present the same details as Paul concerning the gospel? Keep in mind that it was after Christ's resurrection & ascension that He and God the Father handpicked Paul to deliver the gospel to the Gentiles! Proof: Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant a of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be Son of God with power according to the spirit of holiness by resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles Quote
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 Christ on the gospel: John 15:3 You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me.... So "in Christ" (the gospel) we have already been cleansed. We are complete "in Christ". We remain in Christ by faith.... Now Paul: Eph 2:5 But because of his great [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. So while we were dead in our sins (spiritually dead transgressors) God made us alive with Christ at the incarnation. By doing so we were saved not by faith, but by grace. At the incarnation Christ assumed our fallen humanity, from the womb of Mary, and that humanity was born spiritually alive. This means that when Christ, as God, assumed us that humanity came under the control of the Spirit of God. For 33 years Christ lived a perfect life. And where were we? "In Him". Therefore we were made obedient. This fulfilled the positive demand of God's law, which is "obey & live". And on the cross "our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with" Rom 6:6 This fulfilled the justice of God's law. Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.... At the resurrection, God the Father left "our body of sin" in the grave. Christ, as God, was raised with a glorified humanity, free from our sin nature and mortality (see Rom 8:2,) And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in heaven itself. That's the gospel. We are complete in Him, or as Christ said: "you have already been cleansed" Quote
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 "The gospels" (Mark, Luke, John, etc) are a record of what Christ said, right? Did Christ speak of the gospel? Yes! Did Christ of Himself go into the details or the mechanics of the gospel as the Apostle Paul? I say no! He chose Paul for that job as did God the Father. Quote
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 While God sent Christ into the world to be the gospel, it was Paul whom God commissioned to explain it. Romans 1:1: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God.... That is why the Pauline epistles comprises almost half of the New Testament. Read: http://www.jacksequeira.org/explaingospel5.htm Quote
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 The gospel is very simple, and was not invented by Paul. Paul himself said he received his gospel from Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ Himself preached the gospel, so clearly Paul would have preached the same gospel that Jesus preached since Jesus gave it to him. We would hardly expect Jesus to give Paul a different gospel than He Himself preached. Paul said that anyone who preached a different gospel than he did should be accursed. If Jesus preached a different gospel than Paul did, than Jesus should be accursed, by what Paul said. That can't be right. Jesus said to Nicodemus, "except a man be born again, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven". Jesus explained to Nicodemus how this works: Quote 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:14-16) This is the gospel, and has always been the gospel. No one has ever been saved except by faith in Jesus Christ. This is exactly what Paul preached! 8thdaypriest 1 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: Jesus Christ Himself preached the gospel.... You know, you keep repeating this, but you never give any proof using the Scriptures. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 2 minutes ago, Robert said: You know, you keep repeating this, but you never give any proof using the Scriptures. You didn't ask for proof. Also this is well known, so I assumed you knew it. I'll line up some verses for you, but you could easily do this yourself using a concordance. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 Here are a few verses that state that Christ preached the gospel: matt 4:23 mark 1:14-15 matt 9:35 matt 24:14 Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 Gal. 3:7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” These verses will bear much reading. An understanding of them will guard one against many errors. And it is not difficult to understand; simply hold to what it says, and you have it. a) The verse shows us that the gospel was preached at least as early as the days of Abraham. b. It was God Himself who preached it. Therefore, it was the true and only gospel. c) It was the same gospel that Paul preached. Therefore we have no other gospel than that which Abraham had. d) The gospel differs in no particular now from what it was in Abraham's day. God requires just the same things now that He required then and nothing more. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 I learned a new emoticon. b). that "b" followed by ")". So one will run into this issue if one lists a) .... c) d) etc. At any rate, the above is from "The Glad Tidings" by E. J. Waggoner. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 29 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: Here are a few verses that state that Christ preached the gospel: matt 4:23 mark 1:14-15 matt 9:35 matt 24:14 But, I need more than He said He preached the gospel, I need evidence from the Bible. Maybe He did preach the gospel in detail, as Paul did, but maybe it wasn't recorded in the Bible? Anyway, I need Biblical evidence. Quote
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert said: Eph 2:5 But because of his great [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. Rom 6:6 "our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with" Eph 2:6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.... Please show me where Christ stated the above of Himself or something close to what Paul stated of Christ. Can you? I'm waiting with breathless anticipation. Quote
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 29 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: "The Glad Tidings" by E. J. Waggoner. Yes, Waggoner has some nice things to say, but he isn't the Bible. Give me Bible.... Quote
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 Now you guys go easy on this old man (57) who just had back surgery (L5/S1 fusion). That's why I can chat with you most all day. Home recovering. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 3 hours ago, Robert said: But, I need more than He said He preached the gospel, I need evidence from the Bible. Maybe He did preach the gospel in detail, as Paul did, but maybe it wasn't recorded in the Bible? Anyway, I need Biblical evidence. Ok, so you're agreeing that Jesus preached the gospel, but are suggesting that it wasn't recorded? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, Robert said: Please show me where Christ stated the above of Himself or something close to what Paul stated of Christ. Can you? I'm waiting with breathless anticipation. I've already answered a few of these, and this can go on forever, like whack-a-mole. I don't mind playing whack-a-mole with you, but would like you to address the argument as a whole, as a logical argument. As a logical argument, we can look at the steps and the conclusion. 1.Paul said anyone who preached a different gospel than he did should be accursed. 2.Jesus preached the gospel. 3.Therefore Jesus preached the same gospel Paul did. Your assertion is that step 2 is incorrect, that Jesus did not preach the gospel, or, more accurately, that the gospel which Jesus preached was not recorded in scripture. I want to verify that I'm understanding you correctly. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 One of the issues that comes up in discussions like this is that we each approach things from a different paradigm. You have a corporate/forensic paradigm. I just made up this title, but I think it's reasonable descriptive and accurate. Mine is more of a "larger view" paradigm. The way our brains work is we seek to understand things in a way which is consistent. So when you read Scripture, you read it from a corporate/forensic standpoint. Discussing how to interpret certain verses is somewhat helpful, but you will always interpret them according to your paradigm (which everyone will do, to avoid cognitive dissonance). So, in addition to looking at different verses, I'd like to consider the paradigm itself, and this is why I've been bringing up some of the points I have. For example, a problem I see with your paradigm is it makes the words of Paul more important than the words of Jesus. You, in your paradigm, don't need the words of Jesus at all; all you need is for Him to pay a forensic price so Paul can talk about. Your paradigm would have been fine with Jesus not speaking at all, as long as He did, so Paul could talk about that. I think there is an obvious fundamental problem with a paradigm which leads to this sort of conclusion. Jesus said "My words are spirit, and they are life." I don't see how this makes sense in your paradigm, or that the words of Jesus Christ are of any value at all. Another problem I see with your paradigm is historic. This is in two contexts. One is Adventist, and the other is Christian. From an Adventist perspective, your paradigm includes certain ideas which are not Adventist. To name just one, the idea that our character will be changed when we did is not Adventist, which comes from a Wesleyan tradition. It's more reflective of reformationalist theology (as is much of your paradigm). From a Christian perspective, the forensic paradigm was invented by a Catholic monk (actually more by Calvin, but the foundations were set by Anselm) in the 11th century. If you look at what Christian writers wrote of the atonement before Anselm, you don't see this understanding of the atonement. Just from a rational perspective, it is unlikely, to put it mildly, that all Christian writers for a thousand years would have gotten this completely wrong, until a Catholic monk in the height of the darkness of the middle ages set them right. Another difficulty I have with the paradigm is it does not put God in a good light; it makes Him arbitrary. To explain one aspect of how this happens, consider the idea of what happens when one dies. Your paradigm suggests that as long as one has a certain cognitive belief, (that by Christ's doing and dying our debt to the law was paid for), God will change our characters so that we would be happy in heaven. This is completely arbitrary! Why should we need to believe this fact? Why not some other fact? Why not a fact which regards God's character, if God is going to save us according to what facts we believe? Also, historically, the idea you are suggesting is very new. Very few people have believed the way you are suggesting, also those from the Refomation theology are closeish. But how was someone like David or Abraham saved? From my paradigm, it was exactly the same way as anyone antime has been saved, and this is by accepting Christ as their personal savior, by being born again, with no need whatsoever of understanding anything forensic. Consider the publican who smote his breast, not daring to look up, and pled, "God, be merciful to me a sinner." He went away justified. That's all it takes. That's the gospel; God is gracious and forgives. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 3 hours ago, Robert said: Now you guys go easy on this old man (57) who just had back surgery (L5/S1 fusion). That's why I can chat with you most all day. Home recovering. You're not so old, but I have sympathies for your back. Sounds like "ouch!". Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: Ok, so you're agreeing that Jesus preached the gospel, but are suggesting that it wasn't recorded? I don't know....You need to show me where Christ preached "the truth as it is in Christ"! I don't think you'll find it because that job was given to Paul through both God the Father and Christ. Quote
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: You're not so old, but I have sympathies for your back. Sounds like "ouch!". Three back surgeries makes you feel old. Yes, young and foolish stuff....Sowing and reaping.... Quote
Robert Posted January 6, 2016 Author Posted January 6, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: 2.Jesus preached the gospel. Give me, if you don't mind, all the verses where Christ preaches the gospel. Not the quotes where He says "I preached the gospel", but the quotes where He explains the gospel. For example, Christ said "Remain in me and I in you" That first part, "remain in me" is linked to "the in Christ motif". We remain "in Christ" by faith and of course that's not the gospel, that's acceptance of the gospel or justification by faith. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 53 minutes ago, Robert said: Give me, if you don't mind, all the verses where Christ preaches the gospel. Not the quotes where He says "I preached the gospel", but the quotes where He explains the gospel. For example, Christ said "Remain in me and I in you" That first part, "remain in me" is linked to "the in Christ motif". We remain "in Christ" by faith and of course that's not the gospel, that's acceptance of the gospel or justification by faith. From my perspective, I would quote every which Jesus spoke, and not only that, but everything that he did, and this would be the gospel. Quote 24 This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. 25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. (John 21:24,25) At any rate, you have a false premise, from my point of view, which is that the gospel is extremely small in scope, consisting of a couple of verses which Paul wrote. I understand that the gospel is the good news concerning Jesus Christ, which is everything about Him. We've got two different paradigms working here. From your paradigm, the gospel which Jesus Christ is said to have preached was not actually recorded, which has to be one of the goofiest ideas I've heard. Really? Around 70 or so chapters recorded about Jesus Christ, which state that He preached the gospel (which He Himself stated in Matthew in the Great Commission), but the gospel which He is said to have preached was never recorded. The burden of proof is certainly with you on this one. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: Three back surgeries makes you feel old. Yes, young and foolish stuff....Sowing and reaping.... I understand this. Physical activity really helps in feeling young. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 6, 2016 Posted January 6, 2016 3 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: Ok, so you're agreeing that Jesus preached the gospel, but are suggesting that it wasn't recorded? Quote Robert: I don't know....You need to show me where Christ preached "the truth as it is in Christ"! I don't think you'll find it because that job was given to Paul through both God the Father and Christ. This is backwards. Jesus claimed to have preached the Gospel: Quote Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. The burden of proof is on you to prove that "this gospel" which Jesus referred to is not the gospel which Jesus Christ preached. Good luck with that! Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 7, 2016 Author Posted January 7, 2016 2 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: At any rate, you have a false premise, from my point of view, which is that the gospel is extremely small in scope, consisting of a couple of verses which Paul wrote. I've just quoted a few...there's more. I guess I'm not getting through to you. The gospel is the good news of how Christ saved fallen humanity from under the curse to under grace. The gospel is therefore the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as our corporate head, i.e., the 2nd Adam. The gospel is not what Christ does in you. That's the fruits of the gospel or the fruits of resting in Him by faith. Quote
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