The gospel according to Christ and Paul

[8thdaypriest]

pnattmbtc said:  "I view the death of the sinner not as something which God demands, as something which God imposes upon the transgressor as a punishment, but as a natural consequence.  Sin results in death because it involves the sinner separating Himself from God, who alone is the source of life.  Sin is predicated upon the principle of living for self, which is not a principle which can result in life, but only death.  This is the problem which God must solve!  It's not a legal problem, but a real problem."

I AGREE !!

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, Robert said:

Because if God took sinners to heaven, heaven would become a living hell.  Greed and corruption, i.e., human nature, would bring war, disease, etc.  Heaven would look like this polluted world.

The sinner must die.....

Don't believe me?

 For the law brings wrath Rom 4:15

"the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall by them live”....but Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them. Gal 3:12,10

“All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. Deut 28:45

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself....24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Ez 18:20,24

 

 

The "law" doesn't say the sinner will die BECAUSE the Lord will execute him.  It simply says the sinner will die. 

The "law" doesn't explain WHY the sinner dies. 

We now understand that the sinner dies BECAUSE of cause and effect.  And because he is separated from from the life of God.  God is the source of life.  Without HIM there can only be death. 

When we sin rebelliously, we are actually saying to God, "Go away." 

That's just what the antediluvians said.  "They said to God, depart from us"  (Job 22:14 & 17).   The LORD departed, and the flood (death) was the result.  

Let's say I print up a "law of your teeth".  It gives instruction on oral hygiene.  But you don't want to "obey" this law, so you don't follow it.  The result is the "death" of your teeth.  Who then "caused" the death of your teeth?  You?  Or me? 

I see the "law" describing cause and effect, much more than I see it proscribing a punishment direct from the hand God. 

[pnattmbtc]

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Robert:This is what Paul declared was the gospel.  Did not Christ preach the same thing?

You left out the context again.

 

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Yes, both say that Christ died for our sins, but how?  That's where Paul comes in.

You're claiming that Jesus did not speak of how He would die for our sins?  Therefore Jesus did not preach the gospel.  This is your argument, right?  Just from typing this out I can feel the absurdity under my fingers.

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See, the law demands the sinners death.

There's nothing about this in what Paul wrote when he said "this is the gospel" in 1 Cor. 15!

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How can Christ, who is sinless...who is Deity, take the punishment for something He didn't do?

Paul didn't talk about this in 1 Cor. 15 when he said "this is the gospel."

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Clearly the law demands the death of the sinner to be satisfied.

This was clear to Calvin.  Not to Paul or any of his hearers.

Your on shaky ground here on every level.

First of all, historically, your expressing ideas first articulated by Anselm, a Catholic monk, in the 11th century.  No early Christian writers understood the gospel the way you are suggesting.

Secondly, modern scholarship in regards to Paul does not agree with what you are asserting.  I'm not speaking of the Bible interpretation part of this, but what the evidence reveals in terms how how people lived and understood what the issues were at that time.  You're approaching this as if Paul lived in the time of Luther, and Paul's issues were Luther's issues, and Paul's hearers weere Luther's hearers.

Thirdly, the absurdity of your position is clear in that you would have Jesus Christ himself not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ!

Jesus said, "the words I speak, they are spirit and they are life," and "you will not come to Me that you might have life."  What do you understand this to mean?

Finally, the framework you are suggesting is not one that Adventism has had.  To quote just one thing:

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The traits of character you cherish in life will not be changed by death or by the resurrection. You will come up from the grave with the same disposition you manifested in your home and in society. Jesus does not change the character at His coming. The work of transformation must be done now. Our daily lives are determining our destiny. 13 MR 82

This is what our Adventist pioneers understood to be the case.  They all operated from this framework, including the leading proponents of justification by faith, Jones and Waggoner.

  

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"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ez 18:20

There is nothing forensic here.  It's cause and effect.  Sin leads to death.  There is not one whit here of an idea that the one who sin dies because this is a legal requirement.  Ezekiel says nothing remotely like this.

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So you can't just credit righteousness from a sinless person to a sinner.  That's unethical and no law will allow it.

Because of what Ezekiel wrote?  Because of Ezekiel 18:20?  Ezekiel isn't even discussing the same subject you are; he's not discussing the ethics of the law.  Here's Ezekiel 18:

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3 “As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For everyone belongs to me, the parent as well as the child—both alike belong to me. The one who sins is the one who will die.

5 “Suppose there is a righteous man
    who does what is just and right.
6 He does not eat at the mountain shrines
    or look to the idols of Israel.
He does not defile his neighbor’s wife
    or have sexual relations with a woman during her period.
7 He does not oppress anyone,
    but returns what he took in pledge for a loan.
He does not commit robbery
    but gives his food to the hungry
    and provides clothing for the naked.
8 He does not lend to them at interest
    or take a profit from them.
He withholds his hand from doing wrong
    and judges fairly between two parties.
9 He follows my decrees
    and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
    he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.

10 “Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things[a] 11 (though the father has done none of them):

“He eats at the mountain shrines.
He defiles his neighbor’s wife.
12 He oppresses the poor and needy.
He commits robbery.
He does not return what he took in pledge.
He looks to the idols.
He does detestable things.
13 He lends at interest and takes a profit.

Will such a man live? He will not! Because he has done all these detestable things, he is to be put to death; his blood will be on his own head.

 

You're trying to pluck fragments of verses out of context to support a framework you hold when the very texts you are quoting have nothing to do with what you are saying, and contradict your ideas.  Look at this:

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He follows my decrees
    and faithfully keeps my laws.
That man is righteous;
    he will surely live,
declares the Sovereign Lord.

This is declaring the very opposite of what you are claiming.

[8thdaypriest]

3 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Clearly the law demands the death of the sinner to be satisfied.

Actually pnattmbtc quoted Robert saying this.

Does the law "demand" the death of the sinner, or simply predict the death of one who continues to sin with rebellion? 

God said, "If you eat of it, you will die."  Didn't say, because I will execute you.  No.  Simply predicted death. 

[Wingnut]

When God told Adam and Eve that in the day they ate they would surely die, which death was He referring to, the first or the second death?  Physical death, or eternal death?

[LifeHiscost]

 

I would suggest the second death as both Adam and Eve had to be born again and Jesus had taken their penalty which was eternal death for their sin.

As I heard someone say one time, "I would rather die twice and be born once, than be born once and die twice.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, Wingnut said:

When God told Adam and Eve that in the day they ate they would surely die, which death was He referring to, the first or the second death?  Physical death, or eternal death?

The Hebrew means "dying you shall die".  The death would not be instantaneous.  It would come gradually.  But the process would begin when they ate the fruit.

Physical death IS eternal death, unless Jesus wakes you up.  Those who die the "second death" simply die physically a second time. 

Which is WHY I believe that the knowingly rebellious wicked will be resurrected at the second coming to hear judgment pronounced against them.  Then they will die (the second time) in the 7 vial plagues.  They won't be resurrected again to die a THIRD death.

Those who died in ignorance or immaturity, will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, to HEAR the truths of God.  Those who choose to serve Christ will NOT die again.  Those who rebel at Gog/Magog will die (for the second time) in the "fire of God". 

AFTER THAT - after Gog/Magog, comes the "great white throne" judgment, when God will destroy His own "memory" of the lost, so they can never be resurrected to life again - ever.  But those whose records are reviewed in this event are NOT ALIVE.  They are already physically DEAD. 

[8thdaypriest]

22 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

 

I would suggest the second death as both Adam and Eve had to be born again and Jesus had taken their penalty which was eternal death for their sin.

As I heard someone say one time, "I would rather die twice and be born once, than be born once and die twice.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

This makes no sense to me.  If Jesus took the "penalty" of every human who would ever exist, then no human would ever end up in the special "lake of fire".  But we know that many will.  So what happens?  Does Jesus give the penalty back? 

I do NOT believe that Jesus died "the second death".  I believe He died a perfect physical death - that is - He did not sin in the slightest degree, right up to the moment He died.  "He was obedient unto death, striving against sin." (Philippians)

[pnattmbtc]

The following article discusses the idiom used " (mot tamut)

https://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=67

From the article:

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Three Old Testament texts are cited in which this exact wording (“thou shalt surely die”) is used: Genesis 20:7; 1 Samuel 14:44; and 1 Kings 2:37. Each of these passages indicates a physical death.

 

[pnattmbtc]

©1982, Graham Maxwell –Page 1 of 5 JUSTIFICATION; SET RIGHT WITH GOD A Graham Maxwell

There once was peace throughout the universe. All the members of God’s vast family trusted each other, and all of them trusted their heavenly Father. He in turn could safely trust in them. And where there is such mutual trust and trustworthiness there is perfect peace, freedom and security.

But something went wrong in God’s universe. The Bible records a devastating breakdown of trust in His family, even to the extent of war in heaven. (Revelation 12:7-17) The brilliant leader of God’s angels – once called Lucifer, meaning ‘lightbearer’, but now called Satan or ‘the devil’, meaning ‘accuser’ or ‘adversary’ – succeeded in persuading many of his fellow angels that God was unworthy of their faith. How sin came in.

Thus sin entered the universe, for as Paul explains, sin is in essence a violation and breach of trust. (Romans 14:23) Or, as John defines it, sin is an attitude of lawlessness and rebellion. (John 3:4, NEB) All of God’s children – both loyal and disloyal – have been caught up in the consequences of this revolt. Particularly have His children on this planet been disastrously affected by this epidemic of disaffection and distrust.

Through it all God remains our gracious and grieving Father. He does not want to lose any of His children. (2 Peter 3:9) ‘How can I give you up, how can I let you go!’ is His cry in Hosea. (Hosea 11:8) If only He could win us back to trust Him, He as our Creator could readily heal the damage done. Setting things right. To set right what has gone wrong in His family, God must first persuade His deceived and hurting children to trust Him once again. All that He has done to make salvation possible, and all that He is willing to do for us is of no avail if we do not trust Him.

There is no substitute for trust. This explains Paul’s answer to the jailer in Philippi. When the earthquake broke open the doors of the prison, the terrified man desperately inquired, ‘What must I do to be saved?’ This was no time for lengthy explanation. All the jailer needed was Paul’s memorably brief reply, ‘ “Put your trust in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” ’ (Acts 16:25-34, NEB) Some Bible translations quote Paul as saying, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus.’ Others have, ‘Place your faith in the Lord Jesus.’

Actually, all three words, ‘faith’, ‘belief’, and ‘trust’ are translated from the same Greek word used by the apostle.  A question of trust. All God has ever asked of His people throughout the universe is trust. But this is no trivial request. The faith that God desires is more than the mere acknowledgement of His existence and power. The devils have a faith like that, and in their distrust of so powerful a God they ‘tremble with fear’. (James 2:19, GNB) Our heavenly Father desires our love, our reverence, our admiration for His wise and gracious ways, our willingness to listen and obey – all freely given because we have found Him to be so utterly worthy of such regard.

But is it safe to trust in God? Surely it would not be wise to trust someone we do not know – and know well? God’s enemies have charged that He cannot be trusted. Has God replied to these accusations? Do we find His answers a sufficient basis for our faith? The sixty-six books of the Bible are a record of the lengths to which God has been willing to go to convince us of His trustworthiness. There are no shortcuts to trust. Claims of trustworthiness prove nothing. The devil can make such claims. Hitler claimed he could be trusted, and history showed the folly of believing mere promises and claims without confirming evidence. Even though God has been falsely accused, there is only one way to meet the charge. Only by the demonstration of trustworthiness over a long period of time and under a great variety of circumstances – especially difficult ones – can trust be re-established and confirmed. When God came among us.

This is why God in so ‘many and various ways’ demonstrated the truth about Himself, ‘to our fathers’ through the long centuries of Old Testament history. (Hebrews 1:1, RSV) Finally He sent His Son to live among us. And the way Jesus lived, the way He treated people, the things He taught about His Father, and most of all the unique and awful way He died, were the clearest revelation of the truth about the trustworthiness of God the universe will ever see or need. What a price God has been willing to pay to restore and confirm trust in His family!

And the costly demonstration was not only for the benefit of us sinful mortals. The whole universe has been involved. Christ did not die for sinful men alone. He shed His blood for sinless angels too! For they, too, needed the faith-confirming message of the cross. Paul explained this to the believers in Colosse. ‘Through the Son, then, God decided to bring the whole universe back to himself.

God made peace through his Son’s death on the cross and so brought back to himself all things, both on earth and in heaven.’ (Colossians 1:19, 20, GNB)  Twice in his letter to the Ephesians Paul wrote of God’s purpose to bring His whole family back together again in unity and harmony. (Ephesians 1:10; 3:10) As Jesus said before His crucifixion, ‘ “When I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to me.” ’ (John 12:32, GNB)

The cross – a magnet. The 1611 first edition of the King James Version has Jesus saying that He will draw ‘every man’. But later editions of this most famous of all English Bibles carefully indicate, by placing it in italics, that the word ‘men’ has been supplied. Paul’s larger understanding of the involvement of the onlooking universe in the meaning of the cross indicates that the Good News Bible ‘ “I will draw everyone” ’ is to be preferred.

Just how Jesus’ death on the cross served to meet Satan’s charges and prove the trustworthiness of God’s character and government is too large a topic for this brief article. (See Romans 3:25, 26) But suffice it to say that ever since Christ cried out on Calvary, ‘It is finished’, the loyal angels have never tired of assuring God that He has won their everlasting love and trust. (Revelation 4:8; 5:11-14) Only here on this planet are there any remaining doubts about the truthfulness and trustworthiness of God!

But the Bible records that through the centuries God has succeeded in winning back many sinners to be His trusting friends. One of the most celebrated of these was Abraham, and the Old Testament stories of his experiences and conversations with God are most encouraging examples of the kind of relationship our heavenly Father desires to have with His children. Several times Abraham failed to keep faith with God. But finally he came to know and trust God well enough to be willing to sacrifice his son.

The Bible offers a most enlightening explanation of how heaven evaluated this demonstration of Abraham’s faith. ‘Was it not by his action, in offering his son Isaac upon the altar, that our father Abraham was justified? Surely you can see that faith was at work in his actions, and that by these actions the integrity of his faith was fully proved. Here was fulfillment of the words of Scripture: “Abraham put his faith in God, and that faith was counted to him as righteousness”; and elsewhere he is called “God’s friend”.’ (James 2:21-23, NEB)

This passage of Scripture, as translated in the New English Bible, contains the famous theological term ‘justified’. Through the centuries Christian theologians have developed a considerable vocabulary of Latin origin to describe the provisions of the plan of salvation – such terms as ‘justification’, ‘sanctification’, ‘propitiation’, ‘expiation’, ‘vicarious’, ‘substitution’, and many more. ‘Justify’ = set right. These are grand old words and part of our Christian heritage. Jesus and Paul, of course, never used them. Jesus spoke Aramaic.

Paul wrote in Greek. And, if you prefer, there are much simpler ways of translating the terms they used.  For example, the Greek word often rendered ‘justify’ may be understood more simply as ‘set right’, ‘put right’. God has been working to put right what went wrong in His universe, to resolve the conflict of distrust in His family. When a person has been won back to trust, it can be truly said of him that he has been set right once again with God. It is helpful to compare the Good News Bible translation of this passage in James about God’s regard for Abraham’s friendship and faith. ‘How was our ancestor Abraham put right with God?

It was through his actions when he offered his son Isaac on the altar. Can’t you see? His faith and his actions worked together; his faith was made perfect through his actions. And the scripture came true that said, “Abraham believed God, and because of his faith God accepted him as righteous.” And so Abraham was called God’s friend.’ (James 2:21-23, GNB)

Trusting friendship is the very essence of what God has always wanted of His children. He inspired Hosea to write to Israel, ‘It is true love that I have wanted, not sacrifice; the knowledge of God, rather than burnt offerings. But they, like Adam, have broken their agreement; again and again they have played me false.’ (Hosea 6:6, 7, Phillips)

For many years God pleaded with His erring people to come back and be faithful once again. Patiently He kept on calling, ‘Come home, Israel, come home to the Lord your God! For it is your sins which have been your downfall. Take words of repentance with you as you return to the Lord; say to him, Clear us from all our evil.’ And God promised, ‘I will love them with all my heart.’ (Hosea 14:1, 2, 4, Phillips) The prodigal son did just this. He came home with words of repentance. And his father was so glad to see him that he didn’t let him finish his confession. This is how our heavenly Father feels about every sinner who comes back, Jesus explained. (Luke 15:10-32) But Israel in Hosea’s day did not choose to come home. And God cried over them, ‘My people are bent on turning away from me. . . . How, oh how, can I give you up, Ephraim! How, oh how, can I hand you over, Israel!’ (Hosea 11:7, 8, Phillips) God will miss us if we’re lost. He will miss us if we don’t come home.

Think of the eternal void brilliant Lucifer will leave in the infinite memory of God. But for many of us the revelation of the truth about our God, the picture of God presented through all of Scripture, leads us to repentance (Romans 2:4) and to faith. (Romans 10:17) In trust and confidence we look forward to seeing God. Though our heavenly Father knows everything about us, we have no need to be afraid. God is forgiveness personified. He will cast all our sins behind His back. (Isaiah 38:17) He will ‘send them to the bottom of the sea!’ (Micah 7:19, GNB)  And He will not only forgive us but even treat us as if we had always been His loyal children. Remember how God spoke of sinful but repentant David as having always walked before Him, ‘ “with integrity of heart and uprightness” ’! (1 Kings 9:4, RSV) No wonder Paul could say that those who have been set right with God enjoy peace with their heavenly Father. (Romans 5:1) How can we be sure that we have been set right with God? Or, if you prefer, how can we be sure that we have been justified? Well . . . have we been won back to trust Him?

Are we willing to listen and accept His forgiveness? Do we trust Him enough to allow Him to correct and heal us? Have we, like David, welcomed the Holy Spirit to create new hearts and right spirits within us? Could we be trusted with the privileges of freedom and eternal life? Has all rebelliousness gone, and has love taken its place? As more light has come, do we always say yes to the truth? For we have much yet to learn about our infinite God. We may know as little theology as the thief on the cross. But if we love, admire, and trust in God’s Son as he did that crucifixion day, we are safe to admit to the kingdom. (Luke 23:39-43) Like Mary, it will be our greatest delight to sit at Jesus’ feet and hear Him tell us more about the Father. You see, to be set right with God, all He asks of us is unreserved, whole-hearted trust.

[pnattmbtc]

I reposted this, which had been posted in the are we born justified thread, as it seems to fit here, especially in regards to the question we're discussing.  Consider the last paragraph:

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Are we willing to listen and accept His forgiveness? Do we trust Him enough to allow Him to correct and heal us? Have we, like David, welcomed the Holy Spirit to create new hearts and right spirits within us? Could we be trusted with the privileges of freedom and eternal life? Has all rebelliousness gone, and has love taken its place? As more light has come, do we always say yes to the truth? For we have much yet to learn about our infinite God. We may know as little theology as the thief on the cross. But if we love, admire, and trust in God’s Son as he did that crucifixion day, we are safe to admit to the kingdom. (Luke 23:39-43) Like Mary, it will be our greatest delight to sit at Jesus’ feet and hear Him tell us more about the Father. You see, to be set right with God, all He asks of us is unreserved, whole-hearted trust.

If the purpose of Jesus taking our "penalty" is that this paragraph may be accomplished, that sheds a different light on it, as opposed to if He did so to solve a legal problem.

[LifeHiscost]

4 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This makes no sense to me.  If Jesus took the "penalty" of every human who would ever exist, then no human would ever end up in the special "lake of fire".  But we know that many will.  So what happens?  Does Jesus give the penalty back? 

The forgiveness of sin is a gift of God through His Son Jesus. A gift from the Father is never forced on anyone who wishes not to accept the gift.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.....Acts 4

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus was "made to be sin". 

So Christ was a sinner?

[Wingnut]

I am undecided as to whether it is the first or second deaths A&E were warned about.

I see these two as completely different deaths.  God has complete power to resurrect one from the first death (almost like awakening one from a sleep) whereas the second is final.

Add to this my views on A&E that they did not start out saved or with eternal life.

A&E had to eat of the Tree of Life, showing they were born lost, like all of us.

And, they were untested, like all of us.

My belief is that while living in Eden for however long it was before the fall, they did OK.

My belief is that OK was not good enough with God.  They were Laodicean.  Not passionate about God, but enjoying the benefits of the garden.  They were more into each other than into God.

So God unleashes Satan, and almost instantly they succumb, and sin.

They show no remorse or repentance which someone like David did, who really cared about the Lord.  They only cared about themselves having to suffer punishment.   This proves their half-fallen, Laodicean condition, even before the fall.  God did not want to give eternal life to the pre-fall A&E for precisely the reason that they were as yet untested.  He did not want another Satan, or fallen human living forever.

Thus, when they fell, they COULD have repented, and been given grace and not suffered the second death.  I am 100% convinced in my mind that A&E will die the second death and be thrown into the lake of fire, tho I know Ellen disagrees with me on this.  A&E are used throughout the Bible as the poster children for the opposite of Christ.  One gave life, one took life.

Thus, if there was a chance of escaping the second death, surely God must have been promising them the first death for sin, and then the onus was on them to accept His sacrifice to cover their sins, which they refused.

This ties in with the article Pnatt quoted which says "Three Old Testament texts are cited in which this exact wording (“thou shalt surely die”) is used: Genesis 20:7; 1 Samuel 14:44; and 1 Kings 2:37. Each of these passages indicates a physical death."

I also agree with Rachel, that all who never heard of Christ will be resurrected (Rev 20:5) to make a choice or not to follow Christ in the 8M.

Thus every human will have had to make a conscious choice for God at some stage, even A&E.

[phkrause]

6 hours ago, Wingnut said:

When God told Adam and Eve that in the day they ate they would surely die, which death was He referring to, the first or the second death?  Physical death, or eternal death?

The first death, which in my mind would be a "rest death!"

[Wingnut]

18 minutes ago, phkrause said:

The first death, which in my mind would be a "rest death!"

I agree with you.  Miracles never cease  

[Robert]

On 1/6/2016 at 10:18 AM, Robert said:

While God sent Christ into the world to be the gospel, it was Paul whom God commissioned to explain it.

Romans 1:1: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God....

That is why the Pauline epistles comprises almost half of the New Testament. 

Read:  http://www.jacksequeira.org/explaingospel5.htm

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law (the Jews)—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

The law has authority over us as long as we live.  It's demands are two-fold:

Obey and live:   

“the man who does them shall by them live.” (Gal 3:12)

Disobey and die:  

"Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." (Gal 3:10)

The problem is we have sinned and all of us fall short of God's agape love.  There we must die!  We must take the curse of the law, which is the 2nd death.

How did Christ legally saved us from the curse of the law?

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, "you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

What did Romans 7:1 state?  "The law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

But if we died "in Christ" then the law can't touch us...it can't condemn us and we don't have to face the 2nd death.

Romans 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code"

We died to the law (it demanded our death) in the body of Christ.  So then, as far as the law is concerned, we are dead...executed by the law itself. 

This is how how can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law!

[Robert]

12 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

For example, there were those, such as the rich, young, ruler, who Jesus asked to sell all he had and come follow him.  

 The Rich Young ruler asked the question "what good thing must I do to have eternal life"?

Quote

He also did this with Matthew (or, rather, just follow him; Matthew was rich, but walked away from his profession to follow Christ).

 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” (Matt 19:27) Doing something good, to get something back is not doing something good, it's being self-centered.  That's not agape.

Notice, that the RYR wanted to earn heaven by doing something good.  And Christ gave him the measuring stick of righteousness, the law.  Read the context.

Therefore, if one wishes to gain heaven fully are partially by his law performance he must stop all self-seeking.

How did you obtain the things you have, pnattmbtc?  Answer: Your love of self (sin). 

Agape, says Paul, "is not self-seeking" (see 1 Cor 13:5 NIV).  It takes "agape" to fulfill the law, without it you're not keeping the law.

Face it, you are a sinner failing to live Christ's agape love.  You are not perfect, as God is perfect and therefore your only hope is the gospel received by faith.  Who are you kidding?  Not me!

[Wingnut]

23 minutes ago, Robert said:

Romans 7:1 Do you not know, brothers and sisters—for I am speaking to those who know the law (the Jews)—that the law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

The law has authority over us as long as we live.  It's demands are two-fold:

Obey and live:   

“the man who does them shall by them live.” (Gal 3:12)

Disobey and die:  

"Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them." (Gal 3:10)

The problem is we have sinned and all of us fall short of God's agape love.  There we must die!  We must take the curse of the law, which is the 2nd death.

How did Christ legally saved us from the curse of the law?

Romans 7:4 So, my brothers and sisters, "you also died to the law through the body of Christ"

What did Romans 7:1 state?  "The law has authority over someone only as long as that person lives?

But if we died "in Christ" then the law can't touch us...it can't condemn us and we don't have to face the 2nd death.

Romans 7:6 "But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code"

We died to the law (it demanded our death) in the body of Christ.  So then, as far as the law is concerned, we are dead...executed by the law itself. 

This is how how can God justify the ungodly and still maintain His integrity to His law!

The law leaves us all as sinners.

Where I disagree with you is when you out of the blue write the following "We died to the law (it demanded our death) in the body of Christ."

This is where your choo choo jumps the tracks.

Christ died for us.  We did not "die to the law in the body of Christ" whatever that is supposed to mean.

The law still has total hold over every human, exacting death from all of us.

Only the gift of God can save us from death.  And for this we have to approach Christ, accept His being our Lord, and receive life.

This is such basic Christianity that I marvel so many stumble at this basic tenet of Christianity these days.

[LifeHiscost]

44 minutes ago, Robert said:

So Christ was a sinner?

…11And the testimony is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life....1John 5

If Jesus ever were a sinner His death would have been as sure as the enemy of souls.

16Do you not know that you are a temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.

.....1 Corinthians 3

Since Jesus became a Man, had He defiled Himself, He along with the rest of sinful man, would have lost His/ their eternal Life, according to the promise of God.....

2in the hope of eternal life, which God, Who cannot lie, promised long ages ago, 3but at the proper time manifested, even His word, in the proclamation with which I was entrusted according to the commandment of God our Savior,…Titus 1

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

If Jesus ever were a sinner His death would have been as sure as the enemy of souls.

"The wages of sin is death"

How could Christ die, because it is sin that takes you to the grave?

How can God's law condemn a sinless man?

 Sounds fishy, unless you know the gospel, the truth as it is "in Christ"

[Robert]

12 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Christ died for us.  We did not "die to the law in the body of Christ" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Then you are calling the Apostle Paul a liar....

Romans 7:4 "you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead,"

Rom 6:6 "We know that our old life was crucified with him"

2 Cor 5:14 "One died for all, and therefore all died"

Christ's death as the son of man was a corporate death.  

[LifeHiscost]

4 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

If Jesus ever were a sinner His death would have been as sure as the enemy of souls.

"The wages of sin is death"

How could Christ die, because it is sin that takes you to the grave, if He weren't a sinner?

How can God's law condemn a sinless man?  Sounds fishy, unless you know the gospel, the truth as it is "in Christ"

 

That's the point, Jesus a righteous and holy deity, took the death that we deserved that we might receive the life that He deserves.

Sound fishy?

That's the way it is with most of mankind.

…7Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon. 8"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways," declares the LORD. 9"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways higher than your ways And My thoughts than your thoughts.…Isaiah 55

[Wingnut]

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

Then you are calling the Apostle Paul a liar....

Romans 7:4 "you also died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you could be joined to another, to the one who was raised from the dead,"

Rom 6:6  6 "We know that our old life was crucified with him"

When you became part of the body of Christ by accepting Him as Saviour, then you became dead to the power of the law to kill you eternally.

Where you err, is to think Christ's sacrifice blanket applies to the unsaved.

[LifeHiscost]

And if we accept the Word as it reads instead of waiting till we understand everything, we'll eliminate a lot of stress. Especially when feeling we have to answer to their satisfaction, every person's arguement

God is Love!~Jesus saves!