The gospel according to Christ and Paul

[pnattmbtc]

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While God sent Christ into the world to be the gospel, it was Paul whom God commissioned to explain it.

Romans 1:1: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God....

That is why the Pauline epistles comprises almost half of the New Testament. 

 

Not that this means much, but pretty sure John wrote more than Paul; actually positive, unless one counts Hebrews as Paul, in which case I'm not positive.

[Wingnut]

24 minutes ago, Robert said:

No, God (Deity) has immortality.  This would be Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  

Christ the son of man, not Christ the Son of God.  Getting a bit confused here....

And this is what the scripture you quoted really says.

1 Tim 6

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

This is speaking of God the Father "who only hath immortality... whom no man hath seen".

So this scripture says the Father ONLY has immortality.  People have seen Christ.

No man has ever seen the Father.  Thus this is the Deity being referred to as the one "whom no man hath seen, nor can see".

It is you saying God (Deity) has immortality.  1 Tim 6:16 proves you wrong.  This can only be referring to the Father.  

When we are changed to Spirit, we will put on immortality.

 

1 Corinthians 15:53

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortalmust put on immortality. : 54  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

This is speaking about us putting on immortality.

My question to you is this.  Will 1 Tim 6:16 be nullified when more have immortality?  Then it will not be "who only hath immortality".

Putting it another way, will we be more death resistant than angels which you agree can die.  Will we as immortals be able to die?

 

[Robert]

44 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Not that this means much, but pretty sure John wrote more than Paul....

Of those 138,020 words, the most prolific writers of the New Testament were:

  Author  Books                 # of Words      % of NT   

  Luke    Gospel of Luke        37,933          27% 
              Acts                               

  Paul     Romans                  32,407          23%
              1 Corinthians

              2 Corinthians

              Galatians

              Ephesians

              Philippians

              Colossians

              1 Thessalonians

              2 Thessalonians

              1 Timothy

              2 Timothy

              Titus

              Philemon

 

  John    Gospel of John         28,092           20%

              1 John

              2 John

              3 John

              Revelation

[Robert]

If you go with the greatest number of books (i.e., Romans, Galatians, etc) it goes to Paul

[pnattmbtc]

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For example, there were those, such as the rich, young, ruler, who Jesus asked to sell all he had and come follow him.  

 The Rich Young ruler asked the question "what good thing must I do to have eternal life"?

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He also did this with Matthew (or, rather, just follow him; Matthew was rich, but walked away from his profession to follow Christ).

 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?” (Matt 19:27) Doing something good, to get something back is not doing something good, it's being self-centered.  That's not agape.

Notice, that the RYR wanted to earn heaven by doing something good.  And Christ gave him the measuring stick of righteousness, the law.  Read the context.

Therefore, if one wishes to gain heaven fully are partially by his law performance he must stop all self-seeking.

How did you obtain the things you have, pnattmbtc?  Answer: Your love of self (sin). 

Agape, says Paul, "is not self-seeking" (see 1 Cor 13:5 NIV).  It takes "agape" to fulfill the law, without it you're not keeping the law.

Face it, you are a sinner failing to live Christ's agape love.  You are not perfect, as God is perfect and therefore your only hope is the gospel received by faith.  Who are you kidding?  Not me!

 

This whole response is not responsive to what I wrote!  You, once again, left out the context.  What I was responding to was a spurious argument you made, and why your argument was such.  You didn't respond to the points I made, but are talking about something else.

However, I'll respond to a couple of points.  One is regarding how I obtained the things I have.  My answer, which is scriptural, is that God gave them to me.  For this, I should be thankful.  This is what the Bible teaches.

Regarding your concept of perfection, it is not Biblical.  For example, if you look at the context of being perfect as God is perfect, you will see that Christ is speaking of loving your enemies.

Here's something from A. G. Maxwell:

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Though our heavenly Father knows everything about us, we have no need to be afraid. God is forgiveness personified. He will cast all our sins behind His back. (Isaiah 38:17) He will ‘send them to the bottom of the sea!’ (Micah 7:19, GNB)

 And He will not only forgive us but even treat us as if we had always been His loyal children. Remember how God spoke of sinful but repentant David as having always walked before Him, ‘ “with integrity of heart and uprightness” ’! (1 Kings 9:4, RSV) No wonder Paul could say that those who have been set right with God enjoy peace with their heavenly Father. (Romans 5:1) How can we be sure that we have been set right with God? Or, if you prefer, how can we be sure that we have been justified?

Well . . . have we been won back to trust Him? Are we willing to listen and accept His forgiveness? Do we trust Him enough to allow Him to correct and heal us?

Have we, like David, welcomed the Holy Spirit to create new hearts and right spirits within us? Could we be trusted with the privileges of freedom and eternal life?

Has all rebelliousness gone, and has love taken its place? As more light has come, do we always say yes to the truth? For we have much yet to learn about our infinite God.

We may know as little theology as the thief on the cross. But if we love, admire, and trust in God’s Son as he did that crucifixion day, we are safe to admit to the kingdom. (Luke 23:39-43) Like Mary, it will be our greatest delight to sit at Jesus’ feet and hear Him tell us more about the Father.

You see, to be set right with God, all He asks of us is unreserved, whole-hearted trust.

 

I think your perfectionist ideas of the law are off base, as is your whole concept of what the fundamental issue is.  The Great Controversy is a controversy over what?  Over God's character.  A misrepresentation of God's character is what led angels into sin, and man as well.  What needs to be fixed is our perception of God's character.  This is what Jesus was all about, showing us what God was really like, so that we might be brought back into harmony with Him.

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And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in yourmind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled. 1 Cor. 1:21

 

[pnattmbtc]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Of those 138,020 words, the most prolific writers of the New Testament were:

  Author  Books                 # of Words      % of NT   

  Luke    Gospel of Luke        37,933          27% 
              Acts                               

  Paul     Romans                  32,407          23%
              1 Corinthians

              2 Corinthians

              Galatians

              Ephesians

              Philippians

              Colossians

              1 Thessalonians

              2 Thessalonians

              1 Timothy

              2 Timothy

              Titus

              Philemon

 

  John    Gospel of John         28,092           20%

              1 John

              2 John

              3 John

              Revelation

Looks like I confused John with Luke.  I was remembering that someone wrote more than Paul.

[pnattmbtc]

Robert, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to be born again, and how is one born again?

[pnattmbtc]

Jesus said, "the words I speak to you, they are spirit and they are life".  What does this mean?

[Robert]

1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said:

Regarding your concept of perfection, it is not Biblical.

I quoted the Bible, in context, so how is that unbibical?

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 My answer, which is scriptural, is that God gave them to me.  For this, I should be thankful. 

Really?  No, God gives you life and with that life you have lived for self (maybe not entirely).  That's how you acquired your things within our Capitalistic society. 

If God gave you your things then God gave Hugh Hefner of Playboy his goodies.  We can play this game all day long....

[Robert]

I think you fail to understand the essence of all sin.

I'll quote Jack:

 David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth.  This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12].  The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2].  It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.”  Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious.  According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

This is why we need the gospel

[Robert]

33 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

Robert, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to be born again, and how is one born again?

Off subject

[Wingnut]

IMMORTALITY

Immortality means living forever.

Angels, both good and bad, have immortality.

Christ and the Father have immortality.

Immortals can however die.

Christ died.  Satan will die.  The demons will be thrown into the lake of fire and die.

Immortality is conditional and sometimes involves continually eating manna, the Tree of Life etc.

One day we will put on immortality.

Most think this means we CANNOT die.  

What it actually means is that we will not die, for as long as the Father wishes to keep us around, which is forever.

Likewise, the good angels in heaven will be kept by the Father forever.  But if they become a fallen angel, God will dispose of them.

If we, 10 billion years from now organise a rebellion in heaven, we too will die.

Don't bother quoting me the scriptures about death and hell being destroyed.  Our immortality will always be conditional.

Even Christ could and did die, completely, and God raised him back to immortality, making Christ the firstborn of many [immortal] brethren.

But just as Christ could and did die, any time in the future, God could turn us to mortal and kill us as he did His Son.

Only, this time God would not resurrect us.

From 1 Tim 6:16 it seems that only the Father truly has immortality inherent in Him.  From Him flows all other immortality.

Only in the Father is immortality unconditional such that it cannot be taken away.

[pnattmbtc]

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Me:Regarding your concept of perfection, it is not Biblical.

Robert: I quoted the Bible, in context, so how is that unbibical?

 

 No you didn't.  You quoted it out of context.  I explained the context to you.

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 Me: My answer, which is scriptural, is that God gave them to me.  For this, I should be thankful. 

Robert: Really?  

 

 

Yes, really.  I'm surprised you don't know this.  This is all throughout Scripture.  For example:

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Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

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Robert: No, God gives you life and with that life you have lived for self (maybe not entirely).  That's how you acquired your things within our Capitalistic society. 

I think James has this correct, and you are not looking at this in the right way.

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If God gave you your things then God gave Hugh Hefner of Playboy his goodies.  We can play this game all day long.

Look at the James text.  But this is all through Scripture.  Here's another one:

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For every beast of the forest is mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills. Ps. 50:10

It's amazing that I can right that all good things that I have come from God, and I should be thankful for this, and you would somehow find fault with this.  Here's another text:

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18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. (1 Thess 5:18)

Here's another one:

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Thine, O LORD is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty: for all that is in the heaven and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all. Both riches and honour come of thee, and thou reignest over all; and in thine hand is power and might; and in thine hand it is to make great, and to give strength unto all. (1 Chron 29)

 

[pnattmbtc]

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Me: Robert, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus he had to be born again, and how is one born again?

Robert: Off subject

 

The subject is "the gospel according to Christ and Paul".  If you ask 100 people what the gospel is according to Jesus Christ, maybe 99 will think of John 3:16.  So how is this off subject?

Please answer the question.

[pnattmbtc]

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Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Matt. 7:24

How about this?  Is this true?  Or should it be the following:

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Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of my servant Paul, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: Robert. 7:24

 

[Robert]

3 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. James 1:17

Let's look at the context:

 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. 18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of first fruits of His creatures.

The good gift is spelled out in verse 18.  He isn't speaking of material things....

[pnattmbtc]

I quoted other texts besides this one, such as the cattle on a thousand hills.  It's really your position that the things we have are not gifts from God? (e.g. health, wealth, a sound mind, etc.)

[Robert]

57 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

I quoted other texts besides this one, such as the cattle on a thousand hills.  It's really your position that the things we have are not gifts from God? (e.g. health, wealth, a sound mind, etc.)

God doesn't not work though our Capitalistic system to bring believers wealth. If He did He would be working with fallen Lucifer because "everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world."  All worldly systems, especially ours, is based on self-seeking and self-love.

 

 

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

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Me: I quoted other texts besides this one, such as the cattle on a thousand hills.  It's really your position that the things we have are not gifts from God? (e.g. health, wealth, a sound mind, etc.)

Robert: God doesn't not work though our Capitalistic system to bring believers wealth. If He did He would be working with fallen Lucifer because "everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world."  All worldly systems, especially ours, is based on self-seeking and self-love.

 

This wasn't my question.  Nobody was talking about what you brought up.  You can open a thread on Capitalism if you like.  My question asked if things like our health, soundness of mind, loved ones, and so forth, are gifts from God.

[LifeHiscost]

  

 

Those who have not moral power cannot stand in defense of the truth; they have not courage to say: “Unless such conversation ceases, I cannot remain in your presence. Jesus, the world’s Redeemer, is my Saviour; in Him is centered my hope of eternal life.” But this is the very way in which to silence them. If you argue with them, they will have arguments with which to meet you, and nothing you may say will touch them; but if you live for Christ, if you are firm in your allegiance to the God of heaven, you may do for them that which argument will fail to do, and convince them of the fallacy of their doctrines by the power of godliness. {MYP 88.3}

  

To no one in particular.   Shabbat shalom

 

God is love!~Jesus saves!  

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, Robert said:

"Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." (EGW)

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was ... done by ...by taking humanity into Himself" (EGW)

"Humanity died; divinity did not die." (EGW)

Our humanity, the one we all share with fallen Adam, died in Christ.  

There's another way to understand Mrs White's statement. 

Christ took human nature.  He took human nature into Himself, when He incarnated.  This is HOW he took humanity into Himself. 

He didn't take the entire human race  "into Himself".  He took human nature. 

Hebrews 2:9 "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone." 

Angels do not die, except in the "lake of fire".  Humans die, because they were created with a physical nature which was dependent upon continued access to the Tree of Life. 

Personally, I believe the LORD created humans with a physical nature, not an angelic spiritual nature, BECAUSE He wanted to spare them the suffering in the "lake of fire" that the evil angels will experience.  (I do NOT believe that LOST humans will be physically alive, or conscious when what remains of them is throw in.)  

He "tasted death" on behalf of every human being - for the benefit of everyone. 

Satan tortured Jesus right up to the moment He drew His last breath.  And Jesus overcame.  He did not bail.  He was "obedient unto death" striving against sin.  And He did this for the benefit of every human being.  This does NOT mean that every human being was saved at the moment Jesus died. No!  It meant that Jesus fulfilled the conditions to recover dominion of the earth from Satan. 

Adam and Eve LOST the dominion because of disobedience.  Christ recovers the dominion thru His obedience. 

With the dominion, Christ gets to decide which humans He will have in His dominion.  Hence Christ is judge.  God the Father has "given all authority to the Son". 

And Christ said clearly which sheep will be with Him.

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

[8thdaypriest]

22 hours ago, Robert said:

"Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." (EGW)

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was ... done by ...by taking humanity into Himself" (EGW)

"Humanity died; divinity did not die." (EGW)

Our humanity, the one we all share with fallen Adam, died in Christ.  

Philippians 2:5 "Let your attitude toward one another be governed by your being in union with the Messiah Yeshua: 6 Though he was in the form of God, he did not regard equality with God something to be possessed by force. 7 On the contrary, he emptied himself, in that he took the form of a slave by becoming like human beings are." (CJB)

When Jesus incarnated He "emptied himself" .  Of what - did He empty Himself?

He emptied Himself of divine power.  He left His divine power with His Father. 

This is how humanity died, but not divinity.  Jesus did not come as a divine being, with divine power.  He came as a man.  He was the "last Adam". 

He overcame - as a man.  It was only by overcoming as a man, that He would recover the dominion FOR mankind - the dominion that was "given to the sons of men". 

Psalm 115:16 "Heaven belongs to ADONAI, but the earth he has given to humankind." (CJB)

Genesis 1:26  Then God said, "Let us make humankind in our image, in the likeness of ourselves; and let them rule [have dominion] over the fish in the sea, the birds in the air, the animals, and over all the earth, and over every crawling creature that crawls on the earth." (CJB)

 

[8thdaypriest]

I agree with Wingnut, that the "second death" is a completely DIFFERENT TYPE of death.  The "first death" is physical death.  Several people in the Bible died that TYPE of death more than once.  The "second death" is the "lake of fire". 

Has anyone noticed that the Great White Throne Judgment comes AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle and Fire of God coming down. 

The "fire of God" comes DOWN on the attackers, but after the GWT Judgment, the lost are "thrown in" to the "lake of fire". 

Has anyone noticed the DIFFERENCE. 

[pnattmbtc]

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8thday: Satan tortured Jesus right up to the moment He drew His last breath.  And Jesus overcame.  He did not bail.  He was "obedient unto death" striving against sin.  And He did this for the benefit of every human being.  This does NOT mean that every human being was saved at the moment Jesus died. No!  It meant that Jesus fulfilled the conditions to recover dominion of the earth from Satan.

 Why would being tortured by Satan a condition to fulfill in order to recover dominion of the earth from Satan?