The gospel according to Christ and Paul

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

"Jesus a righteous and holy deity, took the death that we deserved"

"Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." (EGW)

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was ... done by ...by taking humanity into Himself" (EGW)

"Humanity died; divinity did not die." (EGW)

Our humanity, the one we all share with fallen Adam, died in Christ.  

[LifeHiscost]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

"Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." (EGW)

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was ... done by ...by taking humanity into Himself" (EGW)

"Humanity died; divinity did not die." (EGW)

Our humanity, the one we all share with fallen Adam, died in Christ.  

[Robert]

1 minute ago, LifeHiscost said:

Good, we agree...Thanks

[Robert]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "law" doesn't explain WHY the sinner dies. 

Gal 3:10 “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”....13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us..."

Matt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

The curse of the law is God abandonment - i.e., no hope of a resurrection - the 2nd death.  

[Robert]

Christ was not one man only among many men. He was not just an individual but, in Him, all humanity was gathered up. Christ was a corporate man. That’s why he is called a second Adam. He is a second mankind. And, thus, now, as at all time, mankind are, so to speak, organically united with Him. His acts are, in a true sense, our acts so far as we realize the union. His death is our death. His resurrection is our resurrection. [University Sermons, pp.225-226]

[Wingnut]

41 minutes ago, Robert said:

"Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." (EGW)

"By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man. This was ... done by ...by taking humanity into Himself" (EGW)

"Humanity died; divinity did not die." (EGW)

Our humanity, the one we all share with fallen Adam, died in Christ.  

This is just another instance of Ellen, and now Robert, being wrong.

Christ died.  One cannot divide Him into a part of Him died, and a part of Him did not die. 

Are we implying that Christ did not REALLY die for us?

Explain to me why it is impossible for Deity/God/Christ to have died for us, as the Bible continually states?

 

I notice how Robert trots out Ellen when it suits him, but ignores her when it suits him.

I am sure Ellen did not teach universal salvation, as proposed by Robert.

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Wingnut said:

Explain to me why it is impossible for Deity/God/Christ to have died for us, as the Bible continually states?

He alone possesses immortality 1 Tim 6:16

God is immortal....He can't die.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men...." Rom 5:12

We die because of sin.  Hence we are mortal.

Immortality and holiness are linked just as mortality and sin are linked.  If you insist that Deity can die then Deity must be polluted by sin.  

James 1:13 states that "God cannot be tempted by evil" and therefore sin has no hold on Him.  If He is sinless and holy He cannot die.  Deity cannot die, it's impossible.

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Wingnut said:

I notice how Robert trots out Ellen when it suits him, but ignores her when it suits him.

Nothing wrong with that.  BTW, you do the same.  You said Ellen White was wrong stating Deity didn't die.  

[Wingnut]

19 minutes ago, Robert said:

He alone possesses immortality 1 Tim 6:16

God is immortal....He can't die.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men...." Rom 5:12

We die because of sin.  Hence we are mortal.

Immortality and holiness are linked just as mortality and sin are linked.  If you insist that Deity can die then Deity must be polluted by sin.  

James 1:13 states that "God cannot be tempted by evil" and therefore sin has no hold on Him.  If He is sinless and holy He cannot die.  Deity cannot die, it's impossible.

 

1 Corinthians 15:3

For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

Isn't it sad how you are the first Christian to say Christ never REALLY/COMPLETELY died for us.  This is a new one on me.

The angels too have immortality, and the evil ones too can and will die.

Ps 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

 

And this is what the scripture you quoted really says.

1 Tim 6

16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

This is speaking of God the Father "who only hath immortality... whom no man hath seen".

So this scripture says the Father ONLY has immortality.  People have seen Christ.

 

 

 

 

[Wingnut]

29 minutes ago, Robert said:

Nothing wrong with that.  BTW, you do the same.  You said Ellen White was wrong stating Deity didn't die.  

I believe in sola scriptura.  Nothing else convinces me of anything.  

[Wingnut]

Your problem Robert is you use the Bible like it were a maths text book, and you were proving a geometry theorem.

 

God knoweth all things.  The future is part of all things.  God knows the future

The above is some of the horrible and false exegesis practiced by those who are led astray by their own clever theories.

 

[Wingnut]

And your other problem Robert is this.

You once knew and believed the simplicity of Christ that Christ came to save sinners who believe on Him.

But after many years, this becomes too boring.

You are one of a long line of "thinking" Christians I have met who funnily enough all end up believing exactly like you do, that somehow "we are born in the lifeboat" or all humanity has been saved by Christ - and the personal relationship with Christ as the only truly saving relationship, fades into the background, and your religion just becomes so much philosophy.

[Robert]

22 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

The angels too have immortality, and the evil ones too can and will die.

Fallen angels do not have immortality.  Again, if you would but pay attention, sin & mortality are linked just as holiness & immortality are linked.

Fallen angles aren't immortal, they just have a longer lifespan than humans. They are spirit beings.....

Does EGW agree with me? 

"That brow which was once so noble, I particularly noticed. His forehead commenced from his eyes to recede....His (Satan's) frame was large, but the flesh hung loosely about his hands and face." EW 152

In other words he is slowly aging.  He's mortal.

Why?  Because sin brought mortality to even Satan and his angels.

[Robert]

22 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Ps 82: 6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

http://www.gotquestions.org/you-are-gods.html

[Wingnut]

At least we agree angels can die.

 

[Robert]

27 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

So this scripture says the Father ONLY has immortality.  People have seen Christ.

ERV " God is the only one who never dies. "

Jesus is God....

What people saw was Jesus as man....He was born of woman, born under the law,  to deliver us from under law.

[Robert]

33 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

I believe in sola scriptura.  Nothing else convinces me of anything.  

Great....You are a sinner, and therefore you aren't immortal.  You aren't God ( Ye are gods), neither is "His Holiness"

[Robert]

28 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

The above is some of the horrible and false exegesis practiced by those who are led astray by their own clever theories.

Okay, you need to back off. Inferring that I am led astray is an attack.  I'm playing nice, maybe you should too?  If you disagree with my theology attack it...don't attack me, unless you want to be reported.

[Robert]

8 hours ago, Robert said:

Our humanity, the one we all share with fallen Adam, died in Christ.  

Keep in mind Christ is and has always been God....He is and has always been Divine.

But, at the incarnation, God the Father untied the Divinity of Christ to our corporate life from the womb of Mary.

God the Father sent His Son (, i.e., the Son of God) and thus Christ as a man was "born of a woman".

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman (Mary)...

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy scriptures, 3 the gospel, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh 4 and was declared to be the Son of God

Mary was a descendant of King David according to the flesh.  That means that as the son of man Christ was born according to the flesh.  Hence He was born mortal; He was born with the same fallen nature that we have to contend with.  Only in Christ's case He never sinned where all of us "have sinned and fall short" of God's goodness as expressed in the moral. law.

 

 

[Robert]

20 minutes ago, Robert said:

Gal 4:4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman (Mary)...

Jesus as the son of man was mortal.  Not because He sinned, but because He associated himself with our fallen life indwelt with iniquity (sin/our bent-to-self).

Hebrews 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: “Sacrifice and offering You did not desire, But a body You have prepared for Me (i.e., My Deity).

Therefore when the self-existing, pre-existing Christ came into this world, He said, Father, You have prepared for Me a body....

Now turn to Romans 6:6 

"Our old life was crucified with him (Christ as God) to put an end to sin in our bodies"

That body, that Christ's Deity assumed, was our human body from the womb of Mary. The product of Mary was the son of man.  The life that came from Mary is the same fallen life that we have by birth from our mothers.  That's because we all share the same fallen life that originated with Adam.

 Acts 17:26 "From one man (Adam) he (God) has made every nation of humanity"

So at the incarnation the Son of God (i.e., Christ's Deity) was united to our shared life from Adam in Mary's womb and thus became "the son of man".   

[Robert]

15 minutes ago, Robert said:

So at the incarnation the Son of God (i.e., Christ's Deity) was united to our shared life from Adam in Mary's womb and thus became "the son of man".   

As God, Christ handed the independent use of His Deity over to His Father.  Therefore He had no advantage over us.  Yet, there is a difference between Christ as the son  of man and the humanity He came to redeem.

We are born slaves to sin (self-love) where Christ as the second Adam was born spiritually alive.  He wasn't born a slave to sin.  His mind was under the full control of the Spirit of God.

For thirty something years He obeyed His Father's law.  Since our shared, fallen life was in Him, we too were made obedient. And on the cross, our old life from Adam died so that our humanity, indwelt with sin, might forever be done away with.

At the resurrection, Christ's Deity (which never died) was united to a new, glorified humanity, free from mortality and the curse.  So "in Christ" we stand perfect and unblemished before God and His holy law in the most holy place.

We are complete in Him.

This is fantastic good news, but to the legalistic among us, it's terrible news because they can't glory in their flesh (i.e., in their law performance).  

[Robert]

16 minutes ago, Robert said:

So "in Christ" we stand perfect and unblemished before God and His holy law in the most holy place.

"Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith... Heb 10:20-22

We can come boldly to God, in the Most Holy Place, "in Christ Jesus" in full assurance of faith.

We have assurance, folks.  We can safely say "I am saved" as long as our faith remains in our Great High Priest.  In Him we are complete.  

This is fantastic good news.  So when you fall (and we all sin) you aren't cast away.  You don't lose your salvation.  In order to lose your salvation you have to persistently and ultimately harden your heart against Christ. 

If you apostatize, Christ can no longer represent you blameless and holy in Himself.  At that point you go back under law and condemnation.  At that point the law places you in prison awaiting execution day (the judgment). And on judgment day you will have to take "the curse of the law", which is "the 2nd death".

[Robert]

On 1/6/2016 at 10:18 AM, Robert said:

Read:  http://www.jacksequeira.org/explaingospel5.htm

The In Christ Motif

While God sent Christ into the world to be the gospel, it was Paul whom God commissioned to explain it.

Romans 1:1: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God....

That is why the Pauline epistles comprises almost half of the New Testament.  In reading Paul, you will find that there is a key phrase that runs throughout his epistles.  If you were to take this phrase out, there would be very little left of Paul’s exposition of the gospel.  This recurring phrase, which is the central theme of Paul’s theology, is the expression “in Christ” or “in Christ Jesus.”  This phrase is sometimes expressed by other similar phrases, such as:  “in Him,” or “by Him” or “through Him,” or “in the Beloved,” or “together with Him,” etc.  These are all synonymous terms implying the “in Christ” motif or idea....

The expression “in Christ,” however, is a rather difficult phrase to understand.  Just as, “you must be born again” was mind boggling to Nicodemus; so likewise, the concept of “in Christ” is a very difficult idea for us to understand.  How can I, as an individual, be in someone else?  Even harder to understand is, how can I, born in the twentieth century, be in Christ who lived almost 2,000 years ago?  This makes absolutely no sense to our way of thinking.

But what does Scripture mean when it tells us that we were together with Christ in His birth, life, death, burial, and resurrection, and now, are sitting with Him in heavenly places?

Ephesians 2:4-6: But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved.  And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus....

Because we cannot fathom these facts we tend to ignore or skim over them.  Yet the whole understanding of the everlasting gospel hinges on our understanding the significance of these two vital words:  “in Christ.”....

[Wingnut]

Let's do the maths.

Father only hath immortality.

Christ died for sinners, not pretended to or half of Him died.

And angels can die.

That's about all there is to it.

So everything is sustained by the Father.

And "in Christ" has never posed a problem.  The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, directed by Christ to us.  So we are part of the body of Christ and empowered by Christ, and will receive eternal life through Christ.  Same Gospel Christ preached and Paul preached.

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, Wingnut said:

Father only hath immortality. 

No, God (Deity) has immortality.  This would be Father, Son and Holy Spirit.  

Quote

Christ died for sinners, not pretended to or half of Him died.

Christ the son of man, not Christ the Son of God.  Getting a bit confused here....