The gospel according to Christ and Paul

[Robert]

Just now, Robert said:

The gospel is the good news of how Christ saved fallen humanity from under the curse to under grace.  The gospel is therefore the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as our corporate head, i.e., the 2nd Adam.

Now please explain to me, using the words of Christ as recorded in the gospels, how Christ saved me from under law to under grace!

[pnattmbtc]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

I've just quoted a few...there's more.

I guess I'm not getting through to you.

The gospel is the good news of how Christ saved fallen humanity from under the curse to under grace.  The gospel is therefore the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ as our corporate head, i.e., the 2nd Adam.

The gospel is not what Christ does in you.  That's the fruits of the gospel or the fruits of resting in Him by faith.

 

 

It's not a question of your not getting through to me, but I disagree with your starting point.

Let's take a look at what Paul said in regards to the gospel:

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15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

 

This is what Paul declared was the gospel.  Did not Christ preach the same thing?

[pnattmbtc]

6 minutes ago, Robert said:

Now please explain to me, using the words of Christ as recorded in the gospels, how Christ saved me from under law to under grace!

That's not what Paul said the gospel was.  Take a look at 1 Cor. 15.

[pnattmbtc]

Did you read what I wrote about paradigms?

[Robert]

1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said:

That's not what Paul said the gospel was.  Take a look at 1 Cor. 15.

Here's question Pastor Jack asks:

"How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one."

The answer is the gospel.

[Robert]

10 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said:

 Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Sorry, the sinless can't die for the guilty.  God's law demands the death of sinner.  IF Christ died, then He is a sinner because no law can condemn a innocent man in place the guilty.  Therefore what you present, pnattmbtc, is an unethical gospel.  This is not the everlasting gospel we are to present to the world.

Again: "How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one."

[pnattmbtc]

9 minutes ago, Robert said:

Here's question Pastor Jack asks:

"How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one."

The answer is the gospel.

This isn't the question which Paul was addressing.  The whole starting point is wrong.  This was a concern of Luther, not Paul.

[pnattmbtc]

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Sorry, the sinless can't die for the guilty.  

??? I quoted Paul in 1 Cor. 15.  Why would this warrant the response, "Sorry, the sinless can't die for the guilty?" 

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God's law demands the death of sinner.

God's law is simply an expression of God's own will.  Why would God demand the death of a sinner?  What good would that do?

Herein is an extremely important difference in how you view things (or, at least, how I perceive you view things) and how I view them.  I view the death of the sinner not as something which God demands, as something which God imposes upon the transgressor as a punishment, but as a natural consequence.  Sin results in death because it involves the sinner separating Himself from God, who alone is the source of life.  Sin is predicated upon the principle of living for self, which is not a principle which can result in life, but only death.  This is the problem which God must solve!  It's not a legal problem, but a real problem.

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IF Christ died, then He is a sinner because no law can condemn a innocent man in place the guilty.  Therefore what you present, pnattmbtc, is an unethical gospel.  This is not the everlasting gospel we are to present to the world.

Again: "How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one."

 

This is all Anselm and Calvin.  Nobody thought this way in the time of Paul.  Not one of Paul's readers would have understand Paul to be making this argument.

[Robert]

8 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

This isn't the question which Paul was addressing.  The whole starting point is wrong.  This was a concern of Luther, not Paul.

He address this in many verses....You can't answer it, can you?

 

[Robert]

7 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

God's law is simply an expression of God's own will.  Why would God demand the death of a sinner?  What good would that do?

Because if God took sinners to heaven, heaven would become a living hell.  Greed and corruption, i.e., human nature, would bring war, disease, etc.  Heaven would look like this polluted world.

The sinner must die.....

Don't believe me?

 For the law brings wrath Rom 4:15

"the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall by them live”....but Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them. Gal 3:12,10

“All these curses shall come upon you and pursue you and overtake you till you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that he commanded you. Deut 28:45

The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself....24 “But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, shall he live? All the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered; because of the unfaithfulness of which he is guilty and the sin which he has committed, because of them he shall die. Ez 18:20,24

 

 

[Robert]

 “Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. {Ellen White RH, May 7, 1901 par. 9}

[Robert]

8 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

Nobody thought this way in the time of Paul.  Not one of Paul's readers would have understand Paul to be making this argument.

Wow, you seem to know exactly what folks were thinking about 2000 year ago.

Pnattmbtc, try to stay with the context.  How can Christ forgive sinners when His own law condemns them to eternal death?

Most Christian religions answer this by saying that Jesus nailed the law to the cross. He did away with His law.

Well, why then did Christ take the cruse of the law if He did away with His law?

He could have simply did away with His law, that justly condemns the fallen race, skipped the cross and forgave everyone of their sins.  Then what?

 We have a bunch of forgiven sinners who are still mortal and still wicked.  Do you take them to heaven?  No!  Hmmm, we have a problem Huston. 

[Robert]

8 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

This is what Paul declared was the gospel.  Did not Christ preach the same thing?

Yes, both say that Christ died for our sins, but how?  That's where Paul comes in.

See, the law demands the sinners death.  How can Christ, who is sinless...who is Deity, take the punishment for something He didn't do?

Clearly the law demands the death of the sinner to be satisfied.  

"The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself." Ez 18:20

So you can't just credit righteousness from a sinless person to a sinner.  That's unethical and no law will allow it.

[Robert]

 what the gospel is not.

• It is not, "Have your best life now"—as a popular TV preacher proclaims.
• It is not, "Jesus came to be your best friend."
• It is not sacramental.
• It is not placing one's trust in the church, but rather in Christ's finished work on the cross.
• It is not something that we must do.
• Further, it is not the so-called social gospel. (The social gospel is a response by certain liberal Christians who began to doubt the Bible and its miracles, including the bodily resurrection of Christ. Left with no gospel at all, these professing Christians turned to social action in society as their focus and redemption.) 
• Nor is the gospel the whole of the New Testament, which some Christians who tend toward legalism think.

[Wingnut]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

 what the gospel is not.

• It is not, "Have your best life now"—as a popular TV preacher proclaims.
• It is not, "Jesus came to be your best friend."
• It is not sacramental.
• It is not placing one's trust in the church, but rather in Christ's finished work on the cross.
• It is not something that we must do.
• Further, it is not the so-called social gospel. (The social gospel is a response by certain liberal Christians who began to doubt the Bible and its miracles, including the bodily resurrection of Christ. Left with no gospel at all, these professing Christians turned to social action in society as their focus and redemption.) 
• Nor is the gospel the whole of the New Testament, which some Christians who tend toward legalism think.

Here is another thing which the Gospel is not...

It is not what Robert wants it to be.

On another thread you wrote..."

"What Christ does in you is not the gospel.  It's sanctification, the fruits of accepting the gospel.

The gospel is what Christ did to save the fallen race.  If you call what He does in you the gospel, then the gospel becomes Christ's works plus your works, which is nothing more than subtle legalism."

You remind me of an SDA sermon I heard 2 months back where the visiting preacher preached on "It is Christ plus nothing".

He went on to list all the faults of Noah (drunk), Lot (drunk + sex), David (murder + adultery) etc. a real opposite of the faith chapter, basically saying, "See they all screwed up, so it is Christ plus nothing which saves us".  And folks sat there nodding in agreement as if this was not pure poison from Satan.

I go to church to be instructed in how to be a better Christian, not a worse one.

I want to hear about the deeds of overcoming, not of being overcome.

 

Christ, like Paul said not to call Him "Lord" if you are not going to obey Him as Lord.  

Thus your saying that our works are irrelevant to the Gospel, and labelling them "legalism" I regard as pure snake oil.

Virtually the first words of Jesus were recorded in Mark 1...

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,

15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

In His opening sentence there are two verbs and two obligations on our part.  Yet you say, that what we do is irrelevant to the Gospel.  Christ's opening sentence proves you utterly wrong.

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Wingnut said:

I go to church to be instructed in how to be a better Christian, not a worse one. I want to hear about the deeds of overcoming, not of being overcome.

Oh, I see, at the end of the day you want credit for good behavior.  Christ's finished work isn't good enough and therefore you want to add to His finished work.

Well, I can help you.  

Here's what spirit of God's law requires if you are to live above all sin, but before I give this quote let me remind you that the law of God doesn't hand out credit for good behavior in order to make up for your bad behavior.  It's all or nothing.  You either keep His law perfectly, or you must die.  The law of God is not in the forgiveness business.  It demands perfect, unblemished performance.  If you can't do that then you had better rest in Christ's finished work. Then you can experience His agape in your life, but in no way is this  meritorious.

Now here's what the spirit of God's law requires if you are to live above all sin:

"You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself"

BTW, Ellen White sheds light on this command:

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law."

Self-love (iniquity) is our problem.  It's why the law points out we are transgressors.

SO the law of God demands that you take your self-love and instead of loving self, love your neighbors instead.

What does the finished product look like?

1 Cor 10:24 "Let no man seek his own (wealth), but every man another's wealth."

You see "agape" (God's love) is opposite our "self-love".  What we have as sinners is really a u-turn agape.  It's agape, but bent-back-to-self.  

Agape, says Paul, "is not self-seeking" (see 1 Cor 13:5 NIV).

So instead of building your own wealth (which is based on self-love and self-seeking) you are to live for your neighbors.  After all the church in Acts did this for a season (see Acts 4:32-35).

That's why Christ said: "If you want to be perfect, sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and come and follow Me."  That's perfection.

If you can't do this, well, you better accept Christ's deliverance of you from under the law.  We call that the gospel.

You can't be under grace (Christ's finished work) and at the same time be under law.  It's one or the other, but not both. 

[Robert]

Now, let's get back to the gospel instead of trying to hijack it to a works thread.

[Wingnut]

55 minutes ago, Robert said:

Now, let's get back to the gospel instead of trying to hijack it to a works thread.

You will not be getting back to "THE Gospel" but getting back to the Gospel according to Robert,  which is just so much Bad News in the end.

 

Malachi 3:6 For I am the Lord, I change not; 

Let us see whether Old Covenant Israel needed to do anything.

What about the 613 laws which they agreed to do?

When they forsook God, God forsook them, and sent them into captivity and scattered them to all nations.

 

Would God expect a higher or lower standard of us under the New Covenant?

Are we not entered into a covenant to be His people?  Are there not 1050 commands in the NT?

At the start, are we not told to repent and believe the Gospel?

 

Imagine ancient Israel claiming that all we have to do is believe there is a God and we are His special people, and have to do nothing else.  Oh, that is exactly what they did do and got rejected for not keeping up their end of the covenant.

 

Do yourself a favour and turn to the front of the New Testament and read those two words.  “New Testament” means “New Covenant”.  And a covenant is I will be your God, and you will be my people.  And being God’s people has always entailed living by God’s standard, which includes forsaking all other Gods and Gospels.

 

[pnattmbtc]

5 hours ago, Robert said:

He address this in many verses....You can't answer it, can you?

 

? I'm saying your whole starting point is wrong.  How could address something which doesn't exist?  What I pointed out is that none of Paul's hearers, nor would Paul himself, understood the issues the way Luther did.  The whole forensic paradigm you are operating from was foreign to Paul.  It came about by means of Anselm, and later developed Calvin.

[pnattmbtc]

13 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

God's law is simply an expression of God's own will.  Why would God demand the death of a sinner?  What good would that do?

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Because if God took sinners to heaven, heaven would become a living hell.  Greed and corruption, i.e., human nature, would bring war, disease, etc.  Heaven would look like this polluted world.

Yes! This is the problem.

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The sinner must die.....

If you mean "die to self", yes, that would address the problem.  If you mean die literally, of course, that wouldn't help, unless the sinner was resurrected.

A simpler way of saying this is the sinner must be converted.  This is what Christ so eloquently explained in John 3:14-16; one must be born again.

[pnattmbtc]

5 hours ago, Robert said:

 “Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come. He declares just as decidedly that those who do not obey His requirements shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on them. By lips that never lie the obedient are blessed, and the disobedient are pronounced guilty. {Ellen White RH, May 7, 1901 par. 9}

What does she means when she speaks of obedience to the law in the context of justification by faith?

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The law requires righteousness,--a righteous life, a perfect character; and this man has not to give. He cannot meet the claims of God's holy law. But Christ, coming to the earth as man, lived a holy life, and developed a perfect character. These He offers as a free gift to all who will receive them. His life stands for the life of men. Thus they have remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God. More than this, Christ imbues men with the attributes of God. He builds up the human character after the similitude of the divine character, a goodly fabric of spiritual strength and beauty. Thus the very righteousness of the law is fulfilled in the believer in Christ. God can "be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus." Rom. 3:26. (DA 762)

 

[pnattmbtc]

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Me: Nobody thought this way in the time of Paul.  Not one of Paul's readers would have understand Paul to be making this argument.

Robert:Wow, you seem to know exactly what folks were thinking about 2000 year ago.

 

Not by personal experience!  But I've studied these things.  Lots and lots have been written about Paul.

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Pnattmbtc, try to stay with the context.  How can Christ forgive sinners when His own law condemns them to eternal death?

If someone commits a sin against you, you can forgive them.  Christ forgave the publican in Mark 2(?; maybe 1; taken down from the roof).  How did He do this.  He just did it!

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Most Christian religions answer this by saying that Jesus nailed the law to the cross. He did away with His law.

This isn't true.  What your trying to say is actually very much a minority position.  The way you are actually saying is a position that no one holds.

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Well, why then did Christ take the cruse of the law if He did away with His law?

He could have simply did away with His law, that justly condemns the fallen race, skipped the cross and forgave everyone of their sins.  Then what?

 We have a bunch of forgiven sinners who are still mortal and still wicked.  Do you take them to heaven?  No!  Hmmm, we have a problem Huston. 

 

The sinners need to be born again.  John 3:14-16.

[pnattmbtc]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Oh, I see, at the end of the day you want credit for good behavior.  Christ's finished work isn't good enough and therefore you want to add to His finished work.

Well, I can help you.  

Here's what spirit of God's law requires if you are to live above all sin, but before I give this quote let me remind you that the law of God doesn't hand out credit for good behavior in order to make up for your bad behavior.  It's all or nothing.  You either keep His law perfectly, or you must die.  The law of God is not in the forgiveness business.  It demands perfect, unblemished performance.  If you can't do that then you had better rest in Christ's finished work. Then you can experience His agape in your life, but in no way is this  meritorious.

Now here's what the spirit of God's law requires if you are to live above all sin:

"You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself"

BTW, Ellen White sheds light on this command:

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law."

Self-love (iniquity) is our problem.  It's why the law points out we are transgressors.

SO the law of God demands that you take your self-love and instead of loving self, love your neighbors instead.

What does the finished product look like?

1 Cor 10:24 "Let no man seek his own (wealth), but every man another's wealth."

You see "agape" (God's love) is opposite our "self-love".  What we have as sinners is really a u-turn agape.  It's agape, but bent-back-to-self.  

Agape, says Paul, "is not self-seeking" (see 1 Cor 13:5 NIV).

So instead of building your own wealth (which is based on self-love and self-seeking) you are to live for your neighbors.  After all the church in Acts did this for a season (see Acts 4:32-35).

That's why Christ said: "If you want to be perfect, sell everything you have and give it to the poor, and come and follow Me."  That's perfection.

If you can't do this, well, you better accept Christ's deliverance of you from under the law.  We call that the gospel.

You can't be under grace (Christ's finished work) and at the same time be under law.  It's one or the other, but not both. 

You keep repeating this argument.  It's not a very good one.

If we are converted, yes, we should love God with all our heart and soul and mind and strength, and our neighbor as ourself.  The *form* that this takes place will vary from person to person.  For example, there were those, such as the rich, young, ruler, who Jesus asked to sell all he had and come follow him.  He also did this with Matthew (or, rather, just follow him; Matthew was rich, but walked away from his profession to follow Christ).

However, there were others, whom Christ had healed, who he said to NOT follow him, but stay where they were.

If we are Christ's then all we are and have, including our wallets (and time), will be at His disposal.  But how we spend our time, and money, will not be the same for every person.  It's ludicrous to make an argument because some person did X, if you don't do X, then you aren't being obedient, so obedience is impossible.

[8thdaypriest]

On 1/6/2016 at 9:26 AM, Robert said:

You know, you keep repeating this, but you never give any proof using the Scriptures.

Robert, you want Jesus to say "This is the Gospel", before actually preaching it, so you could identify what was 'the gospel" and what was not, from all the things Jesus said. 

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Robert said:

Again: "How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]? Because no law will allow an innocent person to die for the crime of a guilty one."

Jesus was "made to be sin".