The Lie Many Honestly Believed As Truth

[Samie]

What is it?

 

It is the lie that people are born spiritually dead in sin.

 

If indeed people are born spiritually dead in sin, then they are born NOT in Christ, because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). And to be NOT in Christ is to be apart from Christ. And apart from Christ, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5): he cannot place his faith in Christ; he cannot accept His gift of salvation; he cannot repent and overcome evil with good. IOW, he is doomed.

 

But Scriptures teach otherwise.

 

Adam could have, by his own death that day he sinned, paid the penalty for his sin, but that would be his eternal end. He could have paid for his sin God hates, but God would have eternally lost the sinner He loves. So right on that same day Adam fell into sin, God implemented the plan of redemption He devised before the foundation of the world (2 Tim 1:8-10). God's plan made it possible for man to not only pay for the penalty of his own sin, but also at the same time, give him another shot at eternal life. That plan found fulfillment in the life, death and resurrection of our Lord. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world!!! Rev 13:8

 

God through Christ fashioned humanity into the Body of Christ on the cross thereby creating the One New Man: Christ the Head, humanity (Jews and Gentiles) the Body (Eph 2:11-19). When the Head died, the Body died with Him (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9); when the Head resurrected, the Body was made alive TOGETHER with Him (Eph 2: 4-6; Col 2:13), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3).

 

Now that people are alive, God commands all to repent (Acts 17:30) and given faith (Rom 12:3) so they can please God (Heb 11:6) and gain victory over the world (1 John 5:4), they have His Power (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ on His throne, Who Himself is an overcomer.

 

KJV Revelation 3:21   To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

 

Scriptures warn against persistence in believing a lie.

 

NKJ 2 Thessalonians 2:10-11  . . . because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie

 

Knowing the truth yet persisting to believe a lie is siding with the father of lies. John 8:44

[Samie]

1. The wisest person said God made people upright or righteous, but they sought out many inventions (Eccl 7:29).

2. The Father sent Jesus into this world in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3).

3. Jesus was made in the LIKENESS of men (Phil 2:7).

Jesus was made in all things like unto His brethren, brethren - plural, not simply singular like Adam:

NKJ Hebrews 2:17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

That's a generic application. The pattern is His brethren. The resulting copy is Jesus. As copied from the pattern, the copy is born not spiritually dead in sin. Therefore, the pattern is not born spiritually dead in sin.

[Samie]

I am anxious how many among my SDA brethren are honestly believing people are born spiritually dead in sin.

And no one has yet come up with that one single verse that people are born spiritually dead in sin. Just like the missing verse that the sanctity of the 7th day Sabbath had been transferred to the 1st day of the week.

[JoeMo]

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51.5)

[Samie]

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

God told Jeremiah he was sanctified in the womb before he was born (Jer 1:5). Apply that to David and we will have David shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin, but born already sanctified.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

[LifeHiscost]

5 For I was born a sinner--yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.....Psalms 51 NLT

It can be confusing but taking it from personal experience, I have never found a moment of time that this reasoning wasn't necessary, and as a little child I didn't have sense enough to exercise that reasoning, not until 28 years later when being born again.

…6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”… John 3

7Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8Draw near to God, and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.… James 4

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[Samie]

The Bible defines Sin in at least FOUR (4) different ways:

1. Transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

2. Whatever not of faith. Rom 14:23

3. Not doing what is good when opportunity comes. James 4:17

4. All unrighteousness. 1 John 5:17

I don't think the newborn child could be held accountable for any of the above.

The wisest man said that God made men righteous but they devised many inventions (Eccl 7:29). So how is a newborn a sinner when God made him righteous?

[LifeHiscost]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

The Bible defines Sin in at least FOUR (4) different ways:

1. Transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

2. Whatever not of faith. Rom 14:23

3. Not doing what is good when opportunity comes. James 4:17

4. All unrighteousness. 1 John 5:17

I don't think the newborn child could be held accountable for any of the above.

The wisest man said that God made men righteous but they devised many inventions (Eccl 7:29). So how is a newborn a sinner when God made him righteous?

I think this answers that concern adequately.

…29"In those days they will not say again, 'The fathers have eaten sour grapes, And the children's teeth are set on edge.' 30"But everyone will die for his own iniquity; each man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge. 31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

…Jeremiah 31

…11Let the unrighteous continue to be unrighteous, and the vile continue to be vile; let the righteous continue to practice righteousness, and the holy continue to be holy.” 12“Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each person according to what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”…

Revelation 22

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith.....Hebrews 12

12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” ...Acts 4

Since all our righteousness is as filthy rags, even were a child born without sin, they still must be born again. We have this promise we can cling to if we're so inclined.

But the LORD says, "The captives of warriors will be released, and the plunder of tyrants will be retrieved. For I will fight those who fight you, and I will save your children.
Isaiah 49

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!       

[Samie]

20 hours ago, LifeHiscost said:

5 For I was born a sinner--yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.....Psalms 51 NLT

It can be confusing but taking it from personal experience, I have never found a moment of time that this reasoning wasn't necessary, and as a little child I didn't have sense enough to exercise that reasoning, not until 28 years later when being born again.

The Bible says we were born again when Jesus rose from the grave (1 Pet 1:3). Hence, people are physically born already born again, that is, already made spiritually alive. Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6.

[JoeMo]

19 hours ago, Samie said:

I don't think the newborn child could be held accountable for any of the above.

There are many sins (done out of ignorance or done unconsciously) that even adults can't be held accountable for - but they're still sins - by one or more of the definitions Samie has provided.  That's why we need a Savior.  And God so loved the world that He provided One for those who would only believe (which also means trust).

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

The Bible says we were born again when Jesus rose from the grave (1 Pet 1:3). Hence, people are physically born already born again, that is, already made spiritually alive. Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6.

The "we" here is our new creation (i.e., new creature) in Christ Jesus.  This is not referring to us as children of fallen Adam.  It is referring to our glorified humanity that Christ took to heaven in Himself after the resurrection.

[Robert]

19 hours ago, Samie said:

I don't think the newborn child could be held accountable for any of the above.

Two verses:

Rom 5:18 "Through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men."

"All men" were condemned because all share Adam's fallen life indwelt by iniquity, but condemnation isn't the same as guilt.  Guilt or transgression is the result of knowing the law either explicitly or through one's conscience.

Rom 5:13 "sin is not imputed when there is no law"

Newborns are born in a state of grace  They are ignorant of the law.  When they reach the age of accountability then they must make a decision for or against Christ.  To reject Christ is to remain under the law as transgressors. To accept  Christ is to retain one's justification now received by faith. 

[Samie]

26 minutes ago, Robert said:

The "we" here is our new creation (i.e., new creature) in Christ Jesus.  This is not referring to us as children of fallen Adam.  It is referring to our glorified humanity that Christ took to heaven in Himself after the resurrection.

The One New Man was created on the cross: Christ the Head, Humanity (Jews & Gentiles) the Body. The Body is the "we". It's the "we" that died with Him; it's the "we" that was made alive TOGETHER with Him. See the OP.

[Samie]

21 minutes ago, Robert said:

"All men" were condemned because all share Adam's fallen life indwelt by iniquity, but condemnation isn't the same as guilt.  Guilt or transgression is the result of knowing the law either explicitly or through one's conscience.

Did Christ share Adam's fallen life indwelt by iniquity? I say No.

And if No, then, we didn't share it either, as explained here

[LifeHiscost]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

The Bible says we were born again when Jesus rose from the grave (1 Pet 1:3). Hence, people are physically born already born again, that is, already made spiritually alive. Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6.

If it were as you say, what would be made of this Word below?

5You welcome those who gladly do good, who follow godly ways. But you have been very angry with us, for we are not godly. We are constant sinners; how can people like us be saved?

6We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

7Yet no one calls on your name or pleads with you for mercy. Therefore, you have turned away from us and turned us over to our sins.....Isaiah 64

And why would Jesus see a need to make this appeal through the person of Nicodemus?

5Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.^b 6Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.^c 7So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’ .....John 3

Why would He say "You must be", as something to be accomplished in Nicodemas' future, if it had already occurred in his past.

And again, I have the personal testimony in my own experience, Jesus takes responsibility for accomplishing righteous deeds in and through me by His Holy Spirit. The before and after of this promise below, is incontrovertible evidence, by His grace.

28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.… Matthew 11

Why would Jesus ask me to come, if that were already an accomplished fact at birth?

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

If it were as you say, what would be made of this Word below?

5You welcome those who gladly do good, who follow godly ways. But you have been very angry with us, for we are not godly. We are constant sinners; how can people like us be saved?

6We are all infected and impure with sin. When we display our righteous deeds, they are nothing but filthy rags. Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall, and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

7Yet no one calls on your name or pleads with you for mercy. Therefore, you have turned away from us and turned us over to our sins.....Isaiah 64

And why would Jesus see a need to make this appeal through the person of Nicodemus?

5Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit.^b 6Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life.^c 7So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’ .....John 3

Why would He say "You must be", as something to be accomplished in Nicodemas' future, if it had already occurred in his past.

And again, I have the personal testimony in my own experience, Jesus takes responsibility for accomplishing righteous deeds in and through me by His Holy Spirit. The before and after of this promise below, is incontrovertible evidence, by His grace.

28Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.… Matthew 11

Why would Jesus ask me to come, if that were already an accomplished fact at birth?

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

To be born again is to be spiritually made alive TOGETHER with Christ. That is we were made part of His Body. But God does not overrule our freewill. Attached to Him Who is our Strength for overcoming evil, we can decide whether to be overcome of evil or overcome it with good.

If in the first place people are born NOT in Christ, then they can do NOTHING, as Christ Himself EXPLICITLY said. Praise God, He empowered us by fashioning us into the Body of His Son on the cross. See the OP.

[LifeHiscost]

As I said, some things are hard to be understood.

 

…15Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. 16He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17Therefore, beloved, since you already know these things, be on your guard not to be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure standing.… 2 Peter 3

 

  

Peter says: Of this salvation “the prophets have inquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister.” 1 Peter 1:10-12, italics supplied. What a lesson to the people of God in the Christian age! Those holy men of God “inquired and searched diligently” concerning revelations given for generations yet unborn. What a rebuke to the world-loving indifference which is content to declare that the prophecies cannot be understood. {HF 214.3}

Not infrequently the minds of even God’s servants are so blinded by tradition and false teaching that they only partially grasp the things revealed in His Word. The disciples of Christ, even when the Saviour was with them, had the popular conception of the Messiah as a temporal prince who was to exalt Israel to universal empire. They could not understand His words foretelling His suffering and death. {HF 215.1}

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Did Christ share Adam's fallen life indwelt by iniquity? I say No.

The divinity of Christ (i.e, Christ as God) assumed our corporate, fallen life indwelt by iniquity from the womb of Mary and therefore became the son of man.

[LifeHiscost]

14Therefore, since we have such a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold firmly to what we profess. 15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who was tempted in every way that we are, yet was without sin. ....Hebrews 4

Jesus took our penalty for the sins we committed. If He had sinned He would have had to die for His own sin, and we would have been lost

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

The divinity of Christ (i.e, Christ as God) assumed our corporate, fallen life indwelt by iniquity from the womb of Mary and therefore became the son of man.

What exactly do you mean?

When Jesus came to earth sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3), made in the LIKENESS of men (Phil 2:7), made in all things like unto His brethren (Heb 2:17), was he

1. able to sin, able to not sin, or 2. able to sin, not able to not sin

My answer is #1. He came with a nature: able to sin, able to not sin; and He chose: to not sin (1 Pet 2:22).

From your statement above, I guess your choice is #2. Did I understand you correctly?

[Robert]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

What exactly do you mean?

When Jesus came to earth sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh (Rom 8:3),....

According to The International Critical Commentary (Romans, Vol. 1; 1982 edition), Paul used the word “likeness” in Romans 8:3 to emphasize the fact that “the Son of God was not, in being sent by His Father, changed into a man, but rather assumed human nature while still remaining Himself.....Paul’s thought to be that the Son of God assumed the selfsame fallen human nature that is ours, but that in His case that fallen human nature was never the whole of Him — He never ceased to be the eternal Son of God

[Samie]

So,

1. Was He able to sin and able to not sin? Or,

2. Was He able to sin and NOT able to not sin?

Your direct response by simply choosing one of the two will make me correctly understand your position. Please?

[Samie]

or perhaps, 3. Not able to sin. Which of the 3?

[Robert]

11 hours ago, Samie said:

So,

1. Was He able to sin and able to not sin? Or,

2. Was He able to sin and NOT able to not sin?

Your direct response by simply choosing one of the two will make me correctly understand your position. Please?

At the incarnation Christ's Deity was united to our fallen humanity, indwelt by our bent (iniquity), in the womb of Mary.  Therefore Christ as the son of man was tempted as we are, yet without sin.  Could He have sinned?  Yes.  Did He?  No!  

You see unlike us Christ was born spiritually alive where we were born spiritually dead in trespasses.  Christ was born with God's Spirit in control of His mind.  Therefore He was never a slave to sin.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, Robert said:

At the incarnation Christ's Deity was united to our fallen humanity, indwelt by our bent (iniquity), in the womb of Mary.  Therefore Christ as the son of man was tempted as we are, yet without sin.  Could He have sinned?  Yes.  Did He?  No!  

You see unlike us Christ was born spiritually alive where we were born spiritually dead in trespasses.  Christ was born with God's Spirit in control of His mind.  Therefore He was never a slave to sin.

OK, Thanks. I now understand where you're coming from.

You believe Christ was born spiritually alive. I agree. That He was born spiritually alive tells us that people were also born spiritually alive as explained here.