The Lie Many Honestly Believed As Truth

[Samie]

Jesus was sent in the LIKENESS of sinful flesh, made in the LIKENESS of men, and in ALL things made LIKE unto His brethren. IOW, He is an exact copy - a clone - of His brethren.

Again, the PATTERN is His brethren; He is the COPY from the PATTERN. As the PATTERN, so is the COPY.

The COPY was born spiritually alive, THEREFORE, the PATTERN was born spiritually alive.

Being the Savior of the PATTERN, the COPY did not sin.

[Robert]

32 minutes ago, Samie said:

OK, Thanks. I now understand where you're coming from.

You believe Christ was born spiritually alive. I agree. That He was born spiritually alive tells us that people were also born spiritually alive as explained here.

No, we are born spiritually dead....We are born slaves to our love of self.

But, Christ in His doing and dying has justified unto life all those born into this world.  When they reach the age of accountability then they must make a choice for or against Christ.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

No, we are born spiritually dead....We are born slaves to our love of self.

But, Christ in His doing and dying has justified unto life all those born into this world.  When they reach the age of accountability then they must make a choice for or against Christ.

We are the PATTERN; He is the COPY from the PATTERN. If the PATTERN was born spiritually dead in sin, then the COPY must necessarily be born spiritually dead in sin. BUT, since the COPY as copied from the PATTERN, was born spiritually alive, THEN, the PATTERN must be born spiritually alive.

[Samie]

If the PATTERN was born spiritually dead in sin, THEN, he was born APART from Christ. And apart from Him, Christ said man can do NOTHING: he cannot believe, cannot repent. But the fact that people can now believe and repent proves that people are born spiritually alive, born In Christ. How? God through Christ, fashioned them into the Body of His Son on the cross.

[Samie]

14 minutes ago, Samie said:

If the PATTERN was born spiritually dead in sin, THEN, he was born APART from Christ. And apart from Him, Christ said man can do NOTHING: he cannot believe, cannot repent. But the fact that people can now believe and repent proves that people are born spiritually alive, born In Christ. How? God through Christ, fashioned them into the Body of His Son on the cross.

If the PATTERN was born In Christ because of what God through Christ did FOR them on the cross, THEN God gets the credit.  But if the PATTERN is In Christ because he believed, THEN man gets the credit. And that's salvation by works.

[Robert]

55 minutes ago, Samie said:

We are the PATTERN; He is the COPY from the PATTERN. If the PATTERN was born spiritually dead in sin, then the COPY must necessarily be born spiritually dead in sin. BUT, since the COPY as copied from the PATTERN, was born spiritually alive, THEN, the PATTERN must be born spiritually alive.

"In Christ" our corporate humanity was made spiritually alive and thus for thirty something years Christ obeyed perfectly.  Hence we were made righteous in Him.  

And then on the cross "our old self was crucified with Him".  Therefore "in Christ" our corporate humanity died the justice that God's law required.

Sunday morning God raised up Christ with a glorified, immortal corporate humanity.  That corporate humanity was taken to heaven where Christ represents believers before God and His holy law complete in Himself. 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

"In Christ" our corporate humanity was made spiritually alive and thus for thirty something years Christ obeyed perfectly.  Hence we were made righteous in Him.  

And then on the cross "our old self was crucified with Him".  Therefore "in Christ" our corporate humanity died the justice that God's law required.

Sunday morning God raised up Christ with a glorified, immortal corporate humanity.  That corporate humanity was taken to heaven where Christ represents believers before God and His holy law complete in Himself. 

It was on the cross where the One New Man was created: Christ the Head, Humanity (Jews & Gentiles) the Body. When the Head died, the Body died; when the Head resurrected, the Body resurrected, made alive TOGETHER with Him, early Saturday morning.

[Robert]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

It was on the cross where the One New Man was created: Christ the Head, Humanity (Jews & Gentiles) the Body. When the Head died, the Body died; when the Head resurrected, the Body resurrected, made alive TOGETHER with Him, early Saturday morning.

That's not what Paul teaches, Samie....

[Samie]

55 minutes ago, Robert said:

That's not what Paul teaches, Samie....

I have shown verses written by the apostle Paul, by Peter, and even what Christ Himself said. Show how those verses do not back up my position.

[Robert]

I don't buy it....Sorry

[Samie]

I don't sell truth... Sorry, too, brother.

[Samie]

If people are born spiritually dead in sin, then, people are born apart from Christ and,  as Christ Himself said, can do NOTHING: they can't believe nor repent.

But the fact that people are able to believe and repent tells us people can do SOMETHING, and therefore born spiritually alive In Christ.

[Gerr]

People/person before Christ is accepted as Savior and Lord by faith are:

1.  "...dead in trespasses and sins...." Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13

2.  "..were by nature children of wrath" Eph 2:3

3. Unrighteous, does not do good, does not seek God, etc.  Rom 3:9-18

4.  "Nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh," Rom 7:18

5.  May "have the desire to do what is right,but not the ability to carry it out," Rom 7:18

6.  Indwelt by sin, Rom 7:20;  "...law of sin..dwells in my members," Rom 7:23

That is why man must be born again. 

After Christ is accepted as Lord and Savior are:

1.  Forgiven, 1 Jn 1:9

2.  Cleansed from sin by the blood of Jesus, 1 Jn 1:7

3.  "made alive with Christ " and saved by grace, Eph 2:5

4.  Justified and at peace with God, Rom 5:1

5.  Under condemnation no more, Rom 8:1

6.  "...passed from death to life," Jn 5:24

7.  "...born again to a living hope"  1 Pe 1:3

8. "..a new creation"  2 Cor 5:17

[Gerr]

On 5/9/2016 at 8:14 AM, Samie said:

If people are born spiritually dead in sin, then, people are born apart from Christ and,  as Christ Himself said, can do NOTHING: they can't believe nor repent.

But the fact that people are able to believe and repent tells us people can do SOMETHING, and therefore born spiritually alive In Christ.

Sorry, but when the premise is wrong, the conclusion is bound to be erroneous as well.

The power to choose is never taken away from a sinner unless the person has totally submitted to Satan. 

Faith and repentance are gifts to be received.  

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

People/person before Christ is accepted as Savior and Lord by faith are:

1.  "...dead in trespasses and sins...." Eph 2:1,5; Col 2:13

2.  "..were by nature children of wrath" Eph 2:3

3. Unrighteous, does not do good, does not seek God, etc.  Rom 3:9-18

4.  "Nothing good dwells in me, that is in my flesh," Rom 7:18

5.  May "have the desire to do what is right,but not the ability to carry it out," Rom 7:18

6.  Indwelt by sin, Rom 7:20;  "...law of sin..dwells in my members," Rom 7:23

That is why man must be born again. 

After Christ is accepted as Lord and Savior are:

1.  Forgiven, 1 Jn 1:9

2.  Cleansed from sin by the blood of Jesus, 1 Jn 1:7

3.  "made alive with Christ " and saved by grace, Eph 2:5

4.  Justified and at peace with God, Rom 5:1

5.  Under condemnation no more, Rom 8:1

6.  "...passed from death to life," Jn 5:24

7.  "...born again to a living hope"  1 Pe 1:3

8. "..a new creation"  2 Cor 5:17

Can you please explain from Scriptures HOW people being dead in sin and hence APART from Christ, can do SOMETHING: believe?

Don't you believe Christ's words that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)?

Don't you believe that God caused us to be born again when Jesus rose from the dead (1 Pet 1:3)?

Don't you believe that all died with Christ when He died (2 Cor 5:14, 15) and that all were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6)?

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Sorry, but when the premise is wrong, the conclusion is bound to be erroneous as well.

Sorry too, but your premise -  while apart from Christ man can believe - is wrong.

My premise - apart from Christ man can do NOTHING - can not be wrong.

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, Samie said:

My premise - apart from Christ man can do NOTHING - can not be wrong.

Why do I say it with certainty? Because Christ Himself said so (John 15:5).

And I believe Him.

[Gerr]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Can you please explain from Scriptures HOW people being dead in sin and hence APART from Christ, can do SOMETHING: believe?

Don't you believe Christ's words that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)?

Don't you believe that God caused us to be born again when Jesus rose from the dead (1 Pet 1:3)?

Don't you believe that all died with Christ when He died (2 Cor 5:14, 15) and that all were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected (Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6)?

 

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Why do I say it with certainty? Because Christ Himself said so (John 15:5).

And I believe Him.

Nowhere did I say that man can repent or believe apart from Christ!  The Holy Spirit works on the heart and mind to convict the sinner of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment to come (Jn 16:8-11.  The Holy Spirit woos the sinner and when the 

sinner sees the goodness of God, he is led to repentance, (Rom 2:4)

If you read 1 Pet 1:1-2, of whom is Peter talking about who have been born anew?  The whole world or a particular group?

[Samie]

11 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Nowhere did I say that man can repent or believe apart from Christ!  

You may have not noticed it, but you did. Review your post. You said:

1. Before Christ is accepted man is dead, and, 2. After Christ is accepted, man is made alive.

By those 2 statements, it can be inferred that your position is:

Because of #1, before Christ is accepted, man is apart from Christ, being yet dead.

Becasue of #2, a person is only In Christ AFTER he accepts Him, having been made alive.

Hence PRIOR to accepting Christ, man is dead yet able to believe. IOW, you are indirectly saying that while apart from Christ, man can believe.

[Samie]

11 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

If you read 1 Pet 1:1-2, of whom is Peter talking about who have been born anew?  The whole world or a particular group?

Of course, he was writing to the ELECT scattered strangers in the places he mentioned. But it can be generally applied to the whole of Adam's race, no one left out. Why? Because God in Whom is no partiality, ELECTED all.

[Gerr]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

You may have not noticed it, but you did. Review your post. You said:

1. Before Christ is accepted man is dead, and, 2. After Christ is accepted, man is made alive.

By those 2 statements, it can be inferred that your position is:

Because of #1, before Christ is accepted, man is apart from Christ, being yet dead.

Becasue of #2, a person is only In Christ AFTER he accepts Him, having been made alive.

Hence PRIOR to accepting Christ, man is dead yet able to believe. IOW, you are indirectly saying that while apart from Christ, man can believe.

 

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Of course, he was writing to the ELECT scattered strangers in the places he mentioned. But it can be generally applied to the whole of Adam's race, no one left out. Why? Because God in Whom is no partiality, ELECTED all.

It seems to me that you are assuming that God the Father, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the angels are not working on sinners to bring them to repentance?

ESV | ‎Jn 16:8 And when he comes, he will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment:  ‎9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in me;  ‎10 concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father, and you will see me no longer;  ‎11 concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. 

Show me from the Scriptures how you can generalize what Peter was saying to the elect as being applicable to unbelievers.

The light of the gospel is brought to those in darkness so that they could see.

When are sinners joined to Christ and made spiritually alive?

[Samie]

On 15/05/2016 at 10:56 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

It seems to me that you are assuming that God the Father, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and the angels are not working on sinners to bring them to repentance?

No, I don't. People are enjoined to repent (Acts 17:30), to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21). Repentance (Gr metanoia) is a change of mind: instead of doing evil, one changes his mind and does what is good instead. Repentance is overcoming the evil of impenitence.

 

On 15/05/2016 at 10:56 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

Show me from the Scriptures how you can generalize what Peter was saying to the elect as being applicable to unbelievers.

God is not a respecter of persons; there is no partiality with Him (Acts 10:34 ; Rom 2:11; Eph 6:9 ). And we are told that God chose (elected) us before the foundation of the world and predestined us for adoption as His children in Christ (Eph 1:3-5) . If God only elected some and not all, then He is a respecter of persons. But He is not. So He fashioned us ALL into the body of His Son on the cross (please see the OP).

 

On 15/05/2016 at 10:56 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

The light of the gospel is brought to those in darkness so that they could see.

The Ethiopian eunuch comes to mind.  He traveled to Jerusalem from Ethiopia more than 4000 kms away to worship God. It was the HS Who caused Philip to meet with the eunuch who has now reached a level of  spiritual maturity where God has determined he has to personally know His Son. And so He sent Philip. How can the eunuch worship God is he was yet apart from Christ when Christ has said that apart from Him, man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)?  The eunuch was already God's child PRIOR to meeting Philip.

 

On 15/05/2016 at 10:56 PM, Gerry Cabalo said:

When are sinners joined to Christ and made spiritually alive?

Nobody is not a sinner because all have sinned (Rom 3:23). The reason Jesus came to this world is to save sinners (1 Tim 1:15), and He did NOT fail in fulfilling His mission (John 17:4).

As to when God joined sinners to Christ and made spiritually alive, please review the OP. 

Again, because of what God through Christ has done for humanity, people are physically born already spiritually alive in Christ. But only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ Who Himself is an overcomer, in His throne (Rev 3:21).

[Robert]

21 hours ago, Samie said:

Again, because of what God through Christ has done for humanity, people are physically born already spiritually alive in Christ. But only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life (Rev 3:5) and will be seated with Christ Who Himself is an overcomer, in His throne (Rev 3:21).

This is just wrong....It's false, Samie.  We are born spiritually dead (see Eph 2:3)

" All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh (i.e., our  fallen nature) and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."

 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

This is just wrong....It's false, Samie.  We are born spiritually dead (see Eph 2:3)

" All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh (i.e., our  fallen nature) and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath."

 

Eph 2:3 speaks of what occurs AFTER man is born. NOT his status BEFORE or during birth. Through what God through Christ has done FOR man right on that same day Adam sinned, people are born In Christ, and therefore spiritually alive.

[Gerr]

On 5/18/2016 at 4:59 PM, Samie said:

Eph 2:3 speaks of what occurs AFTER man is born. NOT his status BEFORE or during birth. Through what God through Christ has done FOR man right on that same day Adam sinned, people are born In Christ, and therefore spiritually alive.

Eph  2:3 is man's condition AFTER he is born and not BEFORE?  Nay!  Read Eph 2:1-3 again!

ESV | ‎Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins  ‎2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—  ‎3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

"...sinful nature..."  NIV.   

5449. φύσις phúsis; gen. phúseōs, fem. noun from phúō (5453), to bring forth. Nature, natural birth or condition (Rom. 2:27; Gal. 2:15); natural disposition (Eph. 2:3; 2 Pet. 1:4)

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

If every child born into this world has the spiritual nature like Adam's nature before he sinned, then man would not have all the evil cravings that everyone has  to contend with. 

NIV84 | ‎Ga 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 

If we are at birth born again in Christ, we would be born walking in the Spirit, but  Scripture is pretty clear that we are all born following the dictates of the flesh.