The Lie Many Honestly Believed As Truth

[LifeHiscost]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Believe what you want Samie,  The spirit was poured out on "all flesh" - ALL.  We humans have the ability to RESIST that spirit.  Those who do RESIST are drawn to the foot of the cross.  Their hearts are broken when they "see" God's love for us, and they are born again. 

In general I'm satisfied of the total helplessness of man from his/her beginning  because of Jesus comment, " …4Remain in Me, and I will remain in you. Just as no branch can bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in Me. 5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing......John 15

OTOH I'm also sure of man's total helpless depravity before being born again, because of this comment.

5For I was born a sinner—yes, from the moment my mother conceived me. 6But you desire honesty from the womb, teaching me wisdom even there. 7Purify me from my sins, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. 8Oh, give me back my joy again; you have broken me—now let me rejoice. 9Don’t keep looking at my sins. Remove the stain of my guilt.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God. Renew a loyal spirit within me. 11Do not banish me from your presence, and don’t take your Holy Spirit from me. 12Restore to me the joy of your salvation, and make me willing to obey you. 13Then I will teach your ways to rebels,m and they will return to you....Psalms 51

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[Samie]

14 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

NKJ  1 Peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

God the Father "has begotten us again" through the resurrection.  Who is "us"?  "Us" is the "elect" - "the pilgrims of the Dispersion" - NOT every person on the planet. 

Once AGAIN - you take the words out of context to apply them to every human being, when they are applied - in context - to a specific group.

Already answered here quite a while ago.

[LifeHiscost]

52 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The spirit was poured out on "all flesh" - ALL.  We humans have the ability to RESIST that spirit.  Those who do not RESIST are drawn to the foot of the cross.  Their hearts are broken when they "see" God's love for us, and they are born again. 

The example of Judas Iscariot and Lucifer the son of the morning indicates clearly they were in slavery from the very beginning of their relationship with Jesus.

…43Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you are unable to accept My message. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out his desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, refusing to uphold the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, because he is a liar and the father of lies. 45But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me!… John 8

…5“Why wasn’t this perfume sold for three hundred denarii and the money given to the poor?” 6Judas did not say this because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief. As keeper of the money bag, he used to take from what was put into it...... John 12

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

[Samie]

Lucifer was created perfect, yet he chose to sin. 

Adam was created perfect, yet he chose to sin.

Same with us. We were physically born spiritually alive BUT we can like Adam, chose to sin and that's allowing evil to overcome us instead of overcoming it with good.

[Samie]

18 hours ago, jackson said:

From scripture it is clear that no one is born in Christ

How clear? As the floody river? Where, what verse(s) please?

While waiting, here's one verse that says otherwise:

Quote

NIV Ecclesiastes 7:29 This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

Adam came out perfect from God's hands. But he chose to sin.  Same with us. We were born upright and hence In Christ, but we chose to sin. No one can be upright APART from Christ because there's no other name under heaven given to men for their salvation.

[Samie]

20 hours ago, jackson said:

You asked how one apart from Christ could do anything and I told you . You are given a measure of faith to recognize his knocking at your heart to let Him in.

You are saying that having faith comes BEFORE Christ's knocking. That's precisely what I'm saying.

The fact that people have faith proves that they are already In Christ and therefore spiritually alive because faith is fruit of the Spirit and only those NOT apart from Christ can bear fruit.

[8thdaypriest]

    Romans 8:9  “But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.” (NKJ)

Revelation 3:20 "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him" (NKJ)

Christ cannot "come in" to anyone UNTIL that person HEARS and then OPENS their heart door. 

The drawing of God's spirit IS the "knocking".  The "measure of faith" enables the person to OPEN their heart to more of the spirit.  But the "measure" and the "knocking" DO NOT RENDER A PERSON SAVED, and they DO NOT mean that a person has been "born again from above".  The "born again" person has actually OPENED their heart to Christ. 

If Jesus is on the OUTSIDE "knocking" - He has NOT YET "come in". 

Before the Damascus road, Paul was NOT indwelt by the Spirit of Christ.  He may have been under conviction, but he had NOT YET opened his heart door to Jesus.  Paul sites two men whom he says were "in Christ BEFORE ME".    This tells us that Paul did not regard himself as always having been "in Christ".  There was a specific TIME when Christ came "in" to Paul, and Paul came to be "in Christ". 

Romans 16:7 “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

[JoeMo]

" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, ⁴ even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love  He predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, ⁶ to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved." (Eph1:3-6)

 

To me this says that all men were born predestined to be saved.  Does that mean they were all born "in Christ", or that they were all born with the OPPORTUNITY to be "in Christ"?  I believe it is the latter.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Christ cannot "come in" to anyone UNTIL that person HEARS and then OPENS their heart door. 

For me, HEARING and OPENING the heart - one's center of emotions - is accepting Christ to lead and guide one's life through the HS. They are acts only those IN Christ can do because APART from Him Christ said man can do NOTHING. Christ's coming into one's heart is simply making the person aware, feel and consciously experience his intimate relationship with Him.

Paul said he was crucified with Christ and was made alive TOGETHER with Him, statements that tell me he is already in Christ PRIOR to his experience in the road to Damascus where he heard and opened his heart's door to Christ and He came in. In this later experience, Andronicus and Junia were ahead of him.

[Samie]

58 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

To me this says that all men were born predestined to be saved.  Does that mean they were all born "in Christ", or that they were all born with the OPPORTUNITY to be "in Christ"?  I believe it is the latter.

I believe it is the former. Hence, people can do SOMETHING - they can hear the knocking and open their heart's door.

If it is the latter, then people can do NOTHING. I guess Christ won't even dare knock since He knows APART from Him man can NOTHING and the person can't hear nor open.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, jackson said:

You agree that faith comes before knocking, and you added that faith means one is in Christ.  If that is so, then why is Christ knocking for entrance?

It's but another way of saying "Allow Me to guide you", "Repent", "Overcome evil with good", "Use my power to overcome evil with good", "Believe and overcome the evil of unbelief".

And Faith which is fruit of the Spirit ONLY those In Christ can bear, is the victory that overcomes the world. It is the energy that proceeds from Christ traveling to all of His Body parts, empowering each one to be able to overcome evil with good. And overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

Has Christ stopped knocking at your heart's door, brother?

[Samie]

3 hours ago, jackson said:

So we are not to take the Bible as it reads?

I think it's you who seem to be the one guilty of this, brother. I believe the Bible when it says when APART from Christ man can do NOTHING, but you take it to mean APART from Christ man can do SOMETHING: he can believe, hear His knock and open his heart's door.

[Samie]

26 minutes ago, jackson said:

I asked you about the demoniac. Was he in Christ or not?

Another issue?  So, can a person believe while APART from Christ?

But I can engage you in a discussion about the demoniac you are referring to. And since there are a couple of demon possessions in the gospels, specify the verses where your demoniac in question is found. I'll wait.

[Samie]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

As for the reference about which demoniac,please read my post again. i gave it to you there.

If you are that apathetic to give me directly the verses, then sorry. I have other better things to do than do a wild-goose-chase hunting for your post.

[Samie]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Incidentally, you misrepresented my position. I did not say you could do something without Christ. I said you could come to Him because of the measure of faith given to all at birth, and I gave you Bible references to that.  It is you who carried it further by insisting that to have any faith at all, you had to be in  "in Christ". You insisted on this despite numerous Bible verses to the contrary

Numerous verses? Which verses in the Bible contradict Jesus' own words that APART from Him man can do NOTHING nor can bear fruit?

For the nth time, Faith is fruit of the Spirit only those NOT APART from Christ can bear. You believe that all are given the measure of faith at birth BUT you contradict yourself by saying people are yet APART from Christ when given faith. How can people bear fruit (faith) at birth IF they are born APART from Christ? Didn't Christ EXPLICITLY say that APART from Him man cannot bear fruit?

Jesus: APART from Me. man can do NOTHING nor can bear fruit.

jackson: APART from Christ, man can do SOMETHING: he can bear fruit called faith and use that faith to come to Christ and be In Christ.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, jackson said:

You are right in insisting that you can do nothing without Christ, for if it were not for His sacrifice the Lord would not have put that measure of faith into every soul.to give him/her the ability to respond to His call. But the numerous scriptures given to you by other posters showing that being "in Christ' involves a total surrender/ conversion contradict your notion that all are born "in Christ".

Numerous scriptures, again?

Which of those numerous scriptures contradict Jesus' statement that no one can come to Him UNLESS the Father draws him?

Which of those numerous scriptures contradict the biblical statement that God fashioned humanity into the body of His Son on the cross thereby creating THE New Man: Christ the Head, Humanity the Body?

Which of those numerous scriptures contradict the Biblical statement that being His Body, all died when Christ died and that all were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He resurrected?

How can I not say that we are physically born already in Christ, when it was the Father Who drew us to His Son by fashioning us into the Body of His Son on the cross and therefore we died and were resurrected TOGETHER with Him?

BUT I'll wait for you to come up with even one of those numerous scriptures you say are AGAINST my position and were paraded in many posts.

 

[Gerr]

You are absolutely right that NO ONE can do anything without Christ.  But you err absolutely with your premise that only those who are born again can do anything.  As I mentioned before,  "In Him all things hold together" Col 1:17.  Whether saint or sinner, whether Satan or Gabriel, they can do nothing except by the sustaining power of Christ.  ESV | ‎Ac 17:28 for “ ‘In him we live and move and have our being’"

One cannot be born again and be counted as righteous until he/she receives the righteousness that is from God by faith,  Rom 3:25,  Rom 4:16, Gal 3:20.   

[Samie]

3 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

One cannot be born again and be counted as righteous until he/she receives the righteousness that is from God by faith,  Rom 3:25,  Rom 4:16, Gal 3:20.   

Again, scripture is emphatically clear that people's new birth was when Jesus resurrected:

Quote

NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

Did Paul in Rom 3:25,  Rom 4:16, Gal 3:20 - texts you presented to prove your point about how people were born again -  contradict what he said in Col 2:13 that people were made alive TOGETHER with Christ - hence born again when He resurrected as Peter said? 

IF each one is born again as they believe one at a time, how is that made alive TOGETHER with Christ? I don't think "TOGETHER with" also means "one at a time".

[Samie]

15 hours ago, jackson said:

1. Everyone is born with a measure of faith, for Jesus lighteth everyone that comes into the world Rom 12:3 and John 1:9

The fact that people are born with faith - fruit of the Spirit - is proof they are born already in Christ, for APART from Him no one can bear fruit.

Your item #'s 2 - 6 are simply acts of overcoming evil with good. Acts doable only by those already In Christ.

15 hours ago, jackson said:

7. To be in Christ is a free will choice and not something given you at birth, as can be clearly seen by the above scriptures.. This is further affirmed by additional scriptures that show that those in Christ were "once far off" and that Paul  was at one time "not in Christ" .  Rom 16:7 and  Eph 2:12-13.

NOT to be in Christ but to live in accordance with Christ's will is what is free will choice. You did not choose your parents, did you, brother? But you can choose to live in accordance with their will or not.  The Pauline verses you used do not say what you say they say. In fact Paul identified himself with the Athenians in Mar's Hill as children of God and hence In Christ just like him.

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/19/2016 at 1:00 AM, jackson said:

It is not another issue , but rather just another Bible, reference, among many, regarding the measure of faith given to everyone interdependent of being "in Christ".

Incidentally, you misrepresented my position. I did not say you could do something without Christ. I said you could come to Him because of the measure of faith given to all at birth, and I gave you Bible references to that.  It is you who carried it further by insisting that to have any faith at all, you had to be in  "in Christ". You insisted on this despite numerous Bible verses to the contrary

You are right in insisting that you can do nothing without Christ, for if it were not for His sacrifice the Lord would not have put that measure of faith into every soul.to give him/her the ability to respond to His call. But the numerous scriptures given to you by other posters showing that being "in Christ' involves a total surrender/ conversion contradict your notion that all are born "in Christ".

As for the reference about which demoniac,please read my post again. i gave it to you there.

 God is omnipresent.  He is spirit, and His spirit is everywhere.   And He gives to everyone "a measure of faith" (it's built into our makeup) to enable them to RESPOND when they HEAR the truths concerning God and His Son.  But there is a difference between being "born" - physically born into this world where the spirit of God is pervasive, and being "born AGAIN", when something "NEW" comes in to the heart and mind.  When one is "born again", old thoughts - old ideas - old beliefs - old desires are cast aside.   That's not something that happens when one is physically born.  It happens when one is "born from above" and starts a NEW LIFE.

IF the first type of "birth" is what is meant by being "in Christ" (living within the sphere of His spirit's influence), then how could those Gentiles who believed have formerly been "separate from Christ" and "without God" BEFORE they believed.   "Without Christ" does NOT sound like they were formerly "in Christ". 

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called "Uncircumcision " by the so-called "Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands-- 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (Eph 2:11 NAU)

[Samie]

OK, jackson.

Christ: Apart from Me, man can do NOTHING.

jackson: Apart from Christ, man can do SOMETHING: he can hear Christ's knock and even open the door.

Let us leave it at that.

[Samie]

In Scriptures, it was God Who CAUSED man's being born again: made spiritually alive (1 Pet 1:3; Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13). As a consequence of what God did FOR man through Christ, people are physically born already spiritually alive, that is already In Christ.

To live a born-again life or NOT, is man's choice. This is where free-will comes into play.  This is where Christ's knocking, His call to repentance, and man's response to His knock and call, all occur.

[Musicman1228]

18 hours ago, Samie said:

In Scriptures, it was God Who CAUSED man's being born again: made spiritually alive (1 Pet 1:3; Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13). As a consequence of what God did FOR man through Christ, people are physically born already spiritually alive, that is already In Christ.

To live a born-again life or NOT, is man's choice. This is where free-will comes into play.  This is where Christ's knocking, His call to repentance, and man's response to His knock and call, all occur.

Samie, Please confirm for me from the words of Jesus in Matthew and John (gospel, letters, Revelation) where what you believe about being 'born again' as spiritually alive at physical birth is true. Thanks.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

Samie, Please confirm for me from the words of Jesus in Matthew and John (gospel, letters, Revelation) where what you believe about being 'born again' as spiritually alive at physical birth is true. Thanks.

I have already done it in my posts in the thread where we are discussing. But I'll give in to your request in this thread.

People are born spiritually alive and hence In Christ, because Christ Himself assured that the little children are heaven-bound (Matt 18:3; 19:14). If people are physically born APART from Christ, then little children are hell-bound instead of heaven-bound.

God Himself showed Isaiah in a vision of the new earth little children playing with the lion and other animals (Isa 11:6-9), proving that indeed little children are heaven-bound as Jesus said.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Musicman1228 said:

Samie, Please confirm for me from the words of Jesus in Matthew and John (gospel, letters, Revelation) where what you believe about being 'born again' as spiritually alive at physical birth is true. Thanks.

I have already done it in my posts in the thread where we are discussing. But I'll give in to your request in this thread.

People are born spiritually alive and hence In Christ, because Christ Himself assured that the little children are heaven-bound (Matt 18:3; 19:14). If people are physically born APART from Christ, then little children are hell-bound instead of heaven-bound.

God Himself showed Isaiah in a vision of the new earth little children playing with the lion and other animals (Isa 11:6-9), proving that indeed little children are heaven-bound as Jesus said.