The Lie Many Honestly Believed As Truth

[Samie]

54 minutes ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Eph  2:3 is man's condition AFTER he is born and not BEFORE?  Nay!  Read Eph 2:1-3 again!

ESV | ‎Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins  ‎2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—  ‎3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

Walking, Following, Living, Carrying out are actions done AFTER one is born, NOT before or during one's birth. 

 

1 hour ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

"...sinful nature..."  NIV.   

5449. φύσις phúsis; gen. phúseōs, fem. noun from phúō (5453), to bring forth. Nature, natural birth or condition (Rom. 2:27; Gal. 2:15); natural disposition (Eph. 2:3; 2 Pet. 1:4)

Zodhiates, S. (2000). The complete word study dictionary: New Testament (electronic ed.). Chattanooga, TN: AMG Publishers.

5449 fu,sij phusis {foo'-sis}

Meaning:  1) nature 1a) the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature 1a) as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse 1b) as opposed what has been produced by the art of man: the natural branches, i.e. branches by the operation of nature 1b) birth, physical origin 1c) a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature 1d) the sum of innate properties and powers by which one person differs from others, distinctive native peculiarities, natural characteristics: the natural strength, ferocity, and intractability of beasts

Origin:  from 5453; TDNT - 9:251,1283; n f

Usage:  AV - nature 10, natural + 2596 2, kind 1, mankind + 442 1; 14

 

1 hour ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

If every child born into this world has the spiritual nature like Adam's nature before he sinned, then man would not have all the evil cravings that everyone has  to contend with. 

Adam chose to sin even if he had an unfallen spiritual nature, how is that different from us born with that same unfallen nature yet also choose to sin?

 

1 hour ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

If we are at birth born again in Christ, we would be born walking in the Spirit, but  Scripture is pretty clear that we are all born following the dictates of the flesh.

Remember Jesus words advising adults to become like unto little children?

[Samie]

Why would Jesus say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING when He very well knows that while apart from Him man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be attached to Him? Any direct response to this, kabayan Gerry, or some sort of an explanation perhaps?

[LifeHiscost]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Why would Jesus say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING when He very well knows that while apart from Him man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be attached to Him? Any direct response to this, kabayan Gerry, or some sort of an explanation perhaps?

3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.....Romans 12

Perhaps since we are unable to do anything without Him, it is the misuse of His gift of believing that qualifies for the reality that "do NOTHING" is rightly included without contradiction except in the minds of men.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[Gerr]

On 6/4/2016 at 7:54 PM, Samie said:

Walking, Following, Living, Carrying out are actions done AFTER one is born, NOT before or during one's birth. 

Gerry answers:  1. Notice that Paul says,  "...once walked', "...once lived..",  "..were by nature children of wrath"  Those are past tense.  No truly born again follower of Christ would  in the present "walk, live, and continue to be children of wrath AFTER being born again.  Those who are born again are freed from condemnation, Rom 8:1 and passed from death to life, Jn 5:24.

Samie quote:

Adam chose to sin even if he had an unfallen spiritual nature, how is that different from us born with that same unfallen nature yet also choose to sin?

Gerry answers:

When you committed your first transgression, were you aware of it?  Did you willfully sin like Adam?  Or were you already breaking the law even before you were conscious of right and wrong?

 

On 6/4/2016 at 7:54 PM, Samie said:

Remember Jesus words advising adults to become like unto little children?

So what did He mean?  Paul also advised, "Let us go on to  maturity", Heb 6:1.

[Gerr]

On 6/5/2016 at 10:28 AM, Samie said:

Why would Jesus say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING when He very well knows that while apart from Him man can do SOMETHING - believe - to be attached to Him? Any direct response to this, kabayan Gerry, or some sort of an explanation perhaps?

Because whether saint or sinner - ESV | ‎Col 1:17 ".... in him all things hold together."   ESV | ‎Ac 17:28 for “ ‘In him we live and move and have our being’;"

Every breath, every heart beat, is because of the merits and direct sustaining power of Christ.  He makes His sun to shine on the just and unjust.  Whether sinner or born again, one cannot do anything without Christ.  Even Satan and his army are all still alive because Christ's power is still keeping them alive.  The sinner cannot repent or save himself without Christ.  So Christ has truly stated the truth when He said, "Without me, you can do nothing."  That's why we need a Savior.

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/6/2016 at 2:05 PM, Samie said:

KJV Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

God told Jeremiah he was sanctified in the womb before he was born (Jer 1:5). Apply that to David and we will have David shapen in iniquity and conceived in sin, but born already sanctified.

KJV Jeremiah 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Set apart (That's what sanctified means.) does NOT mean "born again".  All of Israel was sanctified (set apart) as God's own people.  That certainly did NOT make them righteous.

Jesus said, "You must be born again." 

If one is "born spiritually alive" - then why the need to be "born again from above" ?

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/6/2016 at 8:13 PM, Samie said:

The Bible defines Sin in at least FOUR (4) different ways:

1. Transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4

2. Whatever not of faith. Rom 14:23

3. Not doing what is good when opportunity comes. James 4:17

4. All unrighteousness. 1 John 5:17

I don't think the newborn child could be held accountable for any of the above.

The wisest man said that God made men righteous but they devised many inventions (Eccl 7:29). So how is a newborn a sinner when God made him righteous?

God created mankind (Adam and Eve) righteous, but THEY (Adam and Eve) devised many inventions. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/7/2016 at 2:35 PM, Samie said:

The Bible says we were born again when Jesus rose from the grave (1 Pet 1:3). Hence, people are physically born already born again, that is, already made spiritually alive. Col 2:13; Eph 2:4-6.

How many times????????????  Samie, you take what was addressed to BELIEVERS (born again people), and apply it to the entire human race. 

[8thdaypriest]

Here we are again.  This theme has been debated (by Samie) in thread, after thread, after thread, after thread.  I could give you a long - but not complete list.  Yet here we are -  debating it yet again.   

[Samie]

On 06/06/2016 at 3:33 AM, LifeHiscost said:

3For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but think of yourself with sober judgment, according to the measure of faith God has given you.....Romans 12

Perhaps since we are unable to do anything without Him, it is the misuse of His gift of believing that qualifies for the reality that "do NOTHING" is rightly included without contradiction except in the minds of men.

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

To be NOT apart from Christ is to be In Him. And apart from Him, He said, man can do NOTHING. Why do many still insist that while apart from Christ people can do SOMETHING - they can believe - so they can be part of Him?

Seems like believing the first lie the OP mentions led many to believe another lie: that while apart from Christ people can believe.

[Samie]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Here we are again.  This theme has been debated (by Samie) in thread, after thread, after thread, after thread.  I could give you a long - but not complete list.  Yet here we are -  debating it yet again.   

Reminds me of an anecdote of a church pastor repeating the same sermon over and over again in the same pulpit of the same parishioners. When asked why, he simply replied: "The same sermon will be repeated until it changes the lives of my parishioners."

Mine is an exercise in futility perhaps, but I don't easily give up.

 

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

God created mankind (Adam and Eve) righteous, but THEY (Adam and Eve) devised many inventions.

Mankind is NOT merely composed of Adam & Eve.  Why would it be wrong if I apply that to the whole of mankind and say that people are NOT physically born spiritually dead in sin, as Adam & Eve were?

 

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

How many times????????????  Samie, you take what was addressed to BELIEVERS (born again people), and apply it to the entire human race. 

How sure are you that Peter did NOT address his statement I quoted (1 Pet 1:3) to the whole of human race? I think I have reasons to believe why he addressed his statement to the whole of human race.

In the same book - 1 Peter - where I quoted Peter saying WE were born again when Jesus resurrected (1:3), Peter also wrote that Jesus bore OUR sins in His Body on the tree (2:24). If the WE does NOT apply to all of human race as you claimed, then the "our" should not apply to the whole of human race either. But the OUR applies to all of human race because Jesus is the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29; Heb 2:9; 1 John 2:2). Hence, the WE must necessarily apply to all of human race as well.

[Samie]

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Set apart (That's what sanctified means.) does NOT mean "born again".  All of Israel was sanctified (set apart) as God's own people.  That certainly did NOT make them righteous.

All that God sanctified God ALSO made perfect FOREVER. Why would that not make them righteous in God's sight, even if they are not in your sight?

 

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Jesus said, "You must be born again." 

If one is "born spiritually alive" - then why the need to be "born again from above" ?

Jesus' statement you quoted was made BEFORE he died, and that statement, for me, is but giving emphasis on the need that He had to die because had Jesus not died then no one - and that includes Nicodemus to whom Jesus addressed that statement - could have been born again, that is, born already spiritually alive. As Peter said, God has begotten people again when Jesus resurrected (1 Pet 1:3).

[Samie]

9 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Gerry answers:  1. Notice that Paul says,  "...once walked', "...once lived..",  "..were by nature children of wrath"  Those are past tense.  No truly born again follower of Christ would  in the present "walk, live, and continue to be children of wrath AFTER being born again.  Those who are born again are freed from condemnation, Rom 8:1 and passed from death to life, Jn 5:24.

Sorry to ask this, no offense meant, but just for emphasis: You don't sin anymore? If you say no, John says you lie.

Yes, you sin. Me, too. But that does not make us children of wrath because we are part of His Body and therefore children of God. We are born already part of His Body because of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world as manifested in Calvary. We are already heaven-bound UNTIL and UNLESS our names when we die are blotted out from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good while alive. The name of the game is overcoming. We get knocked down from time to time, but not knocked out. The fight is not over yet while alive. And it is God through Christ Who judges who the overcomers are.

But the issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not. You say they are, I say no. Granting you are right, then people BEFORE being "born again" are spiritually dead in sin and therefore APART from Christ. So how can they do SOMETHING - believe - when Jesus said they can do NOTHING when APART from Him?

[Gerr]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

Sorry to ask this, no offense meant, but just for emphasis: You don't sin anymore? If you say no, John says you lie.

Yes, you sin. Me, too. But that does not make us children of wrath because we are part of His Body and therefore children of God. We are born already part of His Body because of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world as manifested in Calvary. We are already heaven-bound UNTIL and UNLESS our names when we die are blotted out from the book of life for not overcoming evil with good while alive. The name of the game is overcoming. We get knocked down from time to time, but not knocked out. The fight is not over yet while alive. And it is God through Christ Who judges who the overcomers are.

But the issue is whether people are born spiritually dead in sin or not. You say they are, I say no. Granting you are right, then people BEFORE being "born again" are spiritually dead in sin and therefore APART from Christ. So how can they do SOMETHING - believe - when Jesus said they can do NOTHING when APART from Him?

Is Satan spiritually dead or alive?  Who is keeping him alive?  And how do you understand what "walking/living in sin mean?"

 

[8thdaypriest]

The entire human race is NOT/was NOT metaphysically melded into the "body" of Christ on the cross.  

The CHURCH is "his body".  Colossians 1:24  “Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body, that is, the church.”

Paul says we are "baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27, Rom 6:3).  

We are "buried with Him IN BAPTISM" (Rom 6:4, Col 2:12).  

No baptism = no "in Christ" = no "buried with Him" = no "died".

Ephesians 5:23 “For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior” (NIV).

Jesus will NOT save the entire human race.  He did NOT save the entire human race.  He will save "the church, his body". 

Here's a statement concerning Gentiles, and their condition "by birth".

Ephesians 2:11 “Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (which is done in the body by human hands)-- 12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world” (NIV).

Certainly doesn't sound like those Gentiles were born "spiritually alive" - does it?  They were "separate from Christ". 

So HOW could they believe???  Answer:  through the DRAWING of the Spirit of Christ.  It IS the power of Christ which enables belief - not from within the individual - but knocking/drawing on their hearts from the OUTSIDE - asking to come in.  We don't "believe" without Him - but He acts from OUTSIDE - not from within. 

OK post getting too long.  Gotta break here.

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Romans 16:7  [Paul writing] “Greet Andronicus and Junia, my countrymen and my fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.”

        Here Paul says that Andronicus and Junia were “in Christ” before he was.  Sounds like an EVENT which happens in time.          

    John 1:12  “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name:”

        By implication, those who do not believe in His name (or who do not yet believe) - who have not “received Him” -  are not (or not yet) children of God.  

    Galatians 3:26-27 and 4:6   “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.  For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”  “And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, ‘Abba, Father!’”

        It would seem that only those who have demonstrated their faith thru baptism, are considered Sons of God, and “in Christ”. 

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Is Satan spiritually dead or alive?  Who is keeping him alive?  And how do you understand what "walking/living in sin mean?"

Satan is physically alive because of God's Power that created him but he has long decided and chosen to live the lifestyle of the spiritually dead.

For me, to walk and live in sin is to consistently refuse to overcome evil with good and that is refusing to live the lifestyle of the spiritually alive.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Certainly doesn't sound like those Gentiles were born "spiritually alive" - does it?  They were "separate from Christ". 

So HOW could they believe???  Answer:  through the DRAWING of the Spirit of Christ.  It IS the power of Christ which enables belief - not from within the individual - but knocking/drawing on their hearts from the OUTSIDE - asking to come in.  We don't "believe" without Him - but He acts from OUTSIDE - not from within. 

From your post, the Spirit of Christ DRAWS the spiritually dead.   And then the spiritually dead BELIEVES while yet APART from Christ? You say He knocks from the outside. And then the spiritually dead OPENS his heart while yet APART from Christ?

If so, and it seems to be so, then you are saying that while APART from Christ, man can do SOMETHING: BELIEVE and OPEN his heart.

In my opinion, many don't seem to realize that to insist that people can believe while APART from Christ is DISBELIEF in Christ Who Himself said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. They put different shades of color to the plain and very simply words of the Master Teacher: "Apart from Me you can do NOTHING".

[8thdaypriest]

16 minutes ago, Samie said:

From your post, the Spirit of Christ DRAWS the spiritually dead.   And then the spiritually dead BELIEVES while yet APART from Christ? You say He knocks from the outside. And then the spiritually dead OPENS his heart while yet APART from Christ?

If so, and it seems to be so, then you are saying that while APART from Christ, man can do SOMETHING: BELIEVE and OPEN his heart.

In my opinion, many don't seem to realize that to insist that people can believe while APART from Christ is DISBELIEF in Christ Who Himself said APART from Him man can do NOTHING. They put different shades of color to the plain and very simply words of the Master Teacher: "Apart from Me you can do NOTHING".

Believe what you want Samie,  The spirit was poured out on "all flesh" - ALL.  We humans have the ability to RESIST that spirit.  Those who do not RESIST are drawn to the foot of the cross.  Their hearts are broken when they "see" God's love for us, and they are born again. 

[Gerr]

37 minutes ago, Samie said:

Satan is physically alive because of God's Power that created him but he has long decided and chosen to live the lifestyle of the spiritually dead.

For me, to walk and live in sin is to consistently refuse to overcome evil with good and that is refusing to live the lifestyle of the spiritually alive.

So since you say that only someone who is born can do anything, how could Satan be doing all the things he is doing?

Would a born again person be walking/living in sin?

[Samie]

13 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Believe what you want Samie,  The spirit was poured out on "all flesh" - ALL.  We humans have the ability to RESIST that spirit.  Those who do not RESIST are drawn to the foot of the cross.

Yes, the Spirit was poured out on ALL. And it is the Spirit that gives spiritual life, making people spiritually alive. Resisting is refusing the leading of the Spirit, refusing to overcome the evil of not following the guidance of the Spirit.

 

18 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Their hearts are broken when they "see" God's love for us, and they are born again. 

Scriptures EXPLICITLY say that God caused people to be born again THROUGH the resurrection of Jesus (1 Pet 1:3) not THROUGH people's believing or "seeing" God's love.  They "see" because they have been born again, not the other way around. 

And that's how I "see" it.

[8thdaypriest]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

Yes, the Spirit was poured out on ALL. And it is the Spirit that gives spiritual life, making people spiritually alive. Resisting is refusing the leading of the Spirit, refusing to overcome the evil of not following the guidance of the Spirit.

Scriptures EXPLICITLY say that God caused people to be born again THROUGH the resurrection of Jesus (1 Pet 1:3) not THROUGH people's believing or "seeing" God's love.  They "see" because they have been born again, not the other way around. 

And that's how I "see" it.

NKJ  1 Peter 1:1 "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,"

God the Father "has begotten us again" through the resurrection.  Who is "us"?  "Us" is the "elect" - "the pilgrims of the Dispersion" - NOT every person on the planet. 

Once AGAIN - you take the words out of context to apply them to every human being, when they are applied - in context - to a specific group.

[8thdaypriest]

12 minutes ago, Samie said:

Yes, the Spirit was poured out on ALL. And it is the Spirit that gives spiritual life, making people spiritually alive. Resisting is refusing the leading of the Spirit, refusing to overcome the evil of not following the guidance of the Spirit.

 

Even the spirit of God cannot make a person "spiritually alive" IF that person RESISTS the spirit.  God allows human beings the RIGHT OF REFUSAL.  To overpower us would be manipulation of the worst kind.

[Samie]

21 minutes ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

So since you say that only someone who is born can do anything, how could Satan be doing all the things he is doing?

Would a born again person be walking/living in sin?

As I said Satan is physically alive and so he can do things that are NOT in accordance with God's will.

We are spiritually alive -  because God caused us to be born again through the resurrection of Jesus (1 Pet 1:3) - BUT we can also refuse to overcome evil with good. Same with Adam who was created perfect but still was able to commit sin.

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Even the spirit of God cannot make a person "spiritually alive" IF that person RESISTS the spirit.  God allows human beings the RIGHT OF REFUSAL.  To overpower us would be manipulation of the worst kind.

God does NOT overpower us to NOT overcome evil with good or to overcome it. Instead, He empowered us - by making us part of the body of Christ and therefore made spiritually alive - to overcome evil with good. We can do all things through Christ, says Paul. Overpowering is different from empowering.

But yes, we have the RIGHT to refuse.  We can refuse to overcome evil with good while alive and get blotted out from the book of life when we die.