The Lie Many Honestly Believed As Truth

[8thdaypriest]

On 6/22/2016 at 5:27 PM, Samie said:

I have already done it in my posts in the thread where we are discussing. But I'll give in to your request in this thread.

People are born spiritually alive and hence In Christ, because Christ Himself assured that the little children are heaven-bound (Matt 18:3; 19:14). If people are physically born APART from Christ, then little children are hell-bound instead of heaven-bound.

God Himself showed Isaiah in a vision of the new earth little children playing with the lion and other animals (Isa 11:6-9), proving that indeed little children are heaven-bound as Jesus said.

As we have discussed many times before, it was the trusting nature of children toward Jesus, that is "heaven bound" as you say.  

Children have not repented.  They have not believed - in the sense needed for baptism.  They have not specifically CHOSEN Christ as their Master and King. 

To give a child eternal life and transport him into heaven, God would have to manipulate that child's mind - to ensure his continued harmony with the spirit of heaven.  THAT is manipulation.  That child did not choose to be there.  That child's CHOICE was never tested or demonstrated.  I do NOT BELIEVE our God is a manipulator.  If God was going to do such, then He should have done it with Adam and Eve - and skipped this whole mess. 

As you know, I believe that all children (along with all adults who lived and died in ignorance - for whatever reason) will be resurrected as "the rest of the dead" at the end of the 1000 years.  THis is why Isaiah saw children playing in the kingdom with Christ reigning. 

These children will then "grow up" in the kingdom of Jesus on earth, governed and taught by His "priests of God and of Christ".  But they still must CHOOSE whom they will serve.  Those who CHOOSE to serve Jesus and God the Father will become citizens of the New Jerusalem.  Those who REFUSE will join the army of Gog and Magog.  They will be consumed when God defends His own by fire. 

There are several studies on this topic at my website prophecyviewpoint.com. 

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/20-Kingdom of Priests.pdf

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book Chapters/1-INTRODUCTION.pdf

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/21-The 8th Day.pdf

[Samie]

I think making people UPRIGHT is love and grace, NOT manipulation.

Quote

NIV Ecclesiastes 7:29 This only have I found: God made mankind upright, but men have gone in search of many schemes."

[Gerr]

On 6/19/2016 at 4:20 PM, Samie said:

Again, scripture is emphatically clear that people's new birth was when Jesus resurrected:

Did Paul in Rom 3:25,  Rom 4:16, Gal 3:20 - texts you presented to prove your point about how people were born again -  contradict what he said in Col 2:13 that people were made alive TOGETHER with Christ - hence born again when He resurrected as Peter said? 

IF each one is born again as they believe one at a time, how is that made alive TOGETHER with Christ? I don't think "TOGETHER with" also means "one at a time".

1.  By your first statement above, then no BC believers were ever born again?  And only AD believers have that hope?

2.  Here is what Col 2:13 says.  ESV | ‎Col 2:13 "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses," 

This verse actually contradicts your premise that people are actually born "born again". Notice what the verse says.  "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, ". Paul is just repeating to the Colossians what he told the Ephesians - ESV | ‎Eph 2:1 "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins  ‎2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience—  ‎3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.  ‎4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,  ‎5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"— 

Man's condition before he accepts Jesus as Savior by faith - "conceived in sin", "dead in trespasses", "slave to sin", "lost sheep".  After he receives Christ by faith - "born again", "made alive together with Christ", "forgiven", "redeemed" "atoned for" "children of God".  The BC believers were saved by virtue of looking forward to what Jesus did on Calvary, and the AD believers looking back to it.

3.  We are not saved en masse.  We are saved one by one as we receive by faith (Rom 3:25) the gift of righteousness that God offers.  The unborn are not capable of exercising faith to receive that righteousness.

4.  Furthermore, if you look at the context of your original text "apart from me you can do nothing" (Jn 15:5), you will find  that it is about bearing fruit.  It requires an indwelling Christ and Holy Spirit for a person to bear the fruit of the Spirit.  Without the indwelling Christ and HS, Paul says, KJV 1900 | ‎Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. 

No sinner can even repent on his own, it too is a gift.

 

 

[Stan]

In my opinion, calling someone else belief a LIE because they differ is crass and rude. It puts up brick walls before before can even see any reasoning...

 

Just my opinion, does anyone else agree?

[Robert]

39 minutes ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

Man's condition before he accepts Jesus as Savior by faith - "conceived in sin", "dead in trespasses", "slave to sin", "lost sheep".

Titus 3:3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[Samie]

5 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

1.  By your first statement above, then no BC believers were ever born again?  And only AD believers have that hope?

NO. See the OP.  Christ is the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. His sacrifice covered all of Adam's race.

Again, if people are born APART from Christ, then they can do NOTHING: they cannot believe nor repent nor accept the gift.  The fact that people can believe and repent and accept the gift proves they can do SOMETHING and therefore they are born NOT apart from Him.

5 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

 ‎5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"— 

Man's condition before he accepts Jesus as Savior by faith - "conceived in sin", "dead in trespasses", "slave to sin", "lost sheep".  After he receives Christ by faith - "born again", "made alive together with Christ", "forgiven", "redeemed" "atoned for" "children of God".  The BC believers were saved by virtue of looking forward to what Jesus did on Calvary, and the AD believers looking back to it.

Not quite. You added your own words to the verse: "after he receives Christ by faith". Read v5 again: we were dead when God made us alive TOGETHER with Christ. How did we die? We died when Christ died, just as Paul was crucified with Christ. 2 Cor 5:14, 15; Gal 2:20.

5 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

3.  We are not saved en masse.  We are saved one by one as we receive by faith (Rom 3:25) the gift of righteousness that God offers.  The unborn are not capable of exercising faith to receive that righteousness.

The Bible says we were made alive TOGETHER, not one by one, with Christ. We died when He died and were made alive TOGETHER with Him when He rose from the dead. Paul was yet unconverted when Jesus was crucified, yet Paul says he was crucified with Christ. So with us.

5 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

4.  Furthermore, if you look at the context of your original text "apart from me you can do nothing" (Jn 15:5), you will find  that it is about bearing fruit.

Yes. And only those NOT apart from Christ can bear fruit.