Are people basically good?

[Robert]

I ask this because from my perspective at least 50% of the folks on CA fall into two categories: liberal or legalistic....

 

[phkrause]

Can mankind produce genuine righteousness outside faith in Christ?

Do you mean "Can mankind produce genuine righteousness outside "of" faith in Christ?"

[Robert]

Yes

[phkrause]

Than I would say No!!

Also I don't buy your statement: "I ask this because from my perspective at least 50% of the folks on CA fall into two categories: liberal or legalistic...."

 

[Samie]

People are born basically good because of what God through Christ has done FOR man so that man can be born spiritually alive. By virtue of the life, death and resurrection of Jesus, people are born In Christ. But AFTER birth and upon reaching the age of accountability, majority choose to be overcome of evil instead of overcoming it with good. And only a small minority decides to overcome evil. The Power to overcome evil proceeds from Christ whose Body, one is part of. Thus, any righteousness man has is not his own but Christ's.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, phkrause said:

Than I would say No!!

Also I don't buy your statement: "I ask this because from my perspective at least 50% of the folks on CA fall into two categories: liberal or legalistic...."

 

Well, that's my perspective....maybe opinion would be a better statement.

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

People are born basically good because of what God through Christ has done FOR man so that man can be born spiritually alive. 

Good in Christ, but not as children of Adam

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, Samie said:

People are born basically good because of what God through Christ has done FOR man so that man can be born spiritually alive.

 

7 minutes ago, Robert said:

Good in Christ, but not as children of Adam

It's good to see that you are in a better perspective now than before.

[Bravus]

Does 'righteousness' equal 'moral good' in this question?

To me 'righteousness' connotes 'right with God', which to me is related to, but not the same thing as, 'morally good'. 

If the question were asked 'Can human beings be morally good outside of faith in Christ?', then to me the answer is unequivocally 'yes'. Any other response assumes that 80% of all humans are not morally good, and that is not what my observations of the world show.

[Bravus]

The euthyphro dilemma is relevant to this discussion: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthyphro_dilemma

I suspect that Robert will fall on the side of 'what is morally good is morally good because it is in accordance with the will of God', rather than 'the will of God is the will of God because it is morally good'.

[Robert]

This best fits what the Bible teaches on our human condition:

"Psychological egoism is the view that humans are always motivated by self-interest, even in what seem to be acts of altruism. It claims that, when people choose to help others, they do so ultimately because of the personal benefits that they themselves expect to obtain, directly or indirectly, from doing so." [Wikipedia]

"The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2].  It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14]. Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28].  In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5]. [Jack Sequeira]

[Samie]

Adam was created in the image of God, and therefore created with a Godly nature.  On the day of Adam's fall into sin, God did not just fold His hands and did nothing but simply allowed man's nature to morph from its original Godly nature to one Robert calls "spiritually "bent" so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self". No. Right on that same day, God implemented the plan of redemption devised before the foundation of the world.  That plan was revealed in the life, death, resurrection and High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary of our Lord & Savior, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do we fault someone for being dark-skinned when he is born dark-skinned? Do we fault our dogs because they bark instead of purr?

If indeed, man's nature after the fall has changed because God did nothing to forestall the change, neither must God hold people accountable for doing things in accordance with their evil nature because they could not do otherwise.

But God forestalled the change and instead reinstated man to his pre-fall Godly state, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son. Hence, people are accountable for not overcoming evil with good because born already In Christ, they have His Power to overcome evil.

[Bravus]

To put my earlier question in slightly different language, if you define 'genuine righteousness' as 'faith in Christ', your question reduces to 'Can mankind produce faith in Christ outside faith in Christ?', and it answers itself.

[Robert]

3 hours ago, David Geelan said:

To put my earlier question in slightly different language, if you define 'genuine righteousness' as 'faith in Christ', your question reduces to 'Can mankind produce faith in Christ outside faith in Christ?', and it answers itself.

Then let me restate the question:  Can man produce agape without God's Spirit dwelling in him?  

[Outta Here]

I guess that's impossible to know...if we believe that God's Spirit is capable of dwelling within any man.

[Bravus]

5 hours ago, Robert said:

Then let me restate the question:  Can man produce agape without God's Spirit dwelling in him?  

Then I would have to say 'Yes'. Perhaps not to the standard of absolute pure selflessness you would hold them to, but yes, people all around the world exhibit unselfish non-romantic love for other people all the time, every day.

[Samie]

13 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

Then I would have to say 'Yes'. Perhaps not to the standard of absolute pure selflessness you would hold them to, but yes, people all around the world exhibit unselfish non-romantic love for other people all the time, every day.

And that proves people are born spiritually alive In Christ because of what God through His Son has done for all of humanity. Yet, only those whom God through Christ judges as overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

[Robert]

57 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

Then I would have to say 'Yes'. Perhaps not to the standard of absolute pure selflessness you would hold them to, but yes....

Now David it's not a standard that I have created.  "Agape is not self-seeking" according to 1 Cor 13:5 (NIV).  Paul clarifies what this means:  "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Cor 10:24 (AKJV)  

Then Paul gives an example what self-love looks like: "If I give all I possess to the poor..., but do not have [agape], nothing is gained".

[Samie]

I guess, Christ did not do away with self-love when He referred to the Father's command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" as being like the greatest commandment, did He? Even Paul and James referred to that statement.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

I guess, Christ did not do away with self-love when He referred to the Father's command to "Love your neighbor as yourself" as being like the greatest commandment, did He? Even Paul and James referred to that statement.

How are you to love your neighbor?  As you love yourself. 

Now, if you loved others as you naturally by birth love yourself then you would work for their wealth, not your own.  There's no self in agape.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

And that proves people are born spiritually alive In Christ....

We have a glorified humanity in Christ who is in heaven.  

Eph 2:6 "God raised us (our sinless, glorified corporate life) up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus..."

Now, are you in heaven? If not then this isn't speaking about your old life from Adam. Samie, we are sinners falling short of the glory of God.  We are righteous in Christ by faith, not in reality.  We receive this glorified life at the 2nd coming.

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Robert said:

Paul gives an example what self-love looks like: "If I give all I possess to the poor..., but do not have [agape], nothing is gained".

Humans can't generate agape.  We are totally bankrupt of it because of the fall.  We can produce what looks like agape, but it's in reality a u-turn agape, which is self-love camouflaged as genius love.

If I gave all I possess to the poor I would be considered a great moral man, but without Christ my "good works" would actually be "filthy rags" because all I can do without Christ is polluted with iniquity (i.e., my bent-to-self).  In other words without Christ working in me all I do outwardly will be for a self-serving motivation.  Maybe my name in the paper?  Maybe to impress someone?  There's a whole host of selfish motives...

 

[Robert]

For example let's look at the Pharisees, who were considered to be very pious:

"While they (the Pharisees) claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory (which is based on self-love) was the real object (i.e., motive) which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law.

But the principles cherished by the Pharisees are such as are characteristic of humanity in all ages. The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature; and as the Saviour showed the contrast between His own spirit and methods and those of the rabbis, His teaching is equally applicable to the people of all time.

In the days of Christ the Pharisees were continually trying to earn the favor of Heaven (now here's their motive:) in order to secure worldly honor and prosperity which they regarded as the reward of virtue. At the same time they paraded their acts of charity before the people in order to (here's their motive again:) attract their attention and gain a reputation for sanctity." MB 79

[Robert]

Self-righteous acts camouflaged or disguised in the name of Christ are exposed in the judgment and clearly identified as works of iniquity (i.e., works motivated by self-love).  All Christians must consider this text seriously.  Do our works originate from Christ and therefore motivated by agape, or are they the “fair shew in the flesh” [Galatians 6:12]?  Are our works the result of a genuine relationship with Christ (i.e, works of faith) or are we working in His name but we really don’t know Him?  [See also Luke 13:25-28.] [Jack Sequeira]

[Bravus]

Right. So you already have a particular answer in mind to your question.

That's fair enough, I guess, but it means this thread ends up as a sermon, not a conversation.