Are people basically good?

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

Fact is Adam sinned and that despite NOT having a sin nature, disproving your statement that people sin because of sin nature.

Fact is sin will not arise a second time!  Can you explain this keeping freewill in mind? If not, then you can't explain how it came into existence.  

We know why we sin - because we have a bent-to-self dwelling in our humanity. 

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

....God intervened that day and reinstated Adam to his original nature before the Fall, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. That act caused Adam's descendants to be born NOT spiritually dead in sin but spiritually alive In Christ.

Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man (Adam) sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned....18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men....19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many (i.e, all) were made sinners....

Rom 7:16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I do. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 

The teaching given in regard to what is termed “holy flesh” (i.e, no indwelling sin or no sin nature) is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts, but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, “I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing” (Romans 7:18). [Ellen White]

 

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

You teach that to be In Christ, one has to believe first. That is legalism although you deny it.

I never said that.  

All men were "in Christ" at His death (i.e., when One died, all died).  1 Cor 5:14

All men were "in Christ" at His resurrection.  Eph 2:6

Christ has justified all men unto life. Rom 5:18

But God will not force the individual to accept what He has already accomplished in the doing and dying of Christ.  If He did He would not be a God of love, but one of coercion and force, attributes that belong to the devil.

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

No sir. Overcoming cannot be legalism because people are born already In Christ.

"In Christ" we stand blameless (see Col 1:21-23), but the "we" here is not referring to us as individuals. Paul is writing of our "new creation" (see 2 Cor 5:17) or our glorified, corporate humanity that is "in Christ" in the heavenly places.

 By faith we as individuals have accepted Christ's finished work and in return our High Priest presents this "new creation" before God and His Holy law!  In Him we are complete - in ourselves (as individuals) we are sinners saved by grace.

Jesus stands in the holy of holies, now to appear in the presence of God for us. There He ceases not to present His people moment by moment, complete in Himself....We are complete in Him, accepted in the Beloved, only as we abide in Him by faith.

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God's Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in him” (Colossians 2:10). Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. [Ellen White Reflecting Christ p 76]

[JoeMo]

20 hours ago, Robert said:

Why would you choose to sin if you have been set free?  No, you sin because you have a sin nature and therefore you have not been freed from "indwelling sin".

Who knows (besides God)?  Are you gonna tell me you have never consciously sinned since you became a believer?  If so, I don't know whether to say "good for you" or "you are deceiving yourself".

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

Fact is sin will not arise a second time!  Can you explain this keeping freewill in mind? If not, then you can't explain how it came into existence. 

You have no Scripture for that.

If what you have in mind is Nahum 1:9 then sorry. It's not sin that shall not arise the second time but affliction.

In Hebrew, "affliction" is hr'c' tsarah; "sin" is ha'j'x] chata'ah.

Again, your statement that people sin because of sin nature is proven false because Adam sinned despite NOT having sin nature.

 

[Robert]

19 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Who knows (besides God)?  Are you gonna tell me you have never consciously sinned since you became a believer?  If so, I don't know whether to say "good for you" or "you are deceiving yourself".

I think you need to deal with Samie on this one.  I never implied I'm not a sinner.....

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

"In Christ" we stand blameless (see Col 1:21-23), but the "we" here is not referring to us as individuals. Paul is writing of our "new creation" (see 2 Cor 5:17) or our glorified, corporate humanity that is "in Christ" in the heavenly places.

Sorry, but incorrect. There is no "we" in Col 1:21-23 but "you" and is referring to Colossians (and hence to us) as individuals. Here:

KJV Colossians 1:21-23  

Quote

 

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 

22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: 

23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister

 

Paul preached to individuals not to your "corporate humanity".

[Robert]

19 minutes ago, Samie said:

It's not sin that shall not arise the second time but affliction.

Affliction is the result of sin....

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

I think you need to deal with Samie on this one.  I never implied I'm not a sinner.....

Neither did I.

I believe all sinned, and hence all are sinners, NOT born sinners.

[Samie]

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

Affliction is the result of sin....

That's beside the point. Your use of Nahum 1:9 is inappropriate. But I won't press you further since it had been shown that your position that people sin because of sin nature is unscriptural.

[Samie]

Again, Adam sinned despite NOT having sin nature. And that disproves Robert's statement that man sins because of sin nature.

[APL]

Never will evil again be manifest. Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. {GC 504}

 

Romans 5:12 Why, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed on all men

 

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came on all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came on all men to justification of life.

 

Robert - you are preaching the 1888 message! The church rejected then; will it ever accept it? 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

I believe all sinned, and hence all are sinners, NOT born sinners.

You mean not born transgressors?  You can be a sinner, but not a transgressor. Transgression requires a knowledge of the law either explicitly or implicitly. 

[Robert]

2 hours ago, APL said:

Robert - you are preaching the 1888 message! The church rejected then; will it ever accept it? 

The gospel (i.e., "the in Christ motif") will cause a shaking.  

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Again, Adam sinned despite NOT having sin nature. And that disproves Robert's statement that man sins because of sin nature.

Two humans, Adam & Eve, sinned without having a fallen nature.  Everyone else (zillions?) sin because of their natures.  

Now, let's explore how Adam & Eve sinned.

[Robert]

14 minutes ago, Robert said:

Two humans, Adam & Eve, sinned without having a fallen nature.  Everyone else (zillions?) sin because of their natures.  

Now, let's explore how Adam & Eve sinned.

Let's start with this a statement from Paul (1 Tim 2:14)

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."

Adam wasn't deceived; therefore he transgressed a known command.  

Eve transgressed also, but in her case she was deceived into sin.

What command did they transgress?

"...The Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'” Gen 2:16,17 NKJV

Did Adam die the day he transgressed?  Yes & no.  

Yes, spiritually he died.  His agape, instead of going outward, took a u-turn towards self.  The Bible calls this iniquity.

No, Adam did not taste the 2nd death because Christ stepped in as the sinners' surety. 

More in a minute...

 

[Robert]

18 minutes ago, Robert said:

Let's start with this a statement from Paul (1 Tim 2:14)

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression."

Adam wasn't deceived; therefore he transgressed a known command.  

Eve transgressed also, but in her case she was deceived into sin.

What command did they transgress?

"...The Lord God commanded the man, saying, 'Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.'” Gen 2:16,17 NKJV

Did Adam die the day he transgressed?  Yes & no.  

Yes, spiritually he died.  His agape, instead of going outward, took a u-turn towards self.  The Bible calls this iniquity.

No, Adam did not taste the 2nd death because Christ stepped in as the sinners' surety. 

More in a minute...

Quote

 

Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”

2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden; 3 but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”

4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.

 

Now of course serpent's do not talk.  Satan was using the serpent as a medium.  Can you image what went through Eve's mind?  

From Eve's point of view the fruit of the tree was harmless.  In fact it could make one very wise, like God. If this serpent could talk after eating its fruit, image the possibilities?  Why was God holding back? This is how Eve was deceived; she distrusted God.  

Where she made her mistake was listening to the enemy of souls.  Deception was inevitable, but Eve did not sin highhandedly.  She was deceived into sin.

[Robert]

11 minutes ago, Robert said:

Now of course serpent's do not talk.  Satan was using the serpent as a medium.  Can you image what went through Eve's mind?  

From Eve's point of view the fruit of the tree was harmless.  In fact it could make one very wise, like God. If this serpent could talk after eating its fruit, image the possibilities?  Why was God holding back? This is how Eve was deceived; she distrusted God.  

Where she made her mistake was listening to the enemy of souls.  Deception was inevitable, but Eve did not sin highhandedly.  She was deceived into sin.

But Adam knowingly sinned. Why?  The Bible doesn't say, but I can speculate.

Adam loved Eve with agape love.  That means that Adam loved Eve more than himself because agape, by definition,  has no self in it.

When Eve sinned Adam chose to die with her because of his agape love towards her, but in so doing he turned his back on God.  Therefore "human perfection failed in Eden, the paradise of bliss." 

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

Sorry, but incorrect. There is no "we" in Col 1:21-23 but "you" and is referring to Colossians (and hence to us) as individuals.

Yes, Paul is writing to the Colossians and yes he was writing to individuals.  Let's read it:

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith....

How did Christ reconcile the Colossians (and hence us) as individuals?  "In the body of His flesh".  What happened in the humanity of Christ?

Romans 7:4 "You also died to the law through the body of Christ"

Did "you" the individual die the demands of the law, i.e., the 2nd death? No, if you did we wouldn't be having this conversation because you would be dead!

Then what died?  Your corporate fallen life from Adam. 

Christ as God assumed your life from Adam (one that we all share) and therefore when He died, your corporate life died also. 

[Robert]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

Yes, Paul is writing to the Colossians and yes he was writing to individuals.  Let's read it:

Col 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith....

Point # 2

Are you holy and blameless?

Then what is Christ, our Great High Priest, presenting before God and His holy law that is "holy and blameless"?

Answer:  "...We have known Christ according to the flesh (Greek: Sarx), yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new." 2 Cor 5:16,17 NKJV

Before Christ's death the disciples knew Christ according to the flesh, i.e., they knew that He "was born of a woman" and that He had assumed our fallen, corporate life.  But after the resurrection they didn't know Christ according to our fallen life?  Why?  Christ was raised with a glorified, sinless, corporate humanity free from indwelling sin and mortality. That's because "in Christ" we have a "new creation".  This "new creation" is what stands "holy and blameless" in Christ before God and His holy law.  In Him we are complete. 

 

[Robert]

13 minutes ago, Robert said:

Point # 2

Are you holy and blameless?

Let's examine an EGW statement:

 

Quote

The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their filthy garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God (i.e, to commit apostasy).

Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them."

But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." [P&K 588]

Apparently, God's people are not holy and blameless. Only "in Christ" are we complete.

[Samie]

Hi Robert,

Your explanations failed to include WHAT God Himself did that same day to restore man to his pre-fall status, an act that cost Him His Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. That act caused all of Adam's descendants to be born spiritually alive In Christ.

[Gerr]

ESV | ‎Je 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it? 

ESV | ‎Ro 3:10 as it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one;  ‎11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.  ‎12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”  ‎13 “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.”  ‎14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”  ‎15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;  ‎16 in their paths are ruin and misery,  ‎17 and the way of peace they have not known.”  ‎18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.” 

[Robert]

9 hours ago, Samie said:

Hi Robert,

Your explanations failed to include WHAT God Himself did that same day to restore man to his pre-fall status, an act that cost Him His Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world.

I did mention this: " Adam did not taste the 2nd death because Christ stepped in as the sinners' surety."

Quote

That act caused all of Adam's descendants to be born spiritually alive In Christ.

You are confusing our position in Christ and our position in Adam.

We are children of fallen Adam.  Hence, we were "sinful at birth" (Ps 51:5)

But Christ, by assuming our corporate humanity, rewrote our history. Hence in Him we have a sinless, glorified humanity that was made spiritually alive at Christ's resurrection.  We receive this glorified humanity at the 2nd coming.