Are people basically good?

[Robert]

37 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

Right. So you already have a particular answer in mind to your question.

That's fair enough, I guess, but it means this thread ends up as a sermon, not a conversation.

Sermon?  No...

But of course I have an answer just as you think you have an answer - only your answer isn't based on the Scriptures as far as I can tell.

[Robert]

David, I asked the following:  

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Can man produce agape without God's Spirit dwelling in him?"

You replied:

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'Yes'. Perhaps not to the standard of absolute pure selflessness....

Well, the standard is the moral law.  As Paul states, "the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'” [Gal 5:14]

Notice there are not two commands: 1] love your neighbor and 2] love yourself.  

That's because we were born with self-love.  Instead the law demands we "deny self" and bend out this u-turn agape so that we live for others with no thoughts of self. Failure to do so results in the curse (God abandonment or the second death).

 

[Robert]

8 hours ago, Aubrey said:

I guess that's impossible to know...if we believe that God's Spirit is capable of dwelling within any man.

Romans 8:9 "the Spirit of God lives in you; if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ."

So "yes" God's Spirit lives in the inner mind (our spirit). Without God's Spirit men can do nothing but sin.  That's because sin is anything outside agape and fallen mankind does not have agape by birth.  So the only way to experience agape is through faith in Christ.  Let's look at this:

First, the good news: "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you." [John 15:3]

This means that "in Christ" the believer already stands perfect now and in the judgement.  He is complete in Him.

Now if the believer is resting in the finished work of Christ then he is to remain in Him by faith.  What happens when the believer does this?

Verse 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 

If Christ lives in the believer, through the Spirit, then that believer will "bear much fruit".  Without Christ no one can bear fruit based on agape.

[Bravus]

I'm not so sure I do have an answer. At least, not to your question since, as I have pointed out, your question is circular: "Is it possible to do X while doing not-X?" No, it's not possible, by simple basic logic.

But the question "Are people basically good?" is, IMO, much more interesting than that. It would be fun to discuss.

[Tom Wetmore]

Salvation is apparently securely password protected and encrypted.  Too bad if you didn't get the key...

[Samie]

12 hours ago, Robert said:

We have a glorified humanity in Christ who is in heaven.  

Eph 2:6 "God raised us (our sinless, glorified corporate life) up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus..."

Now, are you in heaven? If not then this isn't speaking about your old life from Adam. Samie, we are sinners falling short of the glory of God.  We are righteous in Christ by faith, not in reality.  We receive this glorified life at the 2nd coming.

Paul was not physically with Christ hanging on the cross, yet he said he was crucified with Christ. Did you soon forget that spiritual things are spiritually discerned?

[Samie]

10 hours ago, Robert said:

Well, the standard is the moral law.  As Paul states, "the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.'” [Gal 5:14]

Notice there are not two commands: 1] love your neighbor and 2] love yourself.  

That's because we were born with self-love.  Instead the law demands we "deny self" and bend out this u-turn agape so that we live for others with no thoughts of self. Failure to do so results in the curse (God abandonment or the second death).

Was there one or were there two? Let's consult Jesus:

Quote

 

KJV Matthew 22:36-40  

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 

38 This is the first and great commandment. 

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

Looks like there were two.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, David Geelan said:

I'm not so sure I do have an answer. At least, not to your question since, as I have pointed out, your question is circular: "Is it possible to do X while doing not-X?" No, it's not possible, by simple basic logic.

But the question "Are people basically good?" is, IMO, much more interesting than that. It would be fun to discuss.

People are born In Christ, hence, they are basically good. Just like Adam. He came out good from the hands of His Maker. As Solomon put it, "God made man upright".

[Samie]

27 minutes ago, Tom Wetmore said:

Salvation is apparently securely password protected and encrypted.  Too bad if you didn't get the key...

Jesus has already encoded the encrypted password into the log in box and had hit the <Enter> key.

Now, am I going to properly use His laptop?

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Tom Wetmore said:

Salvation is apparently securely password protected and encrypted.  Too bad if you didn't get the key...

A true understanding of the sin problem is the only sure way of destroying all confidence in self and turning to Christ as our only righteousness, hope, and surety.  If men see themselves as good they will reject their need of Christ.

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

Paul was not physically with Christ hanging on the cross, yet he said he was crucified with Christ. Did you soon forget that spiritual things are spiritually discerned?

Paul's corporate life was "in Christ".  In fact not just Paul, but the whole human race.  "One died for all, and therefore all died." 2 Cor 5:14

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

People are born In Christ, hence, they are basically good.

Romans 3:11 “There is none righteous, not even one; ...12 There is none who does good, There is not even one.”

Matt 19:17 "there is none good but one, that is, God:"

 

[JoeMo]

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 4:21 AM, Samie said:

If indeed, man's nature after the fall has changed because God did nothing to forestall the change, neither must God hold people accountable for doing things in accordance with their evil nature because they could not do otherwise.

Man on his own cannot do otherwise.  That's why we need grace and a Savior.  God doesn't hold His people (those who have put their faith in Christ) accountable because Christ has already been held accountable on their behalf.

On ‎5‎/‎10‎/‎2016 at 4:21 AM, Samie said:

But God forestalled the change and instead reinstated man to his pre-fall Godly state, an act that cost Him His only begotten Son. Hence, people are accountable for not overcoming evil with good because born already In Christ, they have His Power to overcome evil.

Only those who put their faith and trust in Christ have His Power to overcome evil.  No one is able to do this under his own power - only in the power of Christ can we overcome.

[Raphael]

Ya. This can be dilemma. On one hand scriptures say to be selfless.. Then another occasion says what's the point saving the whole world if still ending loosing one soul?

I think it's ok to agree that salvation in the end is also for our own interests.. "there's a path that men think leads to life, instead leads to death".. Now what Bible verse was that.. Cause wanting to stay alive and not dead is a personal interest too.. The only differing thing is that we are following the big picture of faith, obedience, and all righteous practices in our God.. So it's a set menu.. Can't order individual separate dishes.. Ya?

[Raphael]

Ya. This can be dilemma. On one hand scriptures say to be selfless.. Then another occasion says what's the point saving the whole world if still ending loosing one soul?

I think it's ok to agree that salvation in the end is also for our own interests.. "there's a path that men think leads to life, instead leads to death".. Now what Bible verse was that.. 

Cause wanting to stay alive and not dead is a personal interest too.. The only differing thing is that we are following the big picture of faith, obedience, and all righteous practices in our God.. So it's a set menu.. Can't order individual separate dishes.. Ya?

There's another Bible parable of the man who found the most precious pearl and sold all he had to obtain this pearl.. And thus is the heaven awaiting as well.. And so on with the story..

[Bravus]

13 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Man on his own cannot do otherwise.  That's why we need grace and a Savior.  God doesn't hold His people (those who have put their faith in Christ) accountable because Christ has already been held accountable on their behalf.

Only those who put their faith and trust in Christ have His Power to overcome evil.  No one is able to do this under his own power - only in the power of Christ can we overcome.

But that's just not true. People who are not Christians are not evil.

Only by defining evil specifically as being not-Christian can we then say that it is necessary to be Christian to be not-evil.

[Robert]

2 hours ago, David Geelan said:

But that's just not true. People who are not Christians are not evil....

Luke 11:11“Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

When you think of Hitler you think of evil, right?  However the Scriptures views our self-love as the root cause of all evil.

When someone commits adultery what's the motive?  I love myself.  What's the motive behind theft?  I love me and I'll take your stuff. Everything we do without Christ is based on the love of self, which to God is evil.  Anything outside agape is sin.

 

[JoeMo]

3 hours ago, David Geelan said:

But that's just not true. People who are not Christians are not evil.

Only by defining evil specifically as being not-Christian can we then say that it is necessary to be Christian to be not-evil.

Maybe I wasn't clear.  Non-Christian does NOT equal evil.  All people (Christian and non-Christian) have fallen short of God's standards.  Does that mean they are evil?  Probably not by relative human standards; but by God's absolute standards - I think yes.  In that sense it is my belief that we all need a Savior to make it into the Kingdom.  I thank and praise God that His love for us exceeds His distaste of our sins - so much so that He gave His one and only Divine Son to suffer the consequences of my sin - "evil" - so I don't have to.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

When someone commits adultery what's the motive?  I love myself.  What's the motive behind theft?  I love me and I'll take your stuff.

Maybe in some cases; but in others, adultery is simply self-destructive behavior (I guess it's ALWAYS self-destructive); because people have no respect for themselves (love of self); and are therefore incapable of truly loving others.  Some people steal out of desperation - to keep their family alive.

I have to admit that if I am in a situation where it's a choice between me or my family being hurt or my adversary getting hurt, I'm gonna pick my adversary getting hurt every time.  Does that make me selfish and devoid of agape love?

[Robert]

49 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Does that mean they are evil?  Probably not by relative human standards; but by God's absolute standards - I think yes. 

That's the issue....God's standard is His love, agape. 

[JoeMo]

7 hours ago, Raphael said:

I think it's ok to agree that salvation in the end is also for our own interests.. "there's a path that men think leads to life, instead leads to death".. Now what Bible verse was that.. 

Hi Raphael,

This verse is Proverbs 14:12 and Proverbs 16:25.  It must be important to be said twice in the same book!

[Robert]

4 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

adultery is simply self-destructive behavior 

Adultery is having sex with another's spouse.  It's all about selfishness (i.e., self-love).

[Robert]

17 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Some people steal out of desperation - to keep their family alive.

Yes, and what makes their family more important than another's?  That's the problem with our love of self.  We love our own because they are part of us.  That's just another form of self-love.  Luke writes about this:

Luke 6:7 “But to you who are listening I say: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone slaps you on one cheek, turn to them the other also. If someone takes your coat, do not withhold your shirt from them. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full.35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. 

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

Adultery is having sex with another's spouse.  It's all about selfishness (i.e., self-love).

Yeah; that's probably true most of the time.  I would imagine the after-effects of adultery is having a lot less self-love once one realizes how stupid and wrong it was.  But somehow people do justify it in the opportunistic moment, or else they wouldn't do it.  Probably the desire for selfish satisfaction drowning out the conscience (self-love).

Taking it another step, what about marrying the person we love - is that out of self-love?  We tend to marry a person who meets our needs, not just a person who needs us to meet their own needs.

[Samie]

The dilemma of most preachers is that they consider people born dead in sin yet expect them to do what only the spiritually alive can do: believe. Not unlike telling the unconscious to go see the doctor and be revived. What is amazing is they seemed to have not noticed the similarity or maybe just ignoring it.

These preachers believe God is love. Yet they are preaching that as if the God of love just folded His hands and watched Adam's nature change from good to bad without doing anything to forestall the change. Is that agape love? Why would Christ be called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world had the Father not intervened in the fall of man and cost Him His only begotten Son? Oh, Augustine, see what you have done!