Are people basically good?

[JoeMo]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

Yes, and what makes their family more important than another's?  That's the problem with our love of self.  We love our own because they are part of us.  That's just another form of self-love.

While admitting that stealing is wrong, are you saying that caring for those we love (and who depend on us) is evil?

[Samie]

20 hours ago, Robert said:

Paul's corporate life was "in Christ".  In fact not just Paul, but the whole human race.  "One died for all, and therefore all died." 2 Cor 5:14

That's why I am wondering why you believe all died with Christ and made alive together with Him yet you teach that people are born spiritually dead in sin. Is that not double-talk? If we died with Christ, then we are His Body. If we are already In Him at His death and In Him at His resurrection, why would we be not In Him when we are physically born?

[Robert]

4 minutes ago, Samie said:

 Is that not double-talk?

Samie, you need to differentiate between you the individual and your corporate life.

[Robert]

At its very best, human love is self-seeking.  Since we are by nature egocentric, everything we do or think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness.  Socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, even religiously, we are all slaves to “our own way” [Isaiah 53:6; cf. Philippians 2:21].  We are all shaped in “iniquity”; that is, we are bent toward self.  Consequently, we all, without exception, fall short of God’s glory, His agape love [see Romans 3:23]. [JS]

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, Robert said:

Samie, you need to differentiate between you the individual and your corporate life.

Where is that in the Bible, please?

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

 We are all shaped in “iniquity”; that is, we are bent toward self.  Consequently, we all, without exception, fall short of God’s glory, His agape love [see Romans 3:23]. [JS]

Shaped in iniquity but sanctified before birth.

[Robert]

Just now, Samie said:

Where is that in the Bible, please?

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ...the life I now live in the flesh"

If Paul died in Christ then how could he have been alive in the flesh? 

 

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

Shaped in iniquity but sanctified before birth.

You're getting yourself confused, Samie....

[Samie]

Just now, Robert said:

Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ...the life I now live in the flesh"

If Paul died in Christ then how could he have been alive in the flesh? 

 

He was made alive together with Him when He resurrected.

[Samie]

And where's the verse for corporate life?

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

You're getting yourself confused, Samie....

Me, confused? Is believing in the Father's words getting confused?

[Robert]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

He was made alive together with Him when He resurrected.

Samie, you really need to  differentiate between you the individual and your corporate life.

[Robert]

Just now, Samie said:

Me, confused? Is believing in the Father's words getting confused?

Look, I don't mean this in hurtful way, but you are getting a bit confused here....

You (Samie) the individual did not die in Christ. For starters Christ died over 2000 years ago.  Then what died?  That's the question!

[Samie]

1 minute ago, Robert said:

Samie, you really need to  differentiate between you the individual and your corporate life.

I insist on my request, where is corporate life in the Bible?

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, Samie said:

I insist on my request, where is corporate life in the Bible?

I ask because I want to know what does the Bible mean by corporate life.

[Samie]

double post deleted.

[Samie]

It's past midnight from where I am. So goodnight.

[Robert]

[Robert]

4 minutes ago, Samie said:

I ask because I want to know what does the Bible mean by corporate life.

The phrase "corporate life" is a theological term. What does it mean?  It means the life we share with Adam.  We are simply the multiplication of his fallen life. Even Eve came from Adam.

[Samie]

So it is not a Biblical term. Thanks.

If corporate life is the life we share with Adam, who determined or caused people's sharing with the fallen nature of Adam? We ourselves? I don't think so. If I were to decide, I refuse to share with Adam's fallen nature. Was it God Who caused it? Why would He when He is agape love? It just naturally occured and God just watched and did nothing?

It appears that your doctrine of corporate life is not much unlike Augustine's doctrine of original sin. Same dog, different collar. And both, unbiblical for me, thus far.

Ezekiel 18:20  The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son.

For Paul, instead of in Adam, it is in God through Christ that we live and move and have our being. Acts 17:28

Again, for me, right on that day Adam sinned, God forestalled the change of Adam's nature from good to bad, an act that cost Him His Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Bravus]

The case of when someone 'sins' is only one way of thinking about it. What about when someone does something good? When a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Zorostrian or atheist shows self-sacrificing love to help a stranger?

Peace is more than the absence of war, being morally good is more than the absence of being morally bad.

I think part of the confusion in this thread is confusing 'being morally good' with 'salvation'.

In the kind of Christian philosophy being espoused here, it is necessary to believe in Christ to be saved, but not in order to be morally good. Leave aside the issue that that means people can be morally good and still be lost.

The initial question is 'Are people basically good?' That is a completely different question from 'will everyone be saved?'

[JoeMo]

6 hours ago, Robert said:

You (Samie) the individual did not die in Christ. For starters Christ died over 2000 years ago.  Then what died?  That's the question!

I disagree. " For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body ruled by sin might be done away with,^[a] that we should no longer be slaves to sin— ⁷ because anyone who has died has been set free from sin.  Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him."  (Rom. 6:6-8)

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

So it is not a Biblical term. Thanks.

That, in itself, means nothing.  Legalism is not a Biblical term, but it's the same as the phrase "works of the law".  And what Christ does in us the Bible calls sanctification, but theologians typically call it "the imparted righteousness of Christ".

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

If corporate life is the life we share with Adam, who determined or caused people's sharing with the fallen nature of Adam?

Adam.

Rom 5:18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men....19 For as through the one man’s disobedience (Adam's) the many were made sinners

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

It appears that your doctrine of corporate life is not much unlike Augustine's doctrine of original sin. Same dog, different collar. And both, unbiblical for me, thus far.

No, Augustine stated that all men were born guilty of Adam's transgression.  I have never said that.  You need to carefully re-read what I've stated.  Thanks