Are people basically good?

[Gerr]

14 hours ago, Samie said:

Hi Robert,

Your explanations failed to include WHAT God Himself did that same day to restore man to his pre-fall status, an act that cost Him His Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. That act caused all of Adam's descendants to be born spiritually alive In Christ.

Are you saying that Adam & Eve were born spiritually alive the moment they sinned and died spiritually?

[joeb]

Robert,

Sometimes I wonder at your understanding.... 

Jesus spent 30 years preparing for 3 years of ministry.  He was home schooled by His mother and was capable of great concentration and had great depth of mind as demonstrated by His ability to confound the educators of His day by the age of 12 with His depth of understanding of the Torah.  Without that education and personal development Jesus could not have fulfilled His mission for His Father.  Jesus was also a craftsman even before He reached adulthood. He took His own advice, "whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with all thy might".  How can I say these things?  Because Ellen White says explicitly that he studied carpentry under Joseph and willingly developed skills in that craft.  He earned His living as a carpenter until He began His ministry. 

Jesus is to be our example in all things, and Jesus developed the talents He was given at birth.  All of that development was used in His ministry.  You say, How could learning carpentry benefit His ministry?  Because to become a skillful carpenter and produce good work takes great patience and attention to detail, especially working with nothing but hand tools as Jesus did.  Jesus demonstrated those attributes daily in His ministry.  Those carpentry skills also gave Him great confidence in His ability to solve problems for every good carpenter must have good problem solving skills and confidence is only gained in this area by learning to solve problems of all kinds.

The fact that you seem to think Christians ought to be ignorant louts incapable of reasoning, having no education, no skills to support themselves and earn enough to not only support themselves but be able to contribute to the welfare of others says your understanding of the life of Christ is sadly lacking. 

Study what Ellen White has to say on the childhood and the pre-ministry life of Christ.  You will find that she says that part of His life is our example in self-development to enable us to fit ourselves for God's service.  

[LifeHiscost]

 

At the  bottom of the web page: " http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/05/06/frozen_produce_recall_expanded.html ", can be found the news clips as listed below.  If you'll look at the one entitled "Disgraced Evangelists" you'll get a good view of why the answer is no for many.

…3While Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will all this happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”.....Matthew 24

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Rachel E. Gross is a Slate editorial assistant. 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!

 

 

 

 

Slate

 

 

[Robert]

9 hours ago, joeb said:

Robert,Sometimes I wonder at your understanding.... 

My understanding?  I am simply defining "agape" according to the Bible.  "Love [agape]...is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5.  Anything outside "agape" is therefore sin.  Do you disagree?

Quote

Jesus spent 30 years preparing for 3 years of ministry.  He was home schooled by His mother and was capable of great concentration and had great depth of mind as demonstrated by His ability to confound the educators of His day by the age of 12 with His depth of understanding of the Torah.  Without that education and personal development Jesus could not have fulfilled His mission for His Father.   

Yes, that's because Christ set aside the independent use of His Deity and united Himself to our humanity.  Hence He became one of us and lived in our shoes and therefore, like all of us, needed an education. But, He did not use His education to advance Himself as most, if not all of us, do.

Since you mentioned EGW, here's a statement from her on true education:

"What is the trend of the education given? To what motive is appeal most often made? To self-seeking. Much of the education given is a perversion of the name. In true education the selfish ambition, the greed for power, the disregard for the rights and needs of humanity, that are the curse of our world, find a counterinfluence." [Education and Character 225,226].

Quote

The fact that you seem to think Christians ought to be ignorant louts incapable of reasoning, having no education, no skills to support themselves and earn enough to not only support themselves but be able to contribute to the welfare of others says your understanding of the life of Christ is sadly lacking. 

Was Christ educated?  Yes.  So how is God or His law against education?  What the law is against is using that education to promote self-wealth (see 1 Cor 10:24*)  Educating oneself for gain is, according to the law, self-seeking.  Here all of us fall short of God's agape.  That's my point.

 * "Let no man seek his own (wealth), but every man another’s wealth."

 

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, Robert said:

 What the law is against is using that education to promote self-wealth (see 1 Cor 10:24*)  Educating oneself for gain is, according to the law, self-seeking.  Here all of us fall short of God's agape.  That's my point.

 * "Let no man seek his own (wealth), but every man another’s wealth."

1 Tim 6:7 For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing, we will be content with that.  9 Those who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge people into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, eager for money, have wandered from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

[Bravus]

{lost in the hall of mirrors}

[Gail]

11 minutes ago, David Geelan said:

{lost in the hall of mirrors}

[Robert]

11 hours ago, David Geelan said:

{lost in the hall of mirrors}

Human love, at its very best is self-seeking. We are by nature egocentric and therefore everything we do and think, in and of ourselves, is polluted with self-love or selfishness.  Hence man’s love is always trying to ascend, whether it be socially, politically, academically, materially, economically, or even religiously; we are all slaves to our “own way” [Isaiah 53:6; Philippians 2:21]. We are all shaped in “iniquity” (bent to self).  Consequently all of us, without exception, are coming short of God’s glory or agape love [Romans 3:23].

[Samie]

On 15/05/2016 at 5:42 AM, Robert said:

I did mention this: " Adam did not taste the 2nd death because Christ stepped in as the sinners' surety."

Yes, you did. BUT your time frame of God's stepping in through Christ is 4000 years AFTER Adam sinned. The Biblical time frame of God's stepping in through Christ is right on the same day Adam sinned. That explains why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Your 4000-year gap explains why you believe people are first in Adam BEFORE they are in Christ. 

But God's intervention that same day Adam sinned reinstated Adam to his pre-fall status by transforming him In Christ. Hence, Adam was already In Christ when his descendants were all born. Adam' s status In Christ made all his descendants to be born already In Christ because they were all born when Adam was already In Christ.

[Samie]

On 16/05/2016 at 10:17 AM, Gerry Cabalo said:

Are you saying that Adam & Eve were born spiritually alive the moment they sinned and died spiritually?

They were transformed In Christ when God slew that Lamb Whose skin He fashioned into the covering of their naked body. No wonder, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Adam and Eve and all their descendants are only spiritually alive In Christ.

[Bravus]

Jesus talked about becoming like a child. I don't think a child could work through all these complex arguments... therefore these complex arguments are not necessary for salvation.

(Therefore the arguments themselves are a form of self-seeking, in seeking to 'win' by being more correct than another person.)

The sentence is brackets is optional: I'm not here to judge or condemn, do whatever you want. But I'll stick with simplicity.

[Samie]

Our salvation is entirely dependent upon God and NOT upon our understanding or non-understanding of theological issues. This is why my position had always been our being in Christ is through what God has done for us through Christ; whether one knows this or not, or whether one believes in this or not. And whether we remain In Christ or get dismembered from His Body is entirely dependent on whether God will judge us as overcomers or not. And whether one knows this or not does not play any role in his being judged by God as being an overcomer or not. Only God knows why He judges one as an overcomer or not. And only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally make it to the heavenly portals. And Christ Himself assures us that overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

[Stan]

It has been said most people are good,  until you get them behind a keyboard or a steering wheel.

[Robert]

12 hours ago, Samie said:

They were transformed In Christ when God slew that Lamb Whose skin He fashioned into the covering of their naked body. No wonder, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Adam and Eve and all their descendants are only spiritually alive In Christ.

The Bible doesn't teach this.  IF all men are born spiritually alive then all men are holy and blameless.  

 

[Robert]

11 hours ago, David Geelan said:

Jesus talked about becoming like a child. I don't think a child could work through all these complex arguments... therefore these complex arguments are not necessary for salvation.

What Christ is referring to is how children tend to trust and believe.  

Quote

But I'll stick with simplicity.

When it comes to the creation story you don't stick with simplicity.  Just saying...

[Robert]

Romans 10:17 So then faith (i.e, trust) comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

[Samie]

20 hours ago, Samie said:

They were transformed In Christ when God slew that Lamb Whose skin He fashioned into the covering of their naked body. No wonder, Christ is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. Adam and Eve and all their descendants are only spiritually alive In Christ.

 

8 hours ago, Robert said:

The Bible doesn't teach this.  IF all men are born spiritually alive then all men are holy and blameless.

All men are holy and perfect, because God has made us holy and perfect - hence, blameless - through Christ.

Quote

NIV Hebrews 10:10, 14  

10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

14 because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy.

In Christ, we all are holy and perfect. Being part of His Body, we all are heaven-bound UNTIL one's name is blotted out from the book of life. And Christ Himself assures us that overcomers will not be blotted out from it (Rev 3:5).

[Robert]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

In Christ, we all are holy and perfect. 

Yes, that's in Christ and He is in heaven.  Are you?

You are confused between our position in Adam vs our corporate position in Christ.

Yes, "in Christ" I by faith have a glorified life residing in the last Adam (Christ), but I do not receive this life until the 2nd coming.  In the meantime I am a sinner saved by grace.  You and I are neither holy or blameless in ourselves. Who are you kidding?

[Samie]

6 minutes ago, Robert said:

Yes, that's in Christ and He is in heaven.  Are you?

You are confused between our position in Adam vs our corporate position in Christ.

Yes, "in Christ" I by faith have a glorified life residing in the last Adam (Christ), but I do not receive this life until the 2nd coming.  In the meantime I am a sinner saved by grace.  You and I are neither holy or blameless in ourselves. Who are you kidding?

The Bible is not kidding. It EXPLICITLY says so. I have given the verses. You believe what the Bible says, don't you?

[Robert]

8 minutes ago, Samie said:

The Bible is not kidding. It EXPLICITLY says so. I have given the verses. You believe what the Bible says, don't you?

Yes, and you aren't using them appropriately.  You are twisting them out of context.  

Referring to the resurrection of Christ, Paul says:

"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus..." Eph 2:6

The "us" here is our glorified, corporate humanity.  It's not you and me as individuals.  If it were then we would be in heaven. 

[Samie]

14 minutes ago, Robert said:

Yes, and you aren't using them appropriately.  You are twisting them out of context.  

Referring to the resurrection of Christ, Paul says:

"And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus..." Eph 2:6

The "us" here is our glorified, corporate humanity.  It's not you and me as individuals.  If it were then we would be in heaven. 

We were not even around when God chose us BEFORE time began. How is that compared with us with Him in heaven while we are on earth?

[Samie]

And Robert, I want to hear your comment on why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

[Samie]

Just now, Samie said:

And Robert, I want to hear your comment on why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I have already for many times posted mine. Here's one.

[JoeMo]

On ‎5‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 11:46 AM, Robert said:

I ask this because from my perspective at least 50% of the folks on CA fall into two categories: liberal or legalistic....

I would say closer to 100% fall into one of those 2 categories; but the "bright line" between liberal and legalistic is kind of blurry and is a relative thing.  If you are more "open- minded" than me, you are a liberal.  If you are more "closed-minded" than me, you are a legalist.

I don't know where to place you, Robert.  To me, you are kind of a one-trick pony.  It seems like you are preoccupied with "agape" (although that preoccupation sometimes seems to get posted with less than "agape" love).  Maybe it's just me, but I think there are other aspects to Christianity than unconditionally loving absolutely everyone more than I love myself; or that everything we do for ourselves (like eat, drink, buy stuff, etc.) is all that evil.

That being said, love of God and neighbor should be a major part of our core motivation for doing stuff.  But I confess that I don't do everything like drive my car carefully or play "nice" at work) solely out of a motivation of love for others.  Some stuff I do to keep myself out of trouble or harm's way.

[Stan]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I would say closer to 100% fall into one of those 2 categories; but the "bright line" between liberal and legalistic is kind of blurry and is a relative thing.  If you are more "open- minded" than me, you are a liberal.  If you are more "closed-minded" than me, you are a legalist.

I don't know where to place you, Robert.  To me, you are kind of a one-trick pony.  It seems like you are preoccupied with "agape" (although that preoccupation sometimes seems to get posted with less than "agape" love).  Maybe it's just me, but I think there are other aspects to Christianity than unconditionally loving absolutely everyone more than I love myself; or that everything we do for ourselves (like eat, drink, buy stuff, etc.) is all that evil.

That being said, love of God and neighbor should be a major part of our core motivation for doing stuff.  But I confess that I don't do everything like drive my car carefully or play "nice" at work) solely out of a motivation of love for others.  Some stuff I do to keep myself out of trouble or harm's way.

I disagree. 

 

i am not Conservative

i am not Liberal 

 

 

What I am is ADVENTIST 

 

that is just how it is.