Did God Implement the Plan of Redemption the Day Adam Sinned?

[Samie]

Everyone in this forum believes God is love. And He is, no doubt. But it appears that many believe that when Adam sinned, God just watched as Adam's nature changed from good to bad and God did NOTHING that same day to forestall the change.

Am just curious whether there are in this forum those who believe that the God of love implemented the plan of redemption right on the same day Adam sinned.  To start with, I am one.

[Robert]

God knew Lucifer would invent iniquity and become the adversary of God, but He created him anyway.  The question is why? 

 

[CoAspen]

I say plan 'B' was always available.

[Robert]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Everyone in this forum believes God is love. And He is, no doubt. But it appears that many believe that when Adam sinned, God just watched as Adam's nature changed from good to bad and God did NOTHING that same day to forestall the change.

God didn't just watch Adam's nature change.  Adam's nature changed the moment God's Spirit vacated Adam's spirit.  In this vacuum Satan imbued Adam with the principle of "self" as opposed to God's selfless agape love.  

Why did God's Spirit leave?  Because agape doesn't force.

[Samie]

17 hours ago, Robert said:

God didn't just watch Adam's nature change.

So, as per your theology, what did God do to save Adam that same day he sinned?

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

So, as per your theology, what did God do to save Adam that same day he sinned?

Adam is dead and gone.  He is part of the earth.  He has returned to dust.  Adam's only hope is the truth as it is "in Christ". 

[stinsonmarri]

21 hours ago, Robert said:

God knew Lucifer would invent iniquity and become the adversary of God, but He created him anyway.  The question is why? 

Also the Topic by Samie: Did ELOHIM implement the Plan of Redemption the day Adam sinned?

Bless YAHWEH, ye his angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Psa 103:20 

Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting.

We as Adventist was giving a renewal of what YAHWEH gave to the Canaanites, and Israel. Each time HE presented more of HIS WISDOM for to understand the true Plan of Salvation through the Plan of Redemption and they both work. HE told Daniel that knowledge would increase also to understand these two plans with the intent for the Advent people would continue to study HIS Word for a complete understanding of Salvation. We unfortunately are stuck in the Middle Ages in some of our thoughts. We do not understand what was given in Genesis!

 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. Gen 2:1

We only think of the earth when we forget the Heavens and then the earth.

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by HIS SON, whom HE hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also HE made the worlds; Heb 1:2

We do not read EGW EW p.220, 221 that words have been changed in the Bible. We first must understand that Satan, nor his angels were kicked down on this earth. Also Satan was kicked out before this earth was even made!

It was the highest crime to rebel against the Government of ELOHIM. All Heaven seemed in commotion. The angels were marshaled in companies, each division with a higher commanding angel at their head. Satan was warring against the Law of ELOHIM, because ambitious to exalt himself, and unwilling to submit to the authority of ELOHIM'S SON, Heaven's GREAT COMMANDER. 

But no provision had been made to save those who should venture to transgress his law. . .

The Father consulted YAHSHUA in regard to at once carrying out their purpose to make man to inhabit the earth. He would place man upon probation to test his loyalty, before he could be rendered eternally secure. 1SP 22

Even EGW did not fully understand that their have always been a provision made should one venture to transgress HIS Law. The Sanctuary was made first for that very provision and then the angels. Then other worlds before us!

The MASTER has given me a view of other worlds. Wings were given me, and an angel attended me from the city to a place that was bright and glorious. The grass of the place was living green, and the birds there warbled a sweet song. The inhabitants of the place were of all sizes; they were noble, majestic, and lovely. They bore the express image of YAHSHUA, and their countenances beamed with holy joy, expressive of the freedom and happiness of the place. I asked one of them why they were so much more lovely than those on the earth. The reply was, “We have lived in strict obedience to the Commandments of ELOHIM, and have not fallen by disobedience, like those on the earth.” Then I saw two trees, one looked much like the tree of life in the city. The fruit of both looked beautiful, but of one they could not eat. They had power to eat of both, but were forbidden to eat of one. Then my attending angel said to me, “None in this place have tasted of the forbidden tree; but if they should eat, they would fall.”  EW 39

You see we don't even realize that THE THREE SPIRITUAL BEINGS work together as ONE, that is what the Hebrew word means. The same was said by Adam that he and the woman was on flesh. That is why we do not realize that the Sanctuary was made first and then the angels. ELOHIM made all beings to have choice and to obey THE FATHER'S Commandments out of love.

Bless YAHWEH, ye HIS angels, that excel in strength, that do his commandments, hearkening unto the voice of his word. Psa 103:20 

Satan was given enormous powers because of the work he was given. He was the covering angel before the Throne of ELOHIM! But as all free agents are tested so was the angels. Michael came up through ranks as HE had a lowly birth here on earth. Satan was the very one who moved HIM like we do here on earth with our solders. We are made in THEIR LIKENESS and IMAGE, so we act even as sinful as we are like THEM in many ways unaware. When Satan move YAHSHUA to the position of a cherub, he thought that he, Satan would move to be rewarded be an ELOHIM. However, When it was time to see if the angels could realize that MICHAEL was THE SON of ELOHIM. It was time for them to know what was hidden about HIS TRUE IDENTITY.

The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son. The Son was seated on the throne with the Father, and the heavenly throng of holy angels was gathered around them. The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that MICHAEL, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was as his own presence. The word of the Son was to be obeyed as readily as the word of the Father. His Son he had invested with authority to command the heavenly host. Especially was his Son to work in union with himself in the anticipated creation of the earth and every living thing that should exist upon the earth. His Son would carry out his will and his purposes, but would do nothing of himself alone. The Father's will would be fulfilled in him. 1SP 17.2

Satan was envious and jealous of MICHAEL. Yet when all the angels bowed to YAHSHUA to acknowledge his supremacy and high authority and rightful rule, Satan bowed with them; but his heart was filled with envy and hatred. MICHAEL had been taken into the special counsel of ELOHIM in regard to his plans, while Satan was unacquainted with them. He did not understand, neither was he permitted to know, the purposes of ELOHIM. But MICHAEL was acknowledged sovereign of Heaven, his power and authority to be the same as that of ELOHIM himself. Satan thought that he was himself a favorite in Heaven among the angels. He had been highly exalted; but this did not call forth from him gratitude and praise to his Creator(S). He aspired to the height of ELOHIM himself. He gloried in his loftiness. He knew that he was honored by the angels. He had a special mission to execute. He had been near the great Creator, and the ceaseless beams of glorious light enshrouding the eternal ELOHIM, had shown especially upon him. Satan thought how angels had obeyed his command with pleasurable alacrity. Were not his garments light and beautiful? Why should MICHAEL thus be honored before himself? 1SP 18.1

Man which include the woman both made the choice to sin. Adam could have sinned and the woman could have not sinned. They both had equal powers and it is time that Adventist should acknowledge this. Gen 1:27, 28

Satan tried throughout the universe to cause not only this earth, but all the worlds to sin. We are the only one that did by our own free choice.

Blessings!

[Gerr]

When did Adam & Eve need grace?  When does a swimmer need a rescuer or a life jacket?  When does an ambulance come to a house?

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Gerry Cabalo said:

When did Adam & Eve need grace?  When does a swimmer need a rescuer or a life jacket?  When does an ambulance come to a house?

As per Robert's theology, God did not save Adam the day he sinned.

Robert correctly describes God as agape BUT wrongly depicts Him as having just simply folded His hands and did NOTHING to save Adam the day he sinned. God sent the Ambulance down to earth 4000 years after Adam needed to be rescued. The Life Jacket was made available to Adam 4000 years AFTER he has drowned.

And sadly, this is the same theology majority of preachers teach.

[phkrause]

Samie, I believe that God already had a plan to save Adam, Eve and the rest of us. Didn't he show them that now they would have to kill an animal and sacrifice it for there sins?

[Samie]

48 minutes ago, phkrause said:

Samie, I believe that God already had a plan to save Adam, Eve and the rest of us. Didn't he show them that now they would have to kill an animal and sacrifice it for there sins?

Sciptures say the plan was devised BEFORE the foundation of the world, BEFORE time began. But it is one thing to have a plan, and another thing to implement the plan or not the moment the need for it arises.

I believe God implemented the plan and SAVED Adam the same day he sinned. That act cost Him His Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. That saving act of God through Christ revealed in the life, death, resurrection and high priestly ministry of our Lord in the heavenly sanctuary, caused all descendants of Adam to be born In Christ for no other name under heaven was given among men for salvation. Born In Christ, people are heaven-bound UNLESS God through Christ judges them as having been overcome of evil instead of overcoming it with good. Christ Himself assures us that overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life but will be seated with Him - Who is also an overcomer - in His throne.

Sadly, most preachers teach another gospel: that people are born spiritually dead in sin and UNLESS they first put into the basket their share of the deal - believe - they could not be saved. What is even amazing is these preachers not only defend to death that they are not preaching salvation by works but also fail to see that they require those they consider as spiritually dead in sin to do what the spiritually dead in sin can NEVER do: believe. Why can't the spiritually dead in sin believe? Because they are yet apart from Christ, and apart from Him Christ said man can do NOTHING.

[Robert]

23 minutes ago, Samie said:

...most preachers teach another gospel: that people are born spiritually dead in sin ....

Eph 2:1 And you (i.e., before conversion) were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked (past tense) according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 

Clearly before conversion we "were dead in trespasses and sins" because before conversion we "walked according to the course of this world" and indulged "the flesh and of the mind" and were by nature children under wrath.

Your argument is with Paul.

[Samie]

Just now, Robert said:

Eph 2:1 And you (i.e., before conversion) were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked (past tense) according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. 3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. 

Clearly before conversion we "were dead in trespasses and sins" because before conversion we "walked according to the course of this world" and indulged "the flesh and of the mind" and were by nature children under wrath.

Your argument is with Paul.

No. It's with you.

You correctly teach that God is agape. But your insinuation that God merely folded His hands and did NOTHING to save Adam the same day He sinned wrongly depicts our God of love. Even an earthly father will not just fold his hands and do nothing but watch while his child is drowning.

Paul was not saying people are born spiritually dead in sin. He was saying they were dead in sin in which they WALKED according to the course of this world, LIVED in the lusts of the flesh, INDULGED in the desires of flesh and mind. WALKING, LIVING, INDULGING are acts done AFTER birth. Not before or during birth.

[Samie]

47 minutes ago, Samie said:

Sadly, most preachers teach another gospel: that people are born spiritually dead in sin and UNLESS they first put into the basket their share of the deal - believe - they could not be saved. What is even amazing is these preachers not only defend to death that they are not preaching salvation by works but also fail to see that they require those they consider as spiritually dead in sin to do what the spiritually dead in sin can NEVER do: believe. Why can't the spiritually dead in sin believe? Because they are yet apart from Christ, and apart from Him Christ said man can do NOTHING.

Robert's theology reflects what is described above.

[Robert]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

Even an earthly father will not just fold his hands and do nothing but watch while his child is drowning.

God has allowed sin and all the terrible results of sin. Look around....

[Robert]

7 minutes ago, Samie said:

Paul was not saying people are born spiritually dead in sin. 

So we are born spiritual and then we became sinners?  Wow!  That's a new type of legalism.  In other words  I was born holy and if I had died then I wouldn't have needed the righteousness of Christ.  Talk about another gospel....

[Robert]

No fault of their own infants are born self-centered.  It's basic self-love....That's how we are born.

[Samie]

3 minutes ago, Robert said:

God has allowed sin and all the terrible results of sin. Look around....

It's a different story to allow sin and another story to save the sinner. And you don't believe God saved Adam that day he sinned. He just watched while His child drowns.

[Robert]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

It's a different story to allow sin and another story to save the sinner. And you don't believe God saved Adam that day he sinned. He just watched while His child drowns.

Jesus saved the human race in Himself at the cross.  That's when redemption was finished and not before.  Yes, the plan of redemtpion was from the foundation of the earth, but it wasn't finished until the cross. 

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

So we are born spiritual and then we became sinners?  Wow!  That's a new type of legalism.  Why, I was born holy and if I had died then I wouldn't have needed the righteousness of Christ.  Talk about another gospel....

People are born In Christ because of what God through Christ did for them. Our righteousness is Christ's righteousness.

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

No fault of their own infants are born self-centered.  It's basic self-love....That's how we are born.

Wrong. Pacifier acts were done AFTER birth. NOT before nor during birth.

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

People are born In Christ because of what God through Christ did for them. Our righteousness is Christ's righteousness.

People are born in iniquity (see Ps 51:5) as sons and daughters of Adam, but "in Christ" the 2nd Adam our corporate humanity has been made spiritually alive.  This happened at Christ's resurrection. 

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

Jesus saved the human race in Himself at the cross.  That's when redemption was finished and not before.  Yes, the plan of redemtpion was from the foundation of the earth, but it wasn't finished until the cross. 

Wrong. You are teaching God sent down the Ambulance 4000 years after the emergency occurred.

[Robert]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

Wrong. Pacifier acts were done AFTER birth. NOT before nor during birth.

Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth,  sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

[Robert]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

Wrong. 

I have the Bible  on my side....you have speculation on yours....