Did God Implement the Plan of Redemption the Day Adam Sinned?

[Samie]

4 minutes ago, Robert said:

Because God cannot force....It's outside His nature.  Agape doesn't force.

How is saving Adam from sin and death be outside God's nature of love?

[Samie]

You had warned your son not to go to the river to swim alone but he did. You see him drowning. So, you will not save your son from drowning because he disobeyed your instructions and it is outside your nature of love to save him?

[Samie]

It's barely past 2:00 AM from where I am. I'd better get back to bed since Robert's answer isn't coming that soon. I'll give him more time to contemplate.

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

You had warned your son not to go to the river to swim alone but he did. You see him drowning. So, you will not save your son from drowning because he disobeyed your instructions and it is outside your nature of love to save him?

That's an oversimplification of the issue.

Let's go back to the beginning just before the entrance of sin.

Lucifer began have his doubts about God's agape.  The way I understand it is Lucifer wanted to improve on God's love because he found agape too restrictive. He began to question it:  "Why all this living for others only? What about me?" And so Lucifer introduced the principle of self-love.

On paper the love of self sounds simply wonderful, but when tested what would be the results?  Lucifer had a theory, yet untested.  So what was God to do?

1] Wipe Lucifer out of existence? 

or 

2] Allow him to develop his theory?

To be fair God allowed Lucifer, now turned Satan (the adversary), to develop his brand of love.  Why?  Again, because the love of self sounds wonderful and until tested one cannot see the end result.

We have had over 6000 years of self-love.  What has it done for us?  Who is looking on?  The other planets filled with beings in the image and likeness of God.  They see the results of self-love.  So it's just not about Adam...it's not just about us - it is about all living beings throughout God's universe. 

 

[Robert]

"He (Satan) reiterated his claim that angels needed no control, but should be left to follow their own will, which would ever guide them right. He denounced the divine statues (i.e., love your neighbor as yourself) as a restriction of their liberty, and declared that it was his purpose to secure the abolition of law; that, freed from this restraint, the hosts of Heaven might enter upon a more exalted, more glorious state of existence." [EGW]

[Robert]

"Even when it was decided that he (Lucifer turned Satan) could no longer remain in Heaven, infinite wisdom did not destroy Satan. Since the service of love can alone be acceptable to God, the allegiance of His creatures must rest upon a conviction of His justice and benevolence. The inhabitants of Heaven and of other worlds, being unprepared to comprehend the nature or consequences of sin, could not then have seen the justice and mercy of God in the destruction of Satan. Had he been immediately blotted from existence, they would have served God from fear, rather than from love.. The influence of the deceiver would not have been fully destroyed, nor would the spirit of rebellion have been utterly eradicated.. Evil must be permitted to come to maturity. For the good of the entire universe through ceaseless ages, Satan must more fully develop his principles,that his charges against the divine government might be seen in their true light by all created beings, that the justice and mercy of God and the immutability of His law might forever be placed beyond all question." [EGW]

[Samie]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

... how is He agape if He just watched Adam drown?

 

3 hours ago, Robert said:

Because God cannot force....It's outside His nature.  Agape doesn't force.  What part of this can't you understand?

Adam was warned....Adam failed to take the warning seriously (or something like this).  The result was sin and death. 

 

2 hours ago, Samie said:

How is saving Adam from sin and death be outside God's nature of love?

You had warned your son not to go to the river to swim alone but he did. You see him drowning. So, you will not save your son from drowning because he disobeyed your instructions and it is outside your nature of love to save him?

Your reply came:

1 hour ago, Robert said:

That's an oversimplification of the issue.

Let's go back to the beginning just before the entrance of sin.

Lucifer . . .

I'm not interested in Lucifer's case and I did not ask about him. I was asking about Adam. I have reposted some of our discussion exchanges above. Let's continue with it, brother. Forget about Satan-turned Lucifer. Let our God of agape deal with Him.

You were saying that God did not save Adam the day he sinned because it is outside of his nature to force him. But it is a different thing to force someone to obey and another thing to save someone from the result of disobedience. So I presented you a similar scenario of a father just watching his child drown because he disobeyed his instructions. You won't do what that father did, will you? So, why do you teach that our heavenly Father did it in Adam's case?

[Robert]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

You were saying that God did not save Adam the day he sinned because it is outside of his nature to force him

God saved humanity in Christ Jesus.  This was legally accomplished at the cross. 

As to our human nature, God didn't' change human nature. We retain our fallen human nature until the 2nd coming.  Then we will be changed and not before. Anyone who teaches differently is in reality teaching the holy flesh heresy.

[Samie]

7 hours ago, Robert said:

God saved humanity in Christ Jesus.  This was legally accomplished at the cross. 

Since "humanity" includes Adam and his descendants who lived and died BEFORE the cross, and were SAVED in Christ Jesus long AFTER they have physically died, will they all be in heaven because they were saved? If not, why not?

 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Since "humanity" includes Adam and his descendants who lived and died BEFORE the cross, and were SAVED in Christ Jesus long AFTER they have physically died, will they all be in heaven because they were saved? If not, why not?

 

They were saved "in Christ" legally at the cross . They will be in heaven after the 2nd coming....

[Samie]

17 minutes ago, Robert said:

They were saved "in Christ" legally at the cross . They will be in heaven after the 2nd coming....

Wow!!! So Adam & his descendants who lived and died BEFORE the cross, having been saved "in Christ" legally at the cross, will all be in heaven after the 2nd coming. Wonderful doctrine, Robert: All who lived and died BEFORE the cross will make it to heaven.

But how about those who lived and died AFTER the cross? They were also saved "in Christ" legally at the cross. Will they all be in heaven too after the 2nd Coming?

[Samie]

17 minutes ago, Robert said:

They were saved "in Christ" legally at the cross . They will be in heaven after the 2nd coming....

Wow!!! So Adam & his descendants who lived and died BEFORE the cross, having been saved "in Christ" legally at the cross, will all be in heaven after the 2nd coming. Wonderful doctrine, Robert: All who lived and died BEFORE the cross will make it to heaven.

But how about those who lived and died AFTER the cross? They were also saved "in Christ" legally at the cross. Will they all be in heaven too after the 2nd Coming?

[Samie]

4 hours ago, Samie said:

But how about those who lived and died AFTER the cross? They were also saved "in Christ" legally at the cross. Will they all be in heaven too after the 2nd Coming?

If no, please explain why, when all those who lived and died BEFORE the cross will be in heaven after the 2nd coming as you said?

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

All who lived and died BEFORE the cross will make it to heaven.

I didn't say all would be saved, now did I?

[Robert]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

But how about those who lived and died AFTER the cross? They were also saved "in Christ" legally at the cross. Will they all be in heaven too after the 2nd Coming?

All who do not reject Christ will be in heaven.....

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Robert said:

I didn't say all would be saved, now did I?

So what were you saying here?

[Robert]

32 minutes ago, Samie said:

So what were you saying here?

Humanity was saved "in Christ", but not all will accept this truth. Hence some will be lost. 

[Robert]

By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man (mankind). This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. Thus Christ gave to humanity an existence out of Himself. To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption.  [EGW]

[Robert]

In Christ were united the divine and the human—the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus—the Son of God, and the Son of man.  [EGW]

[Samie]

12 hours ago, Robert said:

Humanity was saved "in Christ", but not all will accept this truth. Hence some will be lost. 

Saved "in Christ" but will be lost? Why?

[Kevin H]

The plan of redemption was implemented the moment God awakened the first creature, probably billions of years before Adam.

[Kevin H]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

Saved "in Christ" but will be lost? Why?

In the ancient world names were a description of a person's character. The Canaanites (at least the leaders living in the walled city states, who oppressed the common people living outside of the city) had become so gross in their behavior that they were all deemed worthy of destruction. In one of these cities there was a woman named after the ancient world's understanding of the devil. She was the worst of the Canaanites. The wicked Canaanites saw her as wicked. If any of them was so bad as to deserve divine vengeance it would be this woman. Her name was Rahab. Yet God was able to save her. This is indicating that if God could save the worst, that he could have saved all the rest if only they would let him. (as the Gibionites did).

I have frequently written here about what hell fire is. We do not stand before the judgment seat of God with our knees knocking and finally being told either "Yes, you can go into heaven" and we wipe the sweat from our brow as we run with joy into heaven. or get "No, you can't go into heaven" and get dragged off kicking and screaming to hell.

What happens is that at the end we see God in all his beauty. The fire coming down from heaven from God is seeing God physically and visually in all  God's glory and beauty. For the saved we will find this heaven to be with him. For the lost they are overwhelmingly attracted to the beauty of God and want to come, but they contrast God's beauty to their best which appears as filthy rags. They are unforgiving people so they cannot comprehend that God can forgive them. No matter how friendly and welcoming God looks now, he will have to get them for their sins, so they pull back from the only source of life. But they are still attracted to him.

They see loved ones they long to be with, but know how they would manipulate their loved ones (much less others) to make them do what they wanted, and that they would still try to control others and use things including complaining, criticizing, blaming, nagging, threatening, punishing and rewarding to control. And they see how this does not fit in life in heaven living under the law of self sacrificing love.  

While there is a pleasure we get from enjoying beauty, there is also a pleasure we get from contempt. I heard a joke once about a little girl who was scolded by her mother. She went outside to pout. While pouting a bird flew over and made a deposit, to the little girl began chanting "It will just have to sit there until papa comes home." We feel a sense of triumph when we complain that if we try something that it would not work out right and sure enough it did not turn out right just as you predicted. We have a sense of feeling good when we put down others (otherwise there would be no bullies.) The lost choose their own morbid heaven of the pleasure we get from complaining and whining. Jesus talked about those who fast and glory in showing off their suffering and said that they got their reward.

These are why people are lost. Heaven and hell are on the one hand the exact same thing, seeing God in all God's beauty. On the other hand they are opposite of each other. Heaven is real and all reality and being a part of reality and enjoying reality. Hell is the figment of the imagination of the person who is lost. They become prisoners in their own mind. Hell is locked from the inside and not with a padlock but a slide lock.

If you want to understand whey people are lost here are a few books that can help: C. S. Lewis "the Great Divorce" Eli Siegel "Self and World" "Children's Guide to Parents and Other Matters" and "James and the Children: a consideration of Henry James 'turn of the screw'"  William Glasser "Choice Theory" (compare Glasser's "Pleasure vs. Happiness" with Siegel's "1A and 2A Pleasure").

I hope this helps.

[Kevin H]

On ‎5‎/‎23‎/‎2016 at 7:41 AM, Samie said:

Wow!!! So Adam & his descendants who lived and died BEFORE the cross, having been saved "in Christ" legally at the cross, will all be in heaven after the 2nd coming. Wonderful doctrine, Robert: All who lived and died BEFORE the cross will make it to heaven.

But how about those who lived and died AFTER the cross? They were also saved "in Christ" legally at the cross. Will they all be in heaven too after the 2nd Coming?

Actually, yes, we, all of us will experience heaven. It is just that for some of us it will be heaven and for others of us it will be hell. Actually we will all be in a heaven of our choosing, either the heaven of enjoying all reality and being a part of reality, or enjoying the heaven of our mind to shut out reality and focus on my self, my self, my self. and the joys of whining and complaining. 

[Robert]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

Saved "in Christ" but will be lost? Why?

Again, because Christ will not force His finished work on fallen humanity.

[Samie]

On 25/05/2016 at 1:10 AM, Robert said:

Again, because Christ will not force His finished work on fallen humanity.

Again, please answer directly why some people who you said are saved in Christ will be lost.

True, Christ does not force and I am not questioning that. I am asking why you are teaching some people who you said are already saved in Christ will be lost while some will NOT be lost. Did God AFTER He saved humanity (and that includes everyone) in Christ, just ARBITRARILY consign some to heaven and some to hell? If He did not and does not and will not, please explain why AFTER God had saved humanity in Christ, some people will still be lost while others will not be lost?

Was it those people's fault why they still end up lost DESPITE having been saved in Christ?