Did God Implement the Plan of Redemption the Day Adam Sinned?

[Samie]

My position relative to the topic of this thread, is consistently Yes. Right on the same day man sinned, God implemented the plan of redemption devised before the beginning of time.  This plan is revealed in the life, death, resurrection and high priestly ministry of our Lord in the heavenly sanctuary. This is why Jesus is the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world. God saved Adam in Christ the day he sinned and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status.  With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ and therefore born spiritually alive instead of born spiritually dead in sin. Born spiritually alive being in Christ and part of His Body, they have His Power to overcome evil with good. And all overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life but will be seated with Christ - Who Himself is also an overcomer - in His throne.

This, in a nutshell, is to my understanding, the gospel that Jesus wanted preached to the world just before He comes again. Matt 24:14.

[Robert]

Free-will, Samie...free-will.  This isn't rocket science. 

[Robert]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

....all his descendants are born in Christ and therefore born spiritually alive instead of born spiritually dead in sin...

This is total nonsense when compared against what Paul has to say....Sorry, but that's what it is.  It's unbibical...it's self-righteous...it's another gospel.

[Kevin H]

Samie, just wondering if you took the time to read my answers to your questions. I hope you take the time to read them, but to summarize

1. You have too late a date for when God implemented the plan of salvation. It began the moment the first being was awakened to life. The sin issue is a lot bigger than me and my personal salvation.

2. I disagree with St. Augustine and Calvin that all we are is only deprived. In Genesis 3:15 God gave us a gift, or deepest desire to love the world as Jesus has loved it, to want to be like and with him. Thus I can partially agree with your statement "With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ and therefore born spiritually alive instead of born spiritually dead in sin. Born spiritually alive being in Christ and part of His Body, they have His Power to overcome evil with good." But on the other hand, until the second coming every human, with the exception of Jesus, has had a sinful nature or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. A disposition to esteem ourselves more highly than others. These two attitudes are fighting in all of us.

3. Why are some saved and some lost? Heaven and Hell are the exact same event. It is only 2 different responses to the exact same event. Thus God saves all of us but for some of us we refuse it because we prefer our own morbid heaven of sulking and complaining and being unforgiving people cannot comprehend God's forgiveness of us and they feel that sooner or later God is going to get them for their sins.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, Robert said:

Free-will, Samie...free-will.

I don't disregard freewill, Robert. To overcome evil or not is exercise of freewill.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, Kevin H said:

You have too late a date for when God implemented the plan of salvation. It began the moment the first being was awakened to life.

I don't think so. The implementation of the plan began the moment the first being fell into sin, NOT when the first being was awakened to life.

How would the plan of salvation be implemented when no one needed to be saved? For one to need salvation, he has to be in the "lost" condition first. Adam, the first human being on earth, needed salvation when he first fell into sin. That was when the plan began to be implemented.

 

3 hours ago, Kevin H said:

But on the other hand, until the second coming every human, with the exception of Jesus, has had a sinful nature

The Bible teaches that Jesus took what you call "sinful nature" of his brethren. Hence, our nature is what Jesus had.

1. He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh. Rom 8:3

2. He was made in the likeness of men. Phil 2:7

3. He was made in all things like unto His brethren. Heb 2:17

 

4 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Heaven and Hell are the exact same event.

I can't understand you.

For me, heaven is where those whose names were not blotted from the book of life will be allowed entry to (Rev 21:27). I understand Hell-fire as the lake of fire where those whose names are not found written in the book of life will be thrown (Rev 20:15).

[Robert]

50 minutes ago, Samie said:

I don't disregard freewill, Robert. To overcome evil or not is exercise of freewill.

I disagree again....

Rom 7:15 For what I am doing (context: sinning), I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.

Our human will cannot override our bent-to-self (i.e., our love of self).  Trying to overcome is like a leopard trying to change its spots.  The flesh cannot reign in the flesh.  Politicians can't self-regulate, etc.

The only way to experience God's agape is to give up and allow Him to have your will.  It's called walking in the Spirit.

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Robert said:

The only way to experience God's agape is to give up and allow Him to have your will.

Giving up and allowing God is overcoming the evil of NOT giving up to God, Robert.

[Kevin H]

Ok Samie, did you read my posts or only that quick summery I gave?  It's going to take some time as your reply to me is full of things we assume about the Bible and salvation based on centuries of tradition. Now I'm not sure what your background is, whether you are of a Seventh-day Adventist background, or Pentecostal, Baptist, Catholic or something else. If I knew I could have a better understanding of your perspective.

A. You asked "How would the plan of salvation be implemented when no one needed to be saved? For one to need salvation, he has to be in the "lost" condition first. Adam, the first human being on earth, needed salvation when he first fell into sin." and probably 99% of Christians, maybe slightly less among Seventh-day Adventists, have this assumption.  I don't have time now but I'll try to come back and share some things that you might be able to find a bigger perspective for this question.

B. You stated: The Bible teaches that Jesus took what you call "sinful nature" of his brethren. Hence, our nature is what Jesus had.

1. He was sent in the likeness of sinful flesh. Rom 8:3

2. He was made in the likeness of men. Phil 2:7

3. He was made in all things like unto His brethren. Heb 2:17

These verses were studied and discussed by theologians for centuries and eventually a rare thing, a conscience was formed and became tradition. This is one of the few places where Church tradition appears to have gotten it right. For the most part you will find this view outside of Seventh-day Adventism. We have some trouble with this truth because many of our pioneers questioned the trinity. As the Trinity became more central we automatically assumed the traditional view. In the 1950s in discussions with some evangelical pastors our representatives to this discussion were caught off guard to the question on the nature of Christ and gave a half answer. Elder Andresen pointed out that it was a half answer and that we neglected half of the answer. Then our members tended to gravitate either towards one half of the answer or the other and make that the whole truth and fight against the other half of the answer.

 

So far we have one question based on Church tradition but where study indicated that the church tradition may be too narrow. The other question sounds like you don't know the Church tradition and this is where it appears that tradition is actually right.  

C. About hell fire you said:   I can't understand you. For me, heaven is where those whose names were not blotted from the book of life will be allowed entry to (Rev 21:27). I understand Hell-fire as the lake of fire where those whose names are not found written in the book of life will be thrown (Rev 20:15).

I've posted about hell here several times. There have been some exciting Bible studies on the subject, some evidence that it may even back up as far as Tyndale.  We can discuss these topics.

 

[Samie]

37 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

The other question sounds like you don't know the Church tradition and this is where it appears that tradition is actually right.

NAS Mark 7:8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

NAS Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

 

[Kevin H]

12 hours ago, Samie said:

NAS Mark 7:8 "Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men."

NAS Colossians 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.

 

But this is where the tradition came from much Bible study and discussion, and the years of Bible study have constantly indicated that this time the church was correct. (and this is God's church, we can't be wrong all the time.)

And don't forget you appealed to tradition in at least your first answer. Is appealing to tradition only correct when it agrees with you?

[Samie]

6 hours ago, Kevin H said:

But this is where the tradition came from much Bible study and discussion, and the years of Bible study have constantly indicated that this time the church was correct. (and this is God's church, we can't be wrong all the time.)

And don't forget you appealed to tradition in at least your first answer. Is appealing to tradition only correct when it agrees with you?

???

[Samie]

What tradition did I appeal to, Kevin? Please be specific. Thanks.

[Kevin H]

The assumption that as you said "How would the plan of salvation be implemented when no one needed to be saved?" Why do you believe that no one needed to be saved prior to sin?

Where does life come from?

Are those who have not sinned saved by their good works? Are we saved by faith but the angels and rest of the universe saved by their works? Isn't that assumption legalistic?

Is salvation merely a legal adjustment, or is there something more to it that extends beyond human's sinning?

[Samie]

1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

The assumption that as you said "How would the plan of salvation be implemented when no one needed to be saved?" Why do you believe that no one needed to be saved prior to sin?

So you are faulting me as appealing to tradition with what you call an assumption?

And it is but logical that the plan of salvation had to be implemented when the need arises. When do you breathe? When the need arises. What's wrong with that? Do we have to read verbatim from Scriptures that we have to breathe only when the need arises?

1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

Where does life come from?

Are those who have not sinned saved by their good works? Are we saved by faith but the angels and rest of the universe saved by their works? Isn't that assumption legalistic?

Why would those who have not sinned need saving from sin? Do you save from drowning those who are not drowning?

And where did I event hint that salvation is works-based?

Also, the plan of redemption depicted in Scriptures is for humanity, not for the angels who sinned and sided with the adversary. The Bible says nothing about any plan of redemption for Satan and his host. Christ has EXPLICITLY said that the lake of fire is prepared for Satan and his angels and to where evil-doers are to go (Matt 25:41).

1 hour ago, Kevin H said:

Is salvation merely a legal adjustment, or is there something more to it that extends beyond human's sinning?

I don't know what you mean by legal adjustment. 

What I simply know is that a good father, seeing his child drowning, will not just simply fold his hands and watch his child drown. Instead, he will do all he can, even to the peril of his own life, to save his drowning child. And God, as the best Father, did not just fold His hands that day Adam sinned. He saved His drowning child Adam and reinstated him to his pre-fall spiritual status, an act that cost Him His Only Begotten Son - the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world.

[Samie]

It's almost Sabbath School time from where I am. I have to go...

[Windsor]

On 5/20/2016 at 11:39 AM, Samie said:

Everyone in this forum believes God is love. And He is, no doubt. But it appears that many believe that when Adam sinned, God just watched as Adam's nature changed from good to bad and God did NOTHING that same day to forestall the change.

Am just curious whether there are in this forum those who believe that the God of love implemented the plan of redemption right on the same day Adam sinned.  To start with, I am one.

Yes the plan of salvation was implemented the day Adam and Eve sinned (yet planned for before their creation).

It is stated in Genesis 3:15, the first Messianic prophecy in the Bible.

 
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

What is this enmity? The power to resist temptation.

[Samie]

8 minutes ago, Windsor said:

Yes the plan of salvation was implemented the day Adam and Eve sinned (yet planned for before their creation).

And I thought I was alone.

Elijah had been through the same thought. But God had 7,000 more Elijah was not aware of.

[Kevin H]

Why do you say that the plan of redemption was not directed to angels (and am I right to also imply the life on the unfallen worlds?) How are they saved?

[Samie]

42 minutes ago, Windsor said:

Yes the plan of salvation was implemented the day Adam and Eve sinned (yet planned for before their creation).

It is stated in Genesis 3:15, the first Messianic prophecy in the Bible.

 
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

What is this enmity? The power to resist temptation.

Just curious, though. I want to know your thoughts on how God implemented the plan of salvation that day Adam sinned.  Can you please share them with me and with others in this forum who may perhaps be interested? Thanks in advance.

[Samie]

18 hours ago, Kevin H said:

Why do you say that the plan of redemption was not directed to angels (and am I right to also imply the life on the unfallen worlds?) How are they saved?

Because the plan of salvation mentioned in the Bible is for Adam and his descendants. I am not in any freedom to apply it to other than to whom the Bible applies it and it is to Adam's race. See John 3:17; 6:33, 51; Rom 5:18; 1 Tim 2:3-6; 2 Tim 1:8-10.

If there is any plan of redemption for the angels and for the inhabitants of the unfallen worlds, I am not aware of it. And if there is any, I am not against it. As to how they are saved should they sin, I really don't know. I have already mentioned that the lake of fire is reserved for Satan and his host and to where evil-doers are to go.

[Kevin H]

There are not two different plans of salvation, but only one. A big part of Seventh-day Adventism is what is called the Great Controversy, which is looking at the universal issues of salvation. And although Mrs. White's writings put more emphases on it, as we learn more about Archaeology and the world of the Bible we learn that the universal issues of the Great Controversy was a big part of the ancient world. The Bible corrected the misunderstandings. Mrs. White fills in the missing context without us having to become scholars of archaeology and history.

Seventh-day Adventists also have a belief that we call the "Investigative Judgment" and a big part of that is that the angels and beings from the unfallen worlds are reviewing the records of those who claim to have accepted Christ into their lives and how they either let Christ change their lives, or just give lip service without allowing him to change them. Through studying this they understand their own salvation better.

As we study both sides it answers questions such as why is there so much evil in the world, and how does God destroy the sinners.

A couple of decades ago we had some friction with one of our scholars, Dr. Desmond Ford. The basic issues come from him not looking at the more universal issues but approached the topic just from the fact that humans sinned and seeing the important thing being our legal standing with God.

You asked if the plan of Salvation started the day that Adam sinned. You seem to not really want to study the question and understand different perspectives. You seem (and I apologize if this is a misrepresentation) to either be looking for us to think that it started later, or to agree with you and if we agree with you that you want to unfold a case for some things you are thinking about and desire to share.

I am interested in what you have to say, but you don't have to convince me that the plan of salvation was in effect the day Adam sinned because I believe it was implemented much earlier and thus was well into the process when Adam sinned, with God fully in control. And I hope to hear more from your perspective.  In my next post I will once again review the eternal Gospel.

[Kevin H]

God is Love. Those three words are packed with the whole story. The Bible and Mrs. White go on to explain this thesis. Although God is all powerful, God can't do anything else because he is love.

We start out with God being both infinite, outside of time and space, and impersonal the God of everything, and at the same time being finite (inside of time and space) and personal. To communicate with finite creatures God needed 3 manifestations showing 3 aspects about God's self for finite beings to be able to relate to him. If God did not also step into time and space creatures would have been atheists because they could not comprehend the infinite God. But they can comprehend these finite manifestations/self revelation. 

First finite beings needed to know that God was indeed God, a being on the throne showing God as awesome and power and that God was much bigger than we are even able to imagine, a bridge between the infinite and finite, a great unapproachable light who angels veiled their face  before/a deep darkness that cannot be comprehended. But if this was all there was of God he would be too awesome and scary for us to have a relationship with. Since he is the only source of life and life only comes from our relationship with him, eventually all created beings would have been scared to death. God as power is necessary but insufficient.

Creatures needed a relationship, needed to understand God as friend. One of them. So to the angels he appeared as an angel. Unless it was better to show up in another form, we find to Adam and other humans as another human. To the beings on the other planets probably as one of them, (until he became the person Jesus Christ). If this was the only manifestation, he would be a nice enough buddy, but what makes what he has to say any different from my thoughts. So this revelation was necessary but also insufficient.  

Finite beings needed to remember that this great being on the throne is our good friend and that our good friend is also this being upon the throne.

But these 2 manifestations are both objective revelations. Created beings are both objective and subjective. Thus God also needs to work with our subjective so we have the Holy Spirit. If we only had the Holy Spirit, just God working with our subjective all of life would be like living with a bunch of conference presidents who believe that all their ideas are the Spirit's leading. My understanding says that you deserve a punch in the nose, yours says that you don't and things end up being chaos.  So the Holy Spirit is necessary but insufficient. But the 3 are both necessary and sufficient. (Notice I did not say the word "Complete").

These 3 beings exist in a righteousness by faith relationship with each other based on the law of self sacrificing love.

Self Sacrificing love is the law of God. No more and no less. But we may ask what "Self Sacrificing love" means, so we get the 2 great principles; to love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves. How do we do this? the law is further broken down into 10 commandments. The Exodus 20 version breaks down into 3 thirds: the first third consists of 3 commandments that teach us how to love God supremely. It also describes the work of God the Father. The last third consists of 6 commandments that teach us how to love our neighbor as ourselves, They show the work of the Holy Spirit in making us into loving and loveable creatures. The middle third consists of one commandment and this one commandment is the very heart of the 10 commandments It ties the 2 sides together and says that the only way we can love God supremely and our neighbor as ourselves is through resting in a relationship with our God. The Sabbath is a symbol of righteousness by faith and a description of the ministry of Jesus.

Only in God is life, creatures only have our life through this connection with God. The plan of salvation if for created beings to choose to have this life giving relationship. God did not create us as robots who had to obey, but free to choose to obey. The plan of Salvation is everything God does to have this relationship so firmly established that as many as possible will have that relationship eternally, by the unfallen staying true and to restore those of the fallen who are willing to repent. It is a oneness of opposites of Justice and Mercy. The plan of redemption is everything God does to reach this point with his creatures, and we are not only talking about fallen mankind but also what makes the faithful angels and unfallen to stay in this condition. It is everything God does to deal with the issue of sin, from it's potentiality to it's actuality.  It is the same plan of salvation. The sin issue was no surprise from God. Everything God has done to build a life giving relationship is the plan of salvation, implemented with the very first creature met his creator.

I was going to write more but I think this is sufficient for now (and I'm tired). I hope you find this useful.

[Samie]

21 hours ago, Kevin H said:

I am interested in what you have to say, but you don't have to convince me that the plan of salvation was in effect the day Adam sinned because I believe it was implemented much earlier and thus was well into the process when Adam sinned, with God fully in control.

I respect your view. But can you expound on how the PLAN of salvation was, or can be, implemented BEFORE any act of sinning occurred?

Also, since you claimed that even the angels were included in that PLAN, how was it applied to Satan and his host for whom Christ said the lake of fire is reserved?

[Samie]

That God is Love is incontestable. And since He is, He did not simply fold His hands and did nothing to forestall Adam's nature to morph from good to evil. By implementing the PLAN of salvation, He reinstated Adam to his pre-fall spiritual status thereby forestalling the change, an act that cost Him His Only Begotten Son, the Lamb SLAIN from the foundation of the world.

Is anything wrong with the above? If there is, then please explain why.