Murders depicted in the Bible

[APL]

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

"Who is this King of Glory? The Lord Strong and Mighty in battle!!"  (Psalms 24:8)

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

1 hour ago, The Wanderer said:

The guy on the white horse, and with  "a sharp sword" and His "vesture dipped in blood," (Rev 19:11-16 would have something to say about the concept that He did not ever tell His people to go to war. You say you don't like Gregory thinking that the old testament injunctions thereof are for us today, but the NT, being at one with the OT does differ with the concept you have advanced.

My point in all of this is to point out that the Scriptures tell us that whether its a battle, or a Bible reading, "The Lord is [THAT] Man of War", ever and always willing and able to help us in the battles of life that we fight today.

Wanderer - have you missed the point of REVELATION?  What is the sharp sword?  And WHOSE clothes were dipped in blood? 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, see, in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Israel never need to fight and yet they did.  Why? Because God wanted them to?  No. God had His ways to clear the land, but Israel took matters into their own hands and fought.  Israel had kings.  Was that God's plan?  Did God aid in choosing a king?  Yes, but it was never God's plan that they have a king.  He was to be their king.  They rejected Him. 

1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said to Samuel, Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you: for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1 Samuel 10:19 And you have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to him, No, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.

No, Israel's actions are rarely guiding lights for us or revealing God.  God is seen in His dealings with His wayward people and He is good.  Israel fighting in war is not a revelation of how we should act.  Christ revealed the true character of God. 

Luke 6:27-29 But I say to you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you. 29 And to him that smites you on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that takes away your cloak forbid not to take your coat also.

You want to know how to really get at your enemy?

Romans 12:20-21 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

[Samie]

What prevents APL & Kevin from believing that aside from being Shepherd with His rod to guide His sheep, our God is also our Father with His rod to discipline His children?

[Samie]

The two verses in Scriptures APL & Kevin wished weren't there:

        ^NKJ Proverbs 3:11-12  

¹² For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

         ^NKJ Proverbs 13:24 He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

[LifeHiscost]

On 1/23/2017 at 4:34 AM, Gregory Matthews said:

Re Manson:  Do we want to have a prison system that kills people because it costs less to do so than it costs to keep them alive and in prison?

 

When they have proven they are not repentant of those they are responsible for killing, by all means. What was the biblical flood all about?

 

26"When a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and dies because of it, for his iniquity which he has committed he will die..... Ezekiel 18

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

[Kevin Straub]

8 hours ago, APL said:

2 Corinthians 10:3-5 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Wanderer - have you missed the point of REVELATION?  What is the sharp sword?  And WHOSE clothes were dipped in blood? 

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Revelation 5:6 And I beheld, and, see, in the middle of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the middle of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Israel never need to fight and yet they did.  Why? Because God wanted them to?  No. God had His ways to clear the land, but Israel took matters into their own hands and fought.  Israel had kings.  Was that God's plan?  Did God aid in choosing a king?  Yes, but it was never God's plan that they have a king.  He was to be their king.  They rejected Him. 

1 Samuel 8:7 And the LORD said to Samuel, Listen to the voice of the people in all that they say to you: for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

1 Samuel 10:19 And you have this day rejected your God, who himself saved you out of all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to him, No, but set a king over us. Now therefore present yourselves before the LORD by your tribes, and by your thousands.

No, Israel's actions are rarely guiding lights for us or revealing God.  God is seen in His dealings with His wayward people and He is good.  Israel fighting in war is not a revelation of how we should act.  Christ revealed the true character of God. 

Luke 6:27-29 But I say to you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you, 28 Bless them that curse you, and pray for them which spitefully use you. 29 And to him that smites you on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that takes away your cloak forbid not to take your coat also.

You want to know how to really get at your enemy?

Romans 12:20-21 Therefore if your enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing you shall heap coals of fire on his head. 21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.

Blessed truth that lays the darkness in the dust. It is shameful that men love the darkness rather than the light. Why is that? This is a question that has been so troubling to me in recent times. Why do they fight so hard for a God of physical violence, as though He is not powerful enough, in righteousness, to win without it? What a weak God they serve, a coward and a bully.

[Samie]

59 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Blessed truth that lays the darkness in the dust. It is shameful that men love the darkness rather than the light. Why is that? This is a question that has been so troubling to me in recent times. Why do they fight so hard for a God of physical violence, as though He is not powerful enough, in righteousness, to win without it? What a weak God they serve, a coward and a bully.

Un-Blessed half-truth better describes it.  More shameful to peddle half-truth as truth.

Who has bewitched APL & Kevin into believing that God uses His rod only to guide His sheep as their Shepherd, but denies His use of His rod to discipline His children as their Father Who loves them?

     ^NKJ Proverbs 3:11-12  

               ¹¹ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction;   

¹² For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

         ^NKJ Proverbs 13:24 He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

The one who bewitched the duo into believing half-truth as truth had likewise succeeded to bewitch them into believing that disciplining is bullying.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

4 hours ago, Kevin Straub said:

Why do they fight so hard for a God of physical violence, as though He is not powerful enough, in righteousness, to win without it? What a weak God they serve, a coward and a bully.

what bothers me with the presentation that God always just "turns his face" and lets sin take its course is that it seems so very heartless.  I'll tell you, I seldom bother reading this thread anymore because it actually gives me nightmares.  People (sinners) who were sinning and needed correction, but again and again and again and again God just turns away from them ("hides His face") and lets them suffer the consequences simply because He refused to dirty His hands by correcting/punishing the sinners to let them know they were sinning. How can people know they're sinning unless God gets their attention and corrects them?  It's not cowardly or bullying by God to correct someone.   But the "He-just-turns-His-face" business just sounds  as if God is getting His jollies out of watching people sin, just so's He can turn His face, plug His ears with His fingers, and say, "nah, nah, nah, nah — I can't hear you!"

If that's really how God is, then just forget it.  That's a creepy, mean-spirited God, and one to whom I'd say, "just go away and leave me be.  I'll take care of myself, as it certainly doesn't appear that *You* give a rat's patootie about me..."

[Kevin Straub]

1 hour ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

what bothers me with the presentation that God always just "turns his face" and lets sin take its course is that it seems so very heartless.  I'll tell you, I seldom bother reading this thread anymore because it actually gives me nightmares.  People (sinners) who were sinning and needed correction, but again and again and again and again God just turns away from them ("hides His face") and lets them suffer the consequences simply because He refused to dirty His hands by correcting/punishing the sinners to let them know they were sinning. How can people know they're sinning unless God gets their attention and corrects them?  It's not cowardly or bullying by God to correct someone.   But the "He-just-turns-His-face" business just sounds  as if God is getting His jollies out of watching people sin, just so's He can turn His face, plug His ears with His fingers, and say, "nah, nah, nah, nah — I can't hear you!"

If that's really how God is, then just forget it.  That's a creepy, mean-spirited God, and one to whom I'd say, "just go away and leave me be.  I'll take care of myself, as it certainly doesn't appear that *You* give a rat's patootie about me..."

Oh, Pam, so slow of heart to believe and dull of understanding. "God gets their attention and corrects them," all right. The mechanism is DR. He allows sin to punish itself by allowing the consequences. Can you not hear what we are saying, nor can you see the Bible keys to explain what Divine wrath is? Go again to read Deut. 31:16-18. There is no other definition of wrath. We are to interpret all of the wrath language like this. God's wrath is not an emotion and it is not expressed in violence. It is not His way and it is not necessary. Only humans find it necessary to thrust through, decapitate, burn, suffocate, drown, and otherwise brutalize the sinner because of their carnal sense of what punishment should be: make them hurt the way they made others hurt. God doesn't do that. He pities them. But He must give them over to godlessness if this is what they choose. This brings suffering in its train and sometimes it is brutal.

Please read the following very carefully:

" The love of a holy God is an amazing principle, which can stir the universe in our behalf during the hours of our probation and trial. But after the season of our probation, if we are found transgressors of God's law, the God of love will be found a minister of vengeance. God makes no compromise with sin. The disobedient will be punished. [How?] The wrath of God fell upon his beloved Son as Christ hung upon the cross of Calvary in the transgressor's place. [In other places this is spoken of as the hiding of His face. God withdrew from Him] The love of God now reaches out to embrace the lowest, vilest sinner that will come to Christ with contrition. It reaches out to transform the sinner into an obedient, faithful child of God; but not a soul can be saved if he continues in sin. Sin is the transgression of the law, and the Arm that is now mighty to save will be strong to punish when the transgressor passes the bounds that limit divine forbearance. [Again, HOW?] He who refuses to seek for life, who will not search the Scriptures to see what is truth, lest he should be condemned in his practices, will be left to blindness of mind and to the deceptions of Satan. [Notice: "will be left" to outside forces. This is DR. It is ALWAYS DR.] To the same degree that the penitent and obedient are shielded by God's love, the impenitent and disobedient will be left TO THE RESULT of their own ignorance and hardness of heart, because they receive not the love of the truth that they may be saved.  {RH, June 17, 1890 par. 5} 

Do you see it? The wicked are "left to the result" of their sin.

[APL]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

Un-Blessed half-truth better describes it.  More shameful to peddle half-truth as truth.

Who has bewitched APL & Kevin into believing that God uses His rod only to guide His sheep as their Shepherd, but denies His use of His rod to discipline His children as their Father Who loves them?

Now who is speaking a half-truth - which is no truth at all.  Guiding children is discipline.  But striking a child to inflict pain, is that what you call discipline?  I don't.  This news story came up in connection with another on facebook just today:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/09/01/she-beat-her-son-with-a-hanger-and-said-indianas-religious-freedom-law-gives-her-the-right/?tid=a_inl&utm_term=.f36b00ec5c6e

Just change hanger to rod, is that what you'd like for us to believe?  I hope not!

[Kevin Straub]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

Un-Blessed half-truth better describes it.  More shameful to peddle half-truth as truth.

Who has bewitched APL & Kevin into believing that God uses His rod only to guide His sheep as their Shepherd, but denies His use of His rod to discipline His children as their Father Who loves them?

     ^NKJ Proverbs 3:11-12  

               ¹¹ My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD, Nor detest His correction;   

¹² For whom the LORD loves He corrects, Just as a father the son in whom he delights.

         ^NKJ Proverbs 13:24 He who spares his rod hates his son, But he who loves him disciplines him promptly.

The one who bewitched the duo into believing half-truth as truth had likewise succeeded to bewitch them into believing that disciplining is bullying.

The ones bewitched are the ones who believe righteousness involves beating. If I saw you use a rod on your kid, you'd be getting a ride in the back seat of a police cruiser. Here's what "religious" people do:

http://www.indystar.com/story/news/crime/2016/08/31/son-had-36-bruises-mom-quoted-bible-defense/88998568/

This is the sickness of heart, mind and spirit that comes out of believing in a violent God. By beholding we become changed. Vile God, vile human.

[Green Cochoa]

1 hour ago, Kevin Straub said:

Oh, Pam, so slow of heart to believe and dull of understanding.

Kevin,

"Thou art the man."  The one who is "dull of understanding" in this study is the one who does not take God at His Word, nor follow the Biblical injunction to "believe His prophets."

Quote

God requires more of His followers than many realize. If we would not build our hopes of heaven upon a false foundation we must accept the Bible as it reads and believe that the Lord means what He says. He requires nothing of us that He will not give us grace to perform. We shall have no excuse to offer in the day of God if we fail to reach the standard set before us in His word.  {5T 171.1} 

The majority of what follows comes from Jesus' favorite book of the law, the one He quoted to meet all three of the temptations in the wilderness.

Reference	Plain Words of the Bible	Comments
Genesis 6:13	And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.	God did not say "I will let Satan destroy them."
Genesis 19:29	And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.	God did NOT say "I will stop protecting My abominable sinners so that they can reap what they have sown."
Exodus 22:20	He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.	God gave this commandment to Israel, instead of commanding that the offender should be "forsaken and left to punish himself by his own sin."
Deuteronomy 4:3	Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you.	God says He destroyed the instigators of the Baalpeor apostasy. Does God lie?
Deuteronomy 7:1-3	When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.	God commanded the Israelites to kill and to "utterly destroy" the specified nations. God Himself promised to help them do so.
Deuteronomy 7:23-24	But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed. And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.	Would God have promised to destroy and command the people of Israel to also destroy if such were against His character? The Bible does not lie to us in saying God gave this command, making evident that God will certainly punish and destroy impenitent transgressors.
Deuteronomy 9:3	Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.	God promises to destroy, and emphasizes that He has told us this.
Deuteronomy 20:17-18	But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.	God tells us here the reason for commanding the destruction of these nations--to prevent others from sinning. God knows that a few bad apples removed will preserve many others.
Deuteronomy 31:3-4	The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said. And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.	God tells us here that He destroyed Sihon and Og. He would not lie to us. He says He will also destroy other nations likewise.
Deuteronomy 33:27	The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.	God would never say something that was against His character, yet He says "Destroy."

 

[Kevin Straub]

33 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Kevin,

"Thou art the man."  The one who is "dull of understanding" in this study is the one who does not take God at His Word, nor follow the Biblical injunction to "believe His prophets."

The majority of what follows comes from Jesus' favorite book of the law, the one He quoted to meet all three of the temptations in the wilderness.

Reference	Plain Words of the Bible	Comments
Genesis 6:13	And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.	God did not say "I will let Satan destroy them."
Genesis 19:29	And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.	God did NOT say "I will stop protecting My abominable sinners so that they can reap what they have sown."
Exodus 22:20	He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.	God gave this commandment to Israel, instead of commanding that the offender should be "forsaken and left to punish himself by his own sin."
Deuteronomy 4:3	Your eyes have seen what the LORD did because of Baalpeor: for all the men that followed Baalpeor, the LORD thy God hath destroyed them from among you.	God says He destroyed the instigators of the Baalpeor apostasy. Does God lie?
Deuteronomy 7:1-3	When the LORD thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou; And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor show mercy unto them: Neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son.	God commanded the Israelites to kill and to "utterly destroy" the specified nations. God Himself promised to help them do so.
Deuteronomy 7:23-24	But the LORD thy God shall deliver them unto thee, and shall destroy them with a mighty destruction, until they be destroyed. And he shall deliver their kings into thine hand, and thou shalt destroy their name from under heaven: there shall no man be able to stand before thee, until thou have destroyed them.	Would God have promised to destroy and command the people of Israel to also destroy if such were against His character? The Bible does not lie to us in saying God gave this command, making evident that God will certainly punish and destroy impenitent transgressors.
Deuteronomy 9:3	Understand therefore this day, that the LORD thy God is he which goeth over before thee; as a consuming fire he shall destroy them, and he shall bring them down before thy face: so shalt thou drive them out, and destroy them quickly, as the LORD hath said unto thee.	God promises to destroy, and emphasizes that He has told us this.
Deuteronomy 20:17-18	But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee: That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the LORD your God.	God tells us here the reason for commanding the destruction of these nations--to prevent others from sinning. God knows that a few bad apples removed will preserve many others.
Deuteronomy 31:3-4	The LORD thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the LORD hath said. And the LORD shall do unto them as he did to Sihon and to Og, kings of the Amorites, and unto the land of them, whom he destroyed.	God tells us here that He destroyed Sihon and Og. He would not lie to us. He says He will also destroy other nations likewise.
Deuteronomy 33:27	The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them.	God would never say something that was against His character, yet He says "Destroy."

 

SMH. I don't know why you bother. You are wasting your time with all of this. Circular argumentation. As if we do not know what is the "major voice" of the Bible. You can bring every Bible text and every SoP statement that uses the language and it will not make one iota of difference. It does not prove that God uses violence by His own hand. We believe God destroys. But not the way you believe it. This is gross darkness.

[Green Cochoa]

33 minutes ago, The Wanderer said:

Howdy Green; I am not taking Kevin's side, or in any way defending his theories with what I am about to say, but I want to take a brief look at moving forward with the awsome research you have just shared. Please bear in mind I completely disagree with most of kevin's statements here because they are so unbalanced. These texts are all true, as you have quoted them in your chart. So buying into that and moving forward, I will pose the question. I could easily become dramatic such as Kevin's last post and "prove" my point. I have much worse scars and wounds on my own body I could photograph and show everyone my point. Now, regarding your comment re Deut 20:17-18 you stated: "God tells us the reason here for commanding the destruction of nations - to prevent others from sinning."

Moving forward to myself, and my situation...we could say "God burned 50% of The Wanderer's body, as well as breaking many other bones in a number of serious accidents  TO KEEP HIM FROM SINNING."  Now, does that even come close to making sense to you? Did God do this to me to keep me from sinning? How could that be so when I have been sinning quite well for the past 61 years of my life?

Wanderer,

My last post addressed when God destroys, not when He corrects.  He destroys to prevent the spread of sin to others, such as when a hive of bees with foul brood must be destroyed or a flock of poultry with bird flu must be culled to prevent the spread of the disease.  He cannot salvage an individual by destroying him or her.  When God corrects, it is by other measures than by destruction. 

I cannot know the specifics of your case, but sin causes a great amount of woe in this earth and all who are saved will have been amply inoculated against it.  It sounds to me as if you've gotten a pretty hefty dose.  If those trials and misfortunes have driven you to Christ, then they have truly worked together for your good, as the Bible promises.

[Green Cochoa]

18 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

This is gross darkness.

Indeed it is.  "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."  And "this word" tells us both that God commanded His people to destroy those who had filled their cup of iniquity, and that God does not tempt anyone with evil.  Therefore, God gave righteous commands.

Tell me, how does God "command" by "hiding His face"?  Does His hidden face "speak"?  So much for "divine recession" when "sinful" (not) words come out.  What you need, Kevin, is to more carefully understand the nature of God's character.  God is just, faithful, and true; and He claims vengeance as His.  He is a jealous God, and a man of war, in addition to being a loving Father. 

 

27 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

It does not prove that God uses violence by His own hand.

At this time, war was declared against them by the Philistines, who were ever aggressive; and though they had been punished repeatedly by the hand of the Lord, for their oppression of Israel, they were still hostile and unsubdued. . . . {RH, March 20, 1888 par. 8}

My dear Brethren: Those who stand in responsible positions in the work of the Lord are represented as watchmen on the walls of Zion. God calls upon them to sound an alarm among the people. Let it be heard in all the plain. The day of woe, of wasting and destruction, is upon all who do unrighteousness. With special severity will the Lord's hand fall upon the watchmen who have failed to place before the people in clear lines their obligation to Him who by creation and by redemption is their owner.  {CH 355.1}

I saw that the priests who are leading on their flock to death are soon to be arrested in their dreadful career. The plagues of God are coming, but it will not be sufficient for the false shepherds to be tormented with one or two of these plagues. God's hand at that time will be stretched out still in wrath and justice and will not be brought to Himself again until His purposes are fully accomplished, and the hireling priests are led to worship at the feet of the saints, and to acknowledge that God has loved them because they held fast the truth and kept God's commandments, and until all the unrighteous ones are destroyed from the earth.  {EW 124.1} 

[Kevin Straub]

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

Indeed it is.  "If they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."  And "this word" tells us both that God commanded His people to destroy those who had filled their cup of iniquity, and that God does not tempt anyone with evil.  Therefore, God gave righteous commands.

Tell me, how does God "command" by "hiding His face"?  Does His hidden face "speak"?  So much for "divine recession" when "sinful" (not) words come out.  What you need, Kevin, is to more carefully understand the nature of God's character.  God is just, faithful, and true; and He claims vengeance as His.  He is a jealous God, and a man of war, in addition to being a loving Father. 

 

At this time, war was declared against them by the Philistines, who were ever aggressive; and though they had been punished repeatedly by the hand of the Lord, for their oppression of Israel, they were still hostile and unsubdued. . . . {RH, March 20, 1888 par. 8}

My dear Brethren: Those who stand in responsible positions in the work of the Lord are represented as watchmen on the walls of Zion. God calls upon them to sound an alarm among the people. Let it be heard in all the plain. The day of woe, of wasting and destruction, is upon all who do unrighteousness. With special severity will the Lord's hand fall upon the watchmen who have failed to place before the people in clear lines their obligation to Him who by creation and by redemption is their owner.  {CH 355.1}

I saw that the priests who are leading on their flock to death are soon to be arrested in their dreadful career. The plagues of God are coming, but it will not be sufficient for the false shepherds to be tormented with one or two of these plagues. God's hand at that time will be stretched out still in wrath and justice and will not be brought to Himself again until His purposes are fully accomplished, and the hireling priests are led to worship at the feet of the saints, and to acknowledge that God has loved them because they held fast the truth and kept God's commandments, and until all the unrighteous ones are destroyed from the earth.  {EW 124.1} 

God commands destruction in the sense that He tells protective forces to stand down. It is figurative in the case of nature. It is issued in the case of angels.

By the hand of God means the same thing. It is all the same language. DR is in the penal metaphor. We believe that all wrath, all punishment, is DR. This includes the flood, Sodom, and the cross. All the same mechanism. This is all the judicial punishment of God. It is all the wrath of God. It is all falling into the hands of the living God.

  "It is a fearful thing for the unrepenting sinner to fall into the hands of the living God. This is proved by the history of the destruction of the old world by a flood, by the record of the fire which fell from heaven and destroyed the inhabitants of Sodom. But never was this proved to so great an extent as in the agony of Christ, the Son of the infinite God, when he bore the wrath of God for a sinful world. It was in consequence of sin, the transgression of God's law, that the Garden of Gethsemane has become pre-eminently the place of suffering to a sinful world. No sorrow, no agony, can measure with that which was endured by the Son of God."  {AG 168.3} 

This agony was due to the abandonment of soul by the Father, the hiding of His face and it is also what the wicked will at last suffer. Physical fire upon them, while being kept alive by the power of God for purposes of torture, would preclude their being able to process the burden of guilt. This final fire is all at the cognitive level.

“As man's substitute and surety, the iniquity of men was laid upon Christ; He was counted a transgressor that He might redeem them from the curse of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam of every age was pressing upon His heart; and the wrath of God and the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. Every pang endured by the Son of God upon the cross, the blood drops that flowed from His head, His hands and feet, the convulsions of agony which racked His frame, and the unutterable anguish that filled His soul at the hiding of His Father's face from Him, speak to man, saying, It is for love of thee that the Son of God consents to have these heinous crimes laid upon Him…. He, the sin-bearer, endures judicial punishment for iniquity and becomes sin itself for man” (SR 225.1).

Those who reject the mercy so freely proffered, will yet be made to know the worth of that which they have despised. They will feel the agony which Christ endured upon the cross to purchase redemption for all who would receive it. And they will then realize what they have lost--eternal life and the immortal inheritance (RH Sept. 4, 1883).  {6BC 1069.6}

[Green Cochoa]

Kevin,

Would you please address the commands of God to the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites?  How is a direct God-spoken command a "recession," especially considering the Bible verse which says:
 

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." (Psalm 12:6)

 

Such words of God are simply irreconcilable with your chosen hermeneutic.

[Kevin Straub]

40 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Kevin,

Would you please address the commands of God to the Israelites to destroy the Canaanites?  How is a direct God-spoken command a "recession," especially considering the Bible verse which says:
 

"The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times." (Psalm 12:6)

 

Such words of God are simply irreconcilable with your chosen hermeneutic.

Don't be so sure. Probing a new view is necessary, but I know you are looking for ways to write this off. That much is obvious. It is really no way to receive light. I wish you had a better mind for present truth. It would be so much better for you.

This is all under permissive will. The way of the sword was man's way. God works with man where he is at. There are five chapters in my book that deal with this subject. For a shorter coverage of it, please read this paper:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/Permissive Will.docx

[Green Cochoa]

I see.  So you would be forced to conclude that God commands man to go in his own way, in which case God might command us to do something even now that is not truly His will.  Therefore, we should be cautious about obeying God.  Finally, our own logic and reasoning must necessarily trump a plain "thus saith the LORD."

You won't catch me by such specious reasoning.  It comes straight from the devil.

[Kevin Straub]

43 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

I see.  So you would be forced to conclude that God commands man to go in his own way, in which case God might command us to do something even now that is not truly His will.  Therefore, we should be cautious about obeying God.  Finally, our own logic and reasoning must necessarily trump a plain "thus saith the LORD."

You won't catch me by such specious reasoning.  It comes straight from the devil.

Why don't you tone down your rhetoric? The God you are beholding is forming your character. You come across all accusatory and snotty and expect to be respected for it? What is wrong with you? Honestly, do you even KNOW how to be a nice person? I don't enjoy being around people like you, AT ALL. That is why I determined days ago to try my best to ignore you.

But I will answer you, though I know I should not be messing with people who have nothing to learn.

Of course God does things that are against His will, in giving over to human folly. It was in His wrath that He gave Israel a King. HE CHOSE THE KING WHEN THEY INSISTED UPON IT. I don't need to give the citations, you know where to look it up. When Moses wanted a running mate, God didn't like it, did He? But He said, "There take your bro, Aaron." And when the burden was heavy on Moses, God PERMITTED Moses to choose helpers. But He didn't like that, either.

"The Lord permitted Moses to choose for himself the most faithful and efficient men to share the responsibility with him. Their influence would assist in holding in check the violence of the people, and quelling insurrection; yet serious evils would eventually result from their promotion. They would never have been chosen had Moses manifested faith corresponding to the evidences he had witnessed of God's power and goodness. But he had magnified his own burdens and services, almost losing sight of the fact that he was only the instrument by which God had wrought. He was not excusable in indulging, in the slightest degree, the spirit of murmuring that was the curse of Israel. Had he relied fully upon God, the Lord would have guided him continually and would have given him strength for every emergency."  {PP 380.2} 

Do you have kids? Have you ever given them advice on their conduct, to keep them safe, though that conduct was not in accordance with what you know to be right? I don't believe in hunting, for instance. Yet, I would instruct my son in safe shooting practices. I don't believe in premarital relations. Yet, I would instruct a promiscuous daughter to use protection.
    

[Green Cochoa]

Kevin,

I would have you notice that I have been addressing the subject matter and the reasoning of the theological concepts under discussion here.  I have no need to defend myself--I wish only to defend the truth.  In that spirit, however, let me point out that Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and you are accusing me.  You chose to focus on me, and then to focus on a Biblical diversion, in place of supporting your hermeneutic regarding the children of Israel being commanded by God to destroy the pagan nations of Canaan.  You have stated clearly that God was just working with them where they were at.  This insinuates that the people should have done something other than what God had directed them to do--something better.  Ultimately, this kind of reasoning enthrones human opinion as more to be depended upon than the plain commands of God. 

It is not "snotty" to point out the truth, although the truth may seem cutting to you.  Truth in the Bible is represented as a sword.  It does sometimes cut, and that is its purpose.  God aims to cut out the sin and error, as a surgeon removing a cancer, so that we may be saved.

Once again, any chain of reasoning that leads to a conclusion that God's commands do not express His will, or that they should be disregarded or distrusted, is the devil's sophistry.  Only the devil would insinuate such doubts upon the minds of others.  When Jesus spoke the words "Get thee behind me Satan," He did not call Peter Satan, nor was He being "snotty," but He addressed the influence that had stood back of Peter's words.  I, in like manner, speak boldly here against Satan's sophistry, and not against you personally. 

[Kevin Straub]

12 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Kevin,

I would have you notice that I have been addressing the subject matter and the reasoning of the theological concepts under discussion here.  I have no need to defend myself--I wish only to defend the truth.  In that spirit, however, let me point out that Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and you are accusing me.  You chose to focus on me, and then to focus on a Biblical diversion, in place of supporting your hermeneutic regarding the children of Israel being commanded by God to destroy the pagan nations of Canaan.  You have stated clearly that God was just working with them where they were at.  This insinuates that the people should have done something other than what God had directed them to do--something better.  Ultimately, this kind of reasoning enthrones human opinion as more to be depended upon than the plain commands of God. 

It is not "snotty" to point out the truth, although the truth may seem cutting to you.  Truth in the Bible is represented as a sword.  It does sometimes cut, and that is its purpose.  God aims to cut out the sin and error, as a surgeon removing a cancer, so that we may be saved.

Once again, any chain of reasoning that leads to a conclusion that God's commands do not express His will, or that they should be disregarded or distrusted, is the devil's sophistry.  Only the devil would insinuate such doubts upon the minds of others.  When Jesus spoke the words "Get thee behind me Satan," He did not call Peter Satan, nor was He being "snotty," but He addressed the influence that had stood back of Peter's words.  I, in like manner, speak boldly here against Satan's sophistry, and not against you personally. 

1 Sam. 8:6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. 
 8:7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them. 
 

9:15 Now the LORD had told Samuel in his ear a day before Saul came, saying, 
 9:16 To morrow about this time I will send thee a man out of the land of Benjamin, and thou shalt anoint him [to be] captain over my people Israel, that he may save my people out of the hand of the Philistines: for I have looked upon my people, because their cry is come unto me.

Hos. 13:9 O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself; but in me [is] thine help. 
 13:10 I will be thy king: where [is any other] that may save thee in all thy cities? and thy judges of whom thou saidst, Give me a king and princes? 
 13:11 I gave thee a king in mine anger, and took [him] away in my wrath. 
 13:12 The iniquity of Ephraim [is] bound up; his sin [is] hid. 
 

[Green Cochoa]

God sometimes allows people to reap the results of their own wayward course, even helping them in that course to the point where they learn its true outcome and are brought to repentance, as happened with the situation of asking for a king.  This, however, has nothing to do with the times that God gave commands which the people had not been asking or begging for.  Sometimes the commands were fearful to them, or outright unpleasant, and they shrank from carrying them out.  Those who were faithful, obeyed, in spite of their gut response against it.

Consider Abraham being told to sacrifice his son.  He carried out the command, in total faith, despite the horror of it, not knowing an angel would stop him from consummating the act.

Consider the first king of your example, Saul, who was told to utterly destroy the Amalekites in strong and clear terms ("go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass"--1 Sam. 15:3), and who was rejected as king by God when he disobeyed--faithful prophet Samuel carrying out the unpleasant deed of slaying King Agag whom Saul had rebelliously preserved.  God spoke these words to Saul through Samuel that day: "For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king."  (1 Samuel 15:23)

And in like manner, the Israelites had been commanded to destroy the Canaanite nations centuries earlier as they entered the Promised Land.  They did not beg God to do so--hardly!  God was not stooping to where they were at--in fact, God, by His own hand, worked with them against those heathen tribes.  Consider the walls of Jericho.  Faithful Caleb and Joshua took some of the hardest assignments to help encourage the fearful people to be faithful in carrying out the Lord's commands.

[APL]

40 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

I would have you notice that I have been addressing the subject matter and the reasoning of the theological concepts under discussion here.  I have no need to defend myself--I wish only to defend the truth.  In that spirit, however, let me point out that Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and you are accusing me.

The the pot calling the kettle black? 

 

59 minutes ago, Kevin Straub said:

Of course God does things that are against His will, in giving over to human folly. It was in His wrath that He gave Israel a King. HE CHOSE THE KING WHEN THEY INSISTED UPON IT. I don't need to give the citations, you know where to look it up. When Moses wanted a running mate, God didn't like it, did He? But He said, "There take your bro, Aaron." And when the burden was heavy on Moses, God PERMITTED Moses to choose helpers. But He didn't like that, either.

When presenting the obvious truths that connect together, Green has often resisted it quite strongly.  He has rejected the connection for example with divorce.  Did God want divorce?  No.  Did God give laws for divorce?  Yes.  Does this proved God wanted divorce?  No.  Did Israel fight wars?  Yes.  Did God want Israel to fight?  No.  Did God give commands on how to fight?  Yes.  Does this prove that God wanted Israel to fight?  No.  Why did God then deal with the people in this way, giving laws for divorce, commands for how to fight and many more?  Because of the hardness of their heart.  The only one that looks good in all this is God.  And with all the commands on divorce, and war, etc., how did it ultimately end up for Israel?  Not very well.  They crucified their Redeemer, their Savior and Friend.  As Jeremiah wrote, they went backwards not forwards after leaving Egypt.  And yet we hold up Israel as be beacon of light, when it is only a beacon as to how not to ultimately go. Did Israel gain the promised land?  Just look at the world today, then answer is no.

God does not compel disbelief.  "Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap." Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow.  Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. Men act out their own free will, either in accordance with a character placed under the molding of God or a character placed under the harsh rule of Satan. "They would none of my counsel, they despised all my reproof. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices. For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil." Proverbs 1:30-33.  God follows men with appeals and warnings and assurances of compassion, until further opportunities and privileges would be wholly in vain. The responsibility rests upon the sinner. By resisting the Spirit of God today, he prepares the way for a second resistance of light when it comes with mightier power; and thus he will pass from one stage of indifference to another, until, at last, the light will fail to impress him, and he will cease to respond in any measure to the Spirit of God. No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation.  The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan.  Like Israel of old the wicked destroy themselves; they fall by their iniquity. By a life of sin, they have placed themselves so out of harmony with God, their natures have become so debased with evil, that the manifestation of His glory is to them a consuming fire.

 

[Kevin Straub]

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

Kevin,

In that spirit, however, let me point out that Satan is the accuser of the brethren, and you are accusing me. 

Are you accusing me of accusing you of accusing me? Ok, you're right.

<<Sirens and flashing lights>> Quick! We have a winner! A round of applause for the "Club Adventist Hero Biscuit."

[Kevin Straub]

6 hours ago, jackson said:

 

No. You are just playing  "dueling EGW quotes" and committing yourself solely to your quotes while ignoring mine. But I am not ignoring yours, for I have said that in this present life God has taken occasion to directly execute judgment on egregious sinners but more generally permitted the stiff necked sinner to reap what he sowed.; God permits generally yet commands when it is to be a safeguarding lesson for others. That is true love in action.

 

The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. GC 614.2

 So shall I say back to you, "So God always permits  or allows except when He commands"?  Obviously your quote form EGW  "appears" to contradict mine  and vice versa.

 

 As for God commanding destruction of the wicked, it is not a regular occurrence.  I have never seen the earth open up to swallow a sinner or death in one night visited on the first born of both man and beast. But the Bible and the SOP attest to this fact and say that it  was at God's command. You and Kevin refuse to come to grips with these truths , and Kevin spends years and writes a book trying to explain away these truths.

  

Aside from God's dealings with men in this life, we know that there will be a judgment and every man and woman will be judged by their works. After the 1000 years their will be an execution of this judgment and God will be the executioner. This too you and Kevin reject.

 

 Then the wicked saw what they had lost; and fire was breathed from God upon them, and consumed them. This was the Execution of the Judgment. The wicked then received according as the saints in unison with Jesus had meted out to them during the 1000 years. The same fire from God that consumed the wicked, purified the whole earth. EW 54.1

 

 There is the argument that learned men have studied this issue deeply  and have written scholarly papers in favor of a particular doctrine. But inspired counsel notes that:

 One sentence of Scripture is of more value than ten thousand of man’s ideas or arguments (7T p. 71).

There are different fires. The prophetic language you read in inspiration can be highly conflated. We are not used to reading things the way these things are written. The fire unquenchable is one thing. It is defined as a psychoemotional experience and I have shown some of the quotes elsewhere in these discussions. They die at the end of that fire. The fire that consumes the wicked literally, which purifies the earth, is another fire. The wicked are already dead.

The power exercised by holy angels quotation does not say what most people believe it to say and it is not their silver bullet. It is sloppy reading that makes them think this, although at first glance it appears to say what they want it to say. And that is the key, the carnal heart WANTS a vengeance of this type. But I will tell you this: if you are following Jesus' example and His teaching, you will not want this kind of vengeance NOW, nor will you want it THEN. Their suffering will be the result of their choice to reject God, and that result is not that He will torture them. The standard view is a serious cognitive dissonance, requiring the adherent to blindly compartmentalize their view of God, because a torturing God that uses personal power to inject life while burning, is a FIEND. We do not believe in torture. Satan does. The cross proves that. God did not put Christ on the cross. Satan and his followers did.

Please read the following study and until you do, there is no point addressing what I say. You need to read my responses in detail or stay home. Fair enough? The quotation of God and angels destroying supports what we teach, which is DR:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/107170239/The Same Destructive Power_GC 614.2.docx