Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Derockgt]

Hello, 

My name is Derek, I consider myself and evangelical Christian. I attend a non-denominational Church. I am simply here to discuss the Fundamental Belief #24 to get some insight and understanding of this.

There is a sanctuary in heaven, the true tabernacle that the Lord set up and not humans. In it Christ ministers on our behalf, making available to believers the benefits of His atoning sacrifice offered once for all on the cross. At His ascension, He was inaugurated as our great High Priest and, began His intercessory ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the holy place of the earthly sanctuary. In 1844, at the end of the prophetic period of 2300 days, He entered the second and last phase of His atoning ministry, which was typified by the work of the high priest in the most holy place of the earthly sanctuary. It is a work of investigative judgment which is part of the ultimate disposition of all sin, typified by the cleansing of the ancient Hebrew sanctuary on the Day of Atonement. In that typical service the sanctuary was cleansed with the blood of animal sacrifices, but the heavenly things are purified with the perfect sacrifice of the blood of Jesus. The investigative judgment reveals to heavenly intelligences who among the dead are asleep in Christ and therefore, in Him, are deemed worthy to have part in the first resurrection. It also makes manifest who among the living are abiding in Christ, keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, and in Him, therefore, are ready for translation into His everlasting kingdom. This judgment vindicates the justice of God in saving those who believe in Jesus. It declares that those who have remained loyal to God shall receive the kingdom. The completion of this ministry of Christ will mark the close of human probation before the Second Advent. (Lev. 16; Num. 14:34; Ezek. 4:6; Dan. 7:9-27; 8:13, 14; 9:24-27; Heb. 1:3; 2:16, 17; 4:14-16; 8:1-5; 9:11-28; 10:19- 22; Rev. 8:3-5; 11:19; 14:6, 7; 20:12; 14:12; 22:11, 12.)

I've read all the referenced scriptures provide in the church's list provide and I see some connections and not others. 

[Gregory Matthews]

Derek:

You have raised an issue that is exceedingly complex, often misunderstood and misunderstood by SDAs.  I will make a very brief response to certain aspects of this doctrine:

1) Sanctuary in heaven:  This is not to be understood as a building composed of bricks and wood.  God speaks to us in human language and we on earth have not accurate idea related to buildings, etc.

2)  A central component of this SDA doctrine is that at all times we live due to God actively giving us the power today to live.

3) Judgment:  It is not humanity that is the central focus of the judgment.  It is God.  God is on trial before the created beings of the universe.  Back in the beginning of time, there was a rebellion in heaven.  A being we now call Satan rebelled, charged God with misconduct and proposed that people given freedom of choice would chose to reject God and follow his.  This Earth has been the working out of that rebellion.  At the cross, it convinced the unfallen universe that Satan was a false leader and God was right.  Now in this time of  judgment, God is showing the universe that those who will be translated into eternity to live forever with God have had the propensity to sin  removed  from them and they are safe to save.

4) At the same time it will be shown to the universe that those who will not spend eternity with God have exercised their freedom to chose whom they will spend eternity with, God of Stan

5)  Then for eternity God will remove HIs life-giving power from those who do not want to spend it with God and with that life-giving power removed they with all who have sinned go out of existence.

Derek:  In short, the focus of this doctrine is on God, not humanity.

 

 

[JoeMo]

Hi Derek,

My name is Joe (obviously); and I consider myself to be a generic Adventist.  By generic, I mean that although I identify myself with SDA's and honor most of their beliefs and customs, you have hit upon one that I have always had concerns about.  What you have presented above indicates that you have read the SDA perspective on the most Holy Place, the Investigative Judgement, and the significance of 1844.  I will try to summarize my position below.

1. Christ did not enter the Most Holy Place in 1844.  According to Hebrews, He entered it upon His ascension into Heaven sometime around 30 AD.  Read Hebrews 9, and 10:19.  As much as I appreciate Ellen White, when I read something of hers that conflicts with scripture, I must take scripture over her word.

2.I don't buy the SDA interpretation of 1 day in prophetic time equals one year of "real time" applies to all future prophecy in general - it applies specifically to the judgements (not prophecies) put on Israel in two specific instances (See Numbers 14:32 and Ezek. 4:4-16).  If it applies to prophecy in general, the millennium would really be 360,000 years long if one carried the "day for a year" proposition all the way through revelation!

More later - headed for church.

[8thdaypriest]

Hello Derek,

I'm with Joe on this one.  I do not believe that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place on October 22nd, 1844, to begin an "investigative judgment".  God doesn't need to "investigate" anything.  Jesus said, "I know my sheep." 

Why would it take Jesus 175 years plus, to determine who He will save? 

It was called "the DAY of Atonement".  The DAY.  One DAY. 

Even if you applied the "day for year" principle, it would mean "one year" - not 175 years plus.  Jesus must ENTER the Most Holy Place and EXIT from same, on the SAME "DAY".  

All the Spring Feast prophecies (Passover, First Fruits, Pentecost) were fulfilled at the exact time prophesied, and over the amount of time prophesied.  Why would the DAY of Atonement be different?

I believe the ancient appointed Day of Atonement was an ACTED PROPHECY.  That part I agree with.  I just don't believe it was fulfilled back in 1844.  I believe it WILL BE FULFILLED at the Second Coming.  THAT will be the "day of judgment" when those who do not belong to Christ will be "cut off" from "the people".  That will be the DAY when the "scapegoat" will be banished to the "uninhabited place". 

According to Scripture, probation CLOSED for Israelites when the High Priest ENTERED the Most Holy Place.   The early Adventists believed this.  When Jesus did not immediately appear in glory to execute judgment, rather than abandon their theory, they changed to teaching that Jesus had ENTERED the MHP, but probation would close at some future point just before Jesus would EXIT the MHP to return in glory.  At first they thought this would be 7 years.  (The Torah is full of 7s, but there is no 7 connected with the Day of Atonement, except that it falls in the 7th month of the year.)  When their children began to reach "the age of responsibility" , the time that Jesus might remain in the MHP began to extend farther and farther into the future.  

There are a few studies on my website which you might find helpful. 

My website is prophecyviewpoint.com.

http://prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/Book Chapters/13-Judgment Day.pdf

PS:  I do not discuss EGW or 1844 on my website. 

 

 

[Derockgt]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

Hi Derek,

My name is Joe (obviously); and I consider myself to be a generic Adventist.  By generic, I mean that although I identify myself with SDA's and honor most of their beliefs and customs, you have hit upon one that I have always had concerns about.  What you have presented above indicates that you have read the SDA perspective on the most Holy Place, the Investigative Judgement, and the significance of 1844.  I will try to summarize my position below.

1. Christ did not enter the Most Holy Place in 1844.  According to Hebrews, He entered it upon His ascension into Heaven sometime around 30 AD.  Read Hebrews 9, and 10:19.  As much as I appreciate Ellen White, when I read something of hers that conflicts with scripture, I must take scripture over her word.

2.I don't buy the SDA interpretation of 1 day in prophetic time equals one year of "real time" applies to all future prophecy in general - it applies specifically to the judgements (not prophecies) put on Israel in two specific instances (See Numbers 14:32 and Ezek. 4:4-16).  If it applies to prophecy in general, the millennium would really be 360,000 years long if one carried the "day for a year" proposition all the way through revelation!

More later - headed for church.

Thank you for your reply. Based on my reading and study of The day of Atonement Leviticus 16, and reading Hebrews 9 makes it clear that Jesus didn't enter in the Most Holy Place on 1844 as you agreed with. I have a Coworker who is and Adventist and we sometimes have theological discussions. I found this Forum and thought I would ask other Adventists their thoughts on this topic.

[Derockgt]

25 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe the ancient appointed Day of Atonement was an ACTED PROPHECY.  That part I agree with.  I just don't believe it was fulfilled back in 1844.  I believe it WILL BE FULFILLED at the Second Coming.  THAT will be the "day of judgment" when those who do not belong to Christ will be "cut off" from "the people".  That will be the DAY when the "scapegoat" will be banished to the "uninhabited place". 

According to Scripture, probation CLOSED for Israelites when the High Priest ENTERED the Most Holy Place.   The early Adventists believed this.  When Jesus did not immediately appear in glory to execute judgment, rather than abandon their theory, they changed to teaching that Jesus had ENTERED the MHP, but probation would close at some future point just before Jesus would EXIT the MHP to return in glory.  At first they thought this would be 7 years.  (The Torah is full of 7s, but there is no 7 connected with the Day of Atonement, except that it falls in the 7th month of the year.)  When their children began to reach "the age of responsibility" , the time that Jesus might remain in the MHP began to extend farther and farther into the future.  

 

 

 

Thank you for the reply, 

Could you clarify for me what I quoted from your post? If I am understanding, you do not believe that the Atonement has been fulfilled? If not then who is the "scapegoat" you are referring to?

For the probation period you are referring to being closed, could you provide me with the Scripture verses?

Thank you.

 

[Gerr]

Hi Derek,

This is indeed a very complex subject because it involves an understanding of the OT sanctuary/tabernacle services found in Exodus and Leviticus, the decrees in Ezra, the prophecies of Dan 2,7,8, & 9, the book of Hebrews (which deals with the heavenly sanctuary/tabernacle and the high priestly ministry of Christ), as well as portions of Revelation.   It is therefore not surprising that SDAs are not unanimous in their understanding although #24 is the official teaching of the church.  If you want to really delve into it, there are books that we could refer you to and you can make up your own mind.  BTW, the year-day principle is not a SDA invention.  It goes a long ways back.  Many if not most of the Protestant reformers used it.  I believe even Sir Isaac Newton used it in his exposition of the prophecies of Daniel.

[Gerr]

Thanks, Jackson, for taking the time to explain the confusion that translators have caused because of their inconsistent translation of those three Greek words. 

[Derockgt]

On ‎03‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 6:10 PM, jackson said:

Be careful Derockgt. Hebrews 9 does not say Jesus entered the Most Holy Place to plead His blood upon His ascension. It says He entered the First Apartment, and that would be in accordance with the pattern laid down in Leviticus.

Let's look carefully at Heb. 9.

The Book of Hebrews provides clear statements as to the words being used to describe different apartments in both the earthly and heavenly sanctuary.

Hagia,  Hagion  and  Hagia hagion

Hagion- The sanctuary as a whole-

Hagia- The first apartment or holy place- Heb 9:2; 9:12

Hagia Hagion- The second apartment or holiest place  Heb 9:3

 

 In Hebrews 9:2 the first apartment/holy place is described and the word used for the first apartment is "hagia " in the original Greek.

 

Notice that most Bibles including the NIV and Amer Std get this right. KJV translates "hagia" here as sanctuary, which is not definitive enough and should be translated "first apartment"

 

Heb 9:2   For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein [was] the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the sanctuary.( wrong ,should be holy place)  KJV

Heb 9:2 A tabernacle was set up. In its first room were the lampstand, the table and the consecrated bread; this was called the Holy Place. NIV

Heb 9:2  For there was a tabernacle prepared, the first, wherein were the candlestick, and the table, and the showbread; which is called the Holy place. American Standard Version

 

Now Paul describes the most Holy Place and the word he uses for it is Hagia Hagion. Most translations get this right

Heb  9:3   And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; KJV

Heb 9:3 Behind the second curtain was a room called the Most Holy Place, NIV

Heb 9:3  And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holy of holies; American Standard

 

Then when we go to verse 9:12, Paul states that Jesus goes into the "hagia". From verse 9:2 we know that this is the word he uses to describe the first apartment/holy place. So Paul is clearly stating that Jesus does go into the First Apartment with His blood. Most translations get this right, but the NIV now translates "hagia" as most holy place" while the translated the same word in 9:2 at holy place- obviously an error for Paul has already defined the terms he is using  and hagia is "first apartment".

 

KJV. Heb  9:12   Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place having obtained eternal redemption [for us] 

 NIV  Heb 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place(wrong, should be Holy Place) once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption

 Amer.. Std Heb 9:12  nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption. American Standard

 

 Since Jesus is both innocent victim and High Priest, He only had to offer Himself once. The same blood He shed  at Calvary could be pleaded for all sincere seeking forgiveness for sins until the close of human probation..  As High Priest now, He need not  have to shed blood over and over again for each repenting soul

 

So the Bible is clear on this subject. Jesus, sometime shortly after His ascension, pleaded His blood to the Father in the fist apartment of the Heavenly Sanctuary. This is in accordance to the pattern set in Leviticus. All doctrines that deny this are contradicting scripture and need to be revised or discarded.

Thank you Jackson for the breakdown, I have looked at this while conducting my research and taken it into consideration. This is compelling support, I think with the complexity of the Greek to English could be cause for some confusion. Because the Author didn't refer to the Most Holy place in the same verbiage does that negate that he references it? Hagia Hagion is holy holy's now if I say Most Holy or Holy of Holy's are those different if I don't use the consistent Most Holy verbiage?   I will break down my understanding. Lets look at the contexts of the verses, and what the author of Hebrews is referencing.  

Hebrews chapter 9 begins with a description of the earthly sanctuary service. As part of this description of the earthly sanctuary the author points out the limited access of the earthly high priest who could only go into God's presence once per year, on the day of atonement:

Heb 9:6 (ESV)These preparations having thus been made, the priests go regularly into the first section, performing their ritual duties, 7but into the second only the high priest goes, and he but once a year, and not without taking blood, which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins of the people.

This shows the limited nature of access to God in the old covenant sanctuary. Even the high priest had very limited access to God's presence. He alone could enter once per year into God's direct presence, and not without blood. He did not stay but withdrew again until the next year.

This description of the earthly sanctuary, including the day of atonement, sets the stage for the argument in the rest of the chapter. The author demonstrates that Jesus' sanctuary ministry surpasses the old covenant sanctuary service. The author's description of the day of atonement at the beginning of the chapter clues us in to where he is going. He is leading up to the argument that Jesus fulfilled this entry of the high priest once per year.

Heb 9:11(ESV)But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come,^e then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) 12he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Jesus' entry here is described with a number of specifics.

1. Jesus entered as high priest into the sanctuary.

2. He entered by means of blood.  Blood was not necessary to enter the first compartment of the sanctuary. Blood was required, however, to enter the second compartment. So this entry of Jesus included ministration in the heavenly equivalent of the second compartment.

3. Jesus blood is said to be superior to that of goats and calves. While there are various sacrifices spelled out in the Old Testament, few involved entry into the sanctuary with blood. The reference to goats and calves reduces further the possibilities for the old testament service being referenced. Specifically, goats blood was only brought into the sanctuary on two occasions, both involving the Most Holy Place. The first service involving goat blood and entry into the sanctuary is the service to inaugurate the sanctuary (described in Leviticus chapters 7 and 8). The second is the Day of Atonement.

4. The entry of Jesus with blood secured eternal redemption. This shows the finality of the blood work Jesus is performing here. If there was more blood atonement to be provided, how could this be said in the first century?

The last passage that spells out the Day of Atonement fulfillment of the cleansing of the sanctuary is the most clear yet.

Heb 9:23  Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24  For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.
Heb 9:25  Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own

In this passage we see the following:

1. It was necessary for the earthly sanctuary to be purified. It is necessary for the heavenly realities, of which the earthly were a copy, to be purified with better sacrifices.

2. The fulfillment of this cleansing is then spelled out. Christ has entered into heaven itself, to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. Where in the sanctuary does the Bible teach that the "presence of God" exists? Lev 16:2and the Lord said to Moses, “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat that is on the ark, so that he may not die. For I will appear in the cloud over the mercy seat. The place of the Lord's presence in the Old Testament tabernacle was upon the mercy seat in the Most Holy Place. In order for Christ to have entered into the "presence of God" He must have entered into the Most Holy Place. This is further validated by the fact that the authors of the NT repeatedly referred to Jesus as sitting or standing on the right hand of God

3. This presentation of Christ before God, where He presents or offers Himself the completed sacrifice for sin, is contrasted with the entry of the high priest on the day of atonement.  The high priest had to enter in once every year, again and again, year after year.  However, Jesus entered once and presented Himself before God, and only had to do so once. Just as the earthly high priest would minister blood in God's immediate presence while cleansing the earthly sanctuary, so Jesus ascended to God and ministered the sacrifice of Himself that had been made on the cross.

I will have to disagree with your conclusion.

So we see from Hebrews that Jesus' death and ministration of His blood

- made purification for sin

- secured eternal redemption

- cleansed the heavenly things with better sacrifices

As this was all done before the time of the writing of Hebrews.

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

Derek,

It seems like you have done your homework.  Nice response!  I'm at work now (sorry I didn't respond more completely this weekend).  Hoping to correspond with you more in the future.

[JoeMo]

Hi Derek,

As you can probably already see, Adventists don't even agree among themselves on some of the points you bring up.  For example, Jackson refers to the "2300 day for a year" prophecy in Daniel (Dan. 8:14).  The angel never told Daniel that "a day for a year" POV applies to eschatology.  In fact, the angel interpreting this same vision specifically tells Daniel that these visions pertain to the end times (Dan. 8:17, 8:19, and 8:26).  So how could the 2300 "day for a year" prophecies begin within a few years of Daniels' death?

Traditional SDA's also apply the day for a year principle to the 70 weeks of years discussed in Daniel 9 as ending with the stoning of Stephen in about 34 AD. A careful read Daniel 9:24 - 29  breaks out the 70th week from the previous 69 weeks at the end of the 69th week an anointed one is put to death.  (the capital letters for "Messiah" or "Anointed One" were added by translators but were not in the original text).  Traditional Adventism says this "annointed one is Christ.   But notice Daniel 9:27:

" He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”  

Does this "anointed one sound like Christ or some other "anointed one"?  Remember - all kings and princes back then - good or evil - were anointed.  Could the "messiah" that sets up the abomination that causes desolation be Christ?  Traditional SDA's interpret the "middle of the seven" as when Christ was crucified; and the end on the "seven" is the stoning of Stephen.  My current personal opinion is that the last "seven" is the time of trouble; and the last half of the last "seven" is the Great Tribulation (i.e., 1,260 days; time, times, and half a time) or Time of Jacob's distress referred to in Jeremiah 30.

If you were expecting a clear uniform explanation of these difficult passages, I hope you aren't disappointed.  Adventists are no more unified that Catholics (re: position on birth control) or evangelicals (e.g., position of gays) are.  Your best bet is to be like a noble Berean and study there things out for yourself.  In the end, you will be judged on your faithfulness to the Father and the Son and the intimacy of your relationship with them, not the doctrinal correctness of your bible interpretation.  We have all eternity to develop correct judgements based onfuture face-to-face discussions with jesus in the Kingdom, if we love Him now.

[8thdaypriest]

On 3/19/2017 at 0:21 AM, jackson said:

 

I agree that Christ did NOT enter the MHP when He ascended.  He entered the "holy place" to begin the ministry of the "first apartment" - though Heaven is not divided into separate "apartments".  The separate apartments represented different phases of Christ's work. 

Obviously - where God the Father is, IS the holiest PLACE.  Jesus sat down at the right hand of the Father.  But He would not fulfill the prophetic TYPE known as the Most Holy Place ministry, until near the END of this age. 

Jesus is the One on trial in the final judgment of Daniel 7:9-10, and with Him all of Israel (Israel redeemed - which He represents).  

This is NOT a case of Jesus "investigating" to see which human beings He will save.  "The LORD knows those who are His!" (2Tim. 2:9).  

The Day of Atonement was all about putting the blame where it belongs! - on the head of Satan - the "scapegoat". 

I disagree that a ministry of teaching the Gospel was to continue on earth, AFTER "the hour of His judgment has come".   The "Good News" which the angel is announcing is that the hour of Christs judgment has come.  This is "the hour" when dominion will be given to Christ,  (Daniel  7: 13-14) and He will immediately return for His own. 

In Daniel 11:15, the 7th (and last) trumpet sounds.  "And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!" 

This is the day when dominion is taken from Satan and given to Christ - and that means Christ reigns. 

v. says of Christ, "you have taken your great power and reigned".  v. 18 says "Your wrath has come, AND the time of the dead that they should be judged, AND that it is time to reward the servants of God, both prophets and saints, and all who fear Your name AND it is time to "destroy those who destroy the earth."  These are things that happen at the SC.   [I believe the 7 vial plagues begin on the day that Christ returns, after His own people have been removed from planet earth.] 

Four things: 

wrath -- judgment of the dead -- reward for the servants of God -- destroy those who destroy earth

God's WRATH is poured out as the 7 last vial plagues. 

The wicked dead are judged when they are resurrected at the SC (See Daniel 12:2-3).  They are judged and executed on that day.  There is no reason to wake them up again, a thousand years later, to judge them AGAIN, and execute them AGAIN. 

The redeemed are rewarded on that day - with everlasting life.

Earth is destroyed - along with those who destroyed.

[Derockgt]

13 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Hi Derek,

As you can probably already see, Adventists don't even agree among themselves on some of the points you bring up.  For example, Jackson refers to the "2300 day for a year" prophecy in Daniel (Dan. 8:14).  The angel never told Daniel that "a day for a year" POV applies to eschatology.  In fact, the angel interpreting this same vision specifically tells Daniel that these visions pertain to the end times (Dan. 8:17, 8:19, and 8:26).  So how could the 2300 "day for a year" prophecies begin within a few years of Daniels' death?

Traditional SDA's also apply the day for a year principle to the 70 weeks of years discussed in Daniel 9 as ending with the stoning of Stephen in about 34 AD. A careful read Daniel 9:24 - 29  breaks out the 70th week from the previous 69 weeks at the end of the 69th week an anointed one is put to death.  (the capital letters for "Messiah" or "Anointed One" were added by translators but were not in the original text).  Traditional Adventism says this "annointed one is Christ.   But notice Daniel 9:27:

" He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”  

Does this "anointed one sound like Christ or some other "anointed one"?  Remember - all kings and princes back then - good or evil - were anointed.  Could the "messiah" that sets up the abomination that causes desolation be Christ?  Traditional SDA's interpret the "middle of the seven" as when Christ was crucified; and the end on the "seven" is the stoning of Stephen.  My current personal opinion is that the last "seven" is the time of trouble; and the last half of the last "seven" is the Great Tribulation (i.e., 1,260 days; time, times, and half a time) or Time of Jacob's distress referred to in Jeremiah 30.

If you were expecting a clear uniform explanation of these difficult passages, I hope you aren't disappointed.  Adventists are no more unified that Catholics (re: position on birth control) or evangelicals (e.g., position of gays) are.  Your best bet is to be like a noble Berean and study there things out for yourself.  In the end, you will be judged on your faithfulness to the Father and the Son and the intimacy of your relationship with them, not the doctrinal correctness of your bible interpretation.  We have all eternity to develop correct judgements based onfuture face-to-face discussions with jesus in the Kingdom, if we love Him now.

Thank you Joe, I also look forward to further discussions. We seem to hold similar interstation's. Yes I have been researching for the last several months having a coworker that is a SDA, and I was looking for discussions with other SDAs.

[Derockgt]

Thank you for the response Jackson, I will try my best to respond. I will keep my responses in blue for consistency.

In Heb 9:2 , Paul gives a description of the First Apartment of the Sanctuary, and He calls it the “Hagia” In Heb 9:3 Paul speaks of what is behind the second veil and calls it the  “Hagia Hagion” Paul then has described both apartments and named them. Now going to verse 9:12, we see that Paul says that Jesus with His blood entered the Hagia. There is no confusion here over terms. Paul says Jesus entered the First Apartment of the heavenly Sanctuary.

 

While it is true that the Greek word ta hagia can be translated, “holy place”, “Most Holy Place”, or “sanctuary ”, it is the context of Hebrews 9 and 10 which indicates positively that ta hagia is meant to apply to the Most Holy Place in Hebrews 9:12, 25-28, 10:19-20. While priest could enter daily into the first apartment or Holy Place only the high priest could enter the second apartment or Most Holy Place once a year and only with a blood sacrifice(Hebrews 9:6-7). Hebrews 9:11-12 goes on to both compare and contrast the work of Christ as our High Priest with the work of the earthly high priest. Christ as our High Priest entered once for all, not once a year, and not by means of the blood of goats and bulls but by means of his own blood into the heavenly Most Holy Place.

The context of Hebrews 9 fully supports the New International Version’s translation of ta hagia in Hebrews 9:12:

“He (Christ) did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption” (Heb. 9:12, NIV).

The wonderful message of Hebrews, was that because Christ had already made a complete atonement for sins (Heb. 9:26, 28; 10:12), sinful man who accepts by faith Christ's completed atonement can “…have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us, through the curtain, that is, his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God. Let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith. . .” (Heb. 10:19-22, NIV)

See also Heb 6:19-20 19We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, 20where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

 I refer you to  Lev 4:13-18. The sacrificial blood for the sin of the entire congregation was required to be brought into the First Apartment. Was not Jesus’ sacrifice for the sins of the entire human race?

I stated that blood was not always required to enter the first compartment. Blood was however always required for the second compartment. Hebrews contrasts goats and calves blood. Specifically, goats blood was only brought into the sanctuary on two occasions, both involving the Most Holy Place.

 Bringing blood into the sanctuary is symbolic of bringing sin into the Sanctuary. This signified that the sin was forgiven but not blotted out . The sins now had to await the Day of Atonement when they would be removed from the Sanctuary and placed on the scapegoat. This would be the “cleansing of the sanctuary”, which in Leviticus would be on the 10^th day of the seventh month of each year.

There is not a single Bible verse anywhere in the Old or New Testament that says that confessed sins are transferred into the holy sanctuary or defile the sanctuary in any way. In the Old Testatment, the sins of the penitent believer were laid upon the sacrificial animal and the innocent animal was killed. This sacrificial act cancelled out the sins of the sinner, and those sins ceased to exist. This is proven by the fact that the sin offering then became "most holy" (Num. 18:9). It did not carry sin, for the sin was eradicated by its death. The Bible teaches that the blood sanctifies or makes holy (Heb. 9:13). Jesus said his blood gives "life" (John 6:53). His blood is never described anywhere in the Bible as a transportation mechanism to move sins from sinners into the heavenly sanctuary. Even on earth the sanctuary of Moses was defiled by the act of sin, not by its confession. (Num. 19:13,20; Lev. 20:3)

When the sacrifice died as a sin offering at the entrance of the sanctuary, the payment for the confessed sin was complete. The ministering priest collected its blood which had become most holy (Lev. 4:20; 5:6; 6:7, 25-27; Numb. 18:9). The fat portions of the animal were placed on the altar of burnt offering, thus again confirming its holiness (Ex. 29:37). Depending on the circumstances, either the blood or portions of its flesh (eaten by the priest) were also brought into the sanctuary -- again making them most holy (Numb. 18:9).

The blood was brought inside the sanctuary, not to defile it, but as a proof (receipt of payment rendered) that the redemption price had already been fully paid. The priest announced to the penitent that “an atonement for him before the LORD” had been made and that he was “forgiven” of his “trespass” (Lev. 4:20; 5:6 and 6:7).

Sacrificial blood always “cleansed” or “washed away” sin. Sacrificial blood did not transfer sin to another place (to be dealt with later) only to defile that other place -- the Most Holy Place in heaven! ...

In fact, the death penalty awaited any priest who dared to bring anything defiled into the sanctuary (Exod. 28:43).

The vicarious death of the innocent sacrificial animal allowed the priest to grant forgiveness (Rom. 3:25; Heb. 9:15). The sin had disappeared! The sin itself had been washed away! The sin itself never entered beyond the entrance of the inner court into that sanctuary itself. ...

The priest did not “bear SIN” nor did he “transfer sin” into the sanctuary. Like Christ, he typically bore the GUILT (or punishment) of sin for the sinner. The blood was “proof of payment” which was presented to God.

The Aaronic priest was performing a ritual which had formerly been a required punishment by every male head-of-household. The priest was performing a sanctified and necessary act of reconciliation--not defilement. ...

All sacrificial animals were types of Jesus Christ. You are wrong teaching that the daily, weekly, monthly and seasonal blood sacrifices defiled the temple while the yearly Day of Atonement blood cleaned it. Shockingly, this theology teaches that Jesus Himself was, and still is, the greatest polluter of the heavenly sanctuary because he bore, and is still transferring sins into it…The Bible presents the blood of Christ as the cleansing medium for sin. It is never represented as defiling in any sense.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

 Was Peter, as he preached to the crowd in the temple after the healing of the lame man, intending to point to a future blotting out of sins?

Acts 2:38	Acts 3:19
“Repent ye and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ	“Repent ye, therefore turn again
unto the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”	that your sins may be blotted out that there may come seasons of refreshment from the presence of the Lord.

Peter’s use of blotting out of sins had the same meaning as remission of sins. The clear intent of Peter’s words pointed not to a future blotting out of sins, but to a present blotting out (or remission) of sins in A.D. 31 for all who on the day they heard Peter speak accepted Christ as Messiah.

Then the sanctuary is symbolically cleansed of the  sins of the people and placed on the head of Satan. It is then and only then that anyone has eternal redemption.

1.If, as Seventh-day Adventists claim, the scapegoat is a figure of Satan then we are faced with a lot of problems. How can the high priest confess his sins and the sins of  Israel over Satan? Remember the scapegoat is for atonement for Israel to God. Can God’s people make atonement with Satan? NO. Will Satan forgive them and remove their sins? NO.

2.By placing the sins of Israel on the scapegoat does this mean that Satan is now carrying their confessed sins and will be punished for them? NO. The Scapegoat is only a picture of Christ carrying away our sins. The new covenant calls the old covenant laws a shadow of the reality of Christ which is the finished work of Christ. Col 2:13-17.

3.The scapegoat was sent away alive bearing confessed sins. Can this represent Satan, who will be cast into the fires of Hell at the end of the world? NO. If the scapegoat was a representation of Satan, then the goat should have been burned alive as Satan will, instead of being set free.

 4.Can the scapegoat represent Christ, who bore the sins of the world to the cross? YES. The first goat represented Jesus bearing the sins of the world and covering them with his blood. The scapegoat represented Christ removing sins from his people.

5.Did Jesus fulfill the scapegoat being let out into the wilderness? Jesus did not have to fulfill every minute detail of the sanctuary service. The scapegoat being led by a man into the wilderness was necessary to show that the sins of God’s people were separated from them and removed a long distance away from them. Jesus did not have to fulfill the type by going out into the wilderness being led by a man, as did the goat. Jesus did not fulfill having lots cast for him to be determined by God to offer himself on Calvary. The scapegoat was simply an illustration of Jesus’ plan to remove sin and restore man, so God can accept him. This is the atonement.

6.The two goats that were chosen for a sin offering had to be without defects for the atonement to God. Lev. 4:3,23,28,32. We ask this question, could the scapegoat without defects be a representation of Satan? NO. Satan is far from being without defects. He is a liar and a murder from the beginning. Only a goat without defects could represent Christ.

7.Is there a Bible text that indicates that Satan bears confessed sins of God’s people or will be punished for them? NO. Satan will never bear the confessed sins of God’s people neither will he be punished for them. Jesus has bore the punishment and paid the price for our sins.

8.Satan can never bear our sins. It is God himself that removes our transgressions. God tells us through the writer of Hebrews that in the new covenant, “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.” Never does God tell us in his word that he will lay the sins of God's people on Satan.

Heb 10:16 - 17 (NIV) “This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds.” Then he adds: “Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”

Only Jesus Bore and Removed Our Sins

Psa 103:12 (NIV) "as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us."

1 Pet 2:24 (NIV) "He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; by his wounds you have been healed."

Isa 53:6 NIV) "We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all."

Isa 53:11 (NIV) "After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied ; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities."

Thank you for the Discussions. I can see that we are going to be firmly planted in our beliefs, we will just have to agree to disagree.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Derockgt said:

There is not a single Bible verse anywhere in the Old or New Testament that says that confessed sins are transferred into the holy sanctuary or defile the sanctuary in any way.

How then does the Temple become defiled?

NKJ  Ezekiel 45:18 `Thus says the Lord GOD: "In the first month, on the first day of the month, you shall take a young bull without blemish and cleanse the sanctuary. 19 "The priest shall take some of the blood of the sin offering and put it on the doorposts of the temple, on the four corners of the ledge of the altar, and on the gateposts of the gate of the inner court. 20 "And so you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who has sinned unintentionally or in ignorance. Thus you shall make atonement for the temple.

I have work to do outside.  Will get back with you. 

[8thdaypriest]

10 hours ago, jackson said:

The Day of Atonement was all about putting the blame where it belongs! - on the head of Satan - the "scapegoat".

 No!, Satan is not the blame for our sins. There is no excuse for sin. Satan can tempt but he cannot force you to sin. He is judged for His sins and the sins of those who repented and forsook them, but the wicked are judged for their own sins. One cannot in good conscience say “the devil made me do it”

Jackson,  you trivialize my response.

I did NOT say that we can blame Satan for our own personal choices.  I believe that God (and the Heavenly Court) will identify Satan as the initial and ultimate cause of all sin - because of his rebellion against the way of Yahweh, and because he has deceived, and because he has lied concerning the true character of Yahweh.  Satan will be held responsible FOR the death of Jesus. 

NIV  Leviticus 16:20 "When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites-- all their sins-- and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task.

ALL the sin of ISRAEL was put onto the head of the live goat (which I believe represents Satan).   

The goat was then released in the "uninhabited place".   I personally believe the "uninhabited place" will be this earth, destroyed by Satan.  It will remain desolate for 1000 years.  It will later be restored to life by Christ, at the end of the 1000 years.

[8thdaypriest]

26 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

  3 hours ago, Derockgt said:

There is not a single Bible verse anywhere in the Old or New Testament that says that confessed sins are transferred into the holy sanctuary or defile the sanctuary in any way.

NIV  Leviticus 16:20 "When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites-- all their sins-- and put them on the goat's head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task."

NIV  Leviticus 16:32 "The priest who is anointed and ordained to succeed his father as high priest is to make atonement. He is to put on the sacred linen garments 33 and make atonement for the Most Holy Place, for the tent of meeting and the altar, and for the priests and all the members of the community."

Why then would atonement be made FOR the Tabernacle - if it had not become defiled in some way?

[JoeMo]

Hi Derek,

I have to agree with 8th-day priest (aka Rachel) that the scapegoat is satan.  The goat that is sacrificed represents Christ in my opinion.  The goat that is sent into the wilderness represents satan in the sense that satan will be sent away to a hostile "wilderness" (Sheol) or Tararus or the "abyss" carrying the sins of the ignorant or debilitated (mostly unconfessed).  In ancient Hebrew thinking, the wilderness is the dwelling place of evil and unclean things - where sin belongs. The wilderness spoken of was not a pristine secluded mountainside covered with verdant meadows and tall pine trees.  It was a desert - the dwelling place of scorpions, jackals, and snakes; and the dwelling place of evil pagan gods like Baal and Marduk.  Hence, on the day of Atonement, the Lamb that was slain represents Christ who takes away the sins of the world; and the scapegoat represents satan - the one who introduced sin to Adam and Eve, who passes sin down to all humanity.

Where I don't necessarily agree with Rachel is where this wilderness is.  Rachel believes that all life remaining on earth will be destroyed by the 7 last plagues while the saints are protected in heaven during the millennium.; where I believe that there will still be pockets of human life remaining on the earth who will be ruled with a rod of iron on the earth by Jesus and the saints.  I won't say she's wrong - she's usually right.  I believe satan will be confined to the 'Abyss" described in Revelation 9, 11, 17 and 20.  Some will say the "Abyss" is the broken, desolate, and uninhabited earth after the plagues and 2nd resurrection; but I think not.  For consistency's sake, I believe the abyss out of which demons come in Rev. 9 (while the earth is still intact and populated with billions of people) is the same abyss into which satan is thrown in Rev. 20.

While we may not all agree on all eschatology, I don't think where we spend the millennium is a "salvational" truth.  If I end up having to spend 1,000 years or eternity in heaven hanging out with God, I won't be embarrassed cuz Rachel was right and I was wrong.  I will be thrilled to be there or wherever else the Lord has me, as long as he will have me!

To get some really good studies, see Rachel's website at http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/.     

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, jackson said:

Rachel,

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you meant Satan was to blame for our sins and we were not to blame. You explained it more clearly to me above, and I agree with all you have said there.

I might add that only the sins that went into the sanctuary, i.e., those repented and forsaken, went onto the head of Satan. Those known  sins not repented and brought into the sanctuary were left for the wicked to bear in the judgment.

 

Thanks Jackson. 

I agree that the confessed sins of Israel (which includes all grafted in Gentile believers) were confessed over the head of the scapegoat.  One is not "forgiven" because one has Hebrew DNA. 

Also included were sins of unintentional ignorance.  These sins were not confessed because they were not "known" to the one who sinned. 

On 3/22/2017 at 0:26 AM, jackson said:

This is an investigation to show all of Creation the evidence for why some are chosen for eternal life and many are not., and the evidence of the fairness of it all.

Rachel answers:

One would think that after observing the selfishness, and outright evil behavior of humans for some 6000 years (with the resulting destruction/pain) the super-intelligent unfallen beings would UNDERSTAND WHY most of them need to die.  What they don't understand is why ANY of them should live.   WHY preserve any of them for eternal life? 

I think this is more likely a judgment for or against Christ's desire to preserve part of humanity, rather than allowing them to go down to oblivion.  

Has Christ demonstrated that He can rehabilitate humankind to the point where they will not rebel again, bringing further pain and chaos?   Those individuals who surrender fully to Christ, and walk with Him through testing and trial, demonstrate to unfallen beings that Christ CAN do it, therefore it is safe to resurrect those who only began the process.  

[Samie]

14 hours ago, jackson said:

There is a sacrifice that makes an atonement for sin and there is a final atonement that removes all confessed sin from the sanctuary, putting it on the head of a scapegoat. You are confusing the two. Jesus' blood need only be offered once because He is both the sacrificial offering and the High Priest, and He need only die once. His blood will make an atonement for each confessed and forsaken sin; and for the final atonement when these sins are permanently removed from the Heavenly Sanctuary at the close of the judgment. He only dies once.

NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

KJV Hebrews 10:16-17   16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;  17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Question: Why would God keep a record of sins He said He remembers NO MORE?  Of what use will that record be?  Do you have any verse(s) from Scriptures hinting of record of sins being kept somewhere in heaven?

Can you please directly address the above questions, jackson?

Thanks.

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, jackson said:

It seems to me that not every heavenly intelligence is privy to the deeds and thoughts of fallen men and women. There will unlikely be many surprises as to whose names are in the book of life and whose are not.

Eccl 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil. 

Romans 2:16"The day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

The "books" of heaven notes all our actions and thoughts

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment [was] white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne [was like] the fiery flame, [and] his wheels [as] burning fire. 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. 
 

I think the confusion comes in part because the word translated "judgment" or "judge" can mean EITHER the hearing of the facts to determine reward or punishment, OR the actual execution of the punishment.  The "Day of Judgment" is the day when judgment is executed.  In Rev. 14 - "the hour of His judgment has come" - I agree - seems more like a hearing of the facts, because specific actions are commanded of men, to follow this "hour".  If it were the day of execution, there would be no time for such actions. 

In Rev 14:7, "has come" is in the aorist tense of the Greek, which is not quite the same as present tense.  It's more like a sure process has begun.  It's like beginning to begin, or beginning.  That actually would allow for actions to take place by persons on earth - as it were - just in time.

Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24 NKJ)

Not myself believing in "once saved - always saved" - at least in the Baptist sense, I would say the one who believes and continues in that faith until death - he will "not come into judgment". 

Jesus said, "I know My sheep."   I can't imagine that has changed since He spoke those words.   If Jesus says, "That one is mine.  I claim her for myself."  I believe that's the end of it. 

As a child I used to live in FEAR, thinking that my name could come up for judgment at any moment.  In Sabbath School the teacher would talk about being "weighed in the balances".   I do not believe that Jesus wanted me to have nightmares thinking I might be lost, and be thrown into fire.  That's not TRUST relationship. 

[LifeHiscost]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

As a child I used to live in FEAR, thinking that my name could come up for judgment at any moment.  In Sabbath School the teacher would talk about being "weighed in the balances".   I do not believe that Jesus wanted me to have nightmares thinking I might be lost, and be thrown into fire.  That's not TRUST relationship. 

What can sometimes be neglected by very knowledgeable theologians is that in the court of justice, earthly or heavenly, judgement is more often than not pronounced "Not guilty".

I think the confusion comes in part because the word translated "judgment" or "judge" can mean EITHER the hearing of the facts to determine reward or punishment, OR the actual execution of the punishment.  The "Day of Judgment" is the day when judgment is executed.  In Rev. 14 - "the hour of His judgment has come" - I agree - seems more like a hearing of the facts, because specific actions are commanded of men, to follow this "hour".  If it were the day of execution, there would be no time for such actions. 

In Rev 14:7, "has come" is in the aorist tense of the Greek, which is not quite the same as present tense.  It's more like a sure process has begun.  It's like beginning to begin, or beginning.  That actually would allow for actions to take place by persons on earth - as it were - just in time.

Jesus said, "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (John 5:24 NKJ)

Not myself believing in "once saved - always saved" - at least in the Baptist sense, I would say the one who believes and continues in that faith until death - he will "not come into judgment". 

Jesus said, "I know My sheep."   I can't imagine that has changed since He spoke those words.   If Jesus says, "That one is mine.  I claim her for myself."  I believe that's the end of it. 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

[Samie]

Hi jackson,

Thanks for your reply to the questions I asked:

On 24/03/2017 at 4:54 AM, Samie said:

NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions

KJV Hebrews 10:16-17   16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;  17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Question: Why would God keep a record of sins He said He remembers NO MORE?  Of what use will that record be?  Do you have any verse(s) from Scriptures hinting of record of sins being kept somewhere in heaven?

Can you please directly address the above questions, jackson?

You replied:

On 24/03/2017 at 10:02 AM, jackson said:

The following parable of Jesus shows that God may forgive but it is only after the judgment that He  remembers  your sins no more.

(To save space I clipped Matt 18:27-35 you quoted. - Samie)

I can't explain how your reply directly addressed any of my questions. 

Can you please explain how your reply directly addressed any of them, if you think it really did?

Thanks.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, jackson said:

Compare Matt 18:27 with 18:34-35

I think I understand why you are not able to explain.

You may get back to me when you're ready.

[Samie]

It appears that jackson used verses that do not support what he says, as shown in this post and my posts after this one.

The parable in Matt 18:27-35 does not say what he wants it to say.  The forgiven servant was given to the tormentors.  Why? Because he did not overcome the evil of not forgiving his fellow servant.  Same thing with us descendants of Adam & Eve.  We were all forgiven from all sins:

NAS Colossians 2:13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

But if we don't overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21), then God through Christ will blot us out from the book of life (Exo 32:33; Rev 3:5).  Only overcomers will Christ not blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He Himself also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). When He comes again to reward every man according to his works (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), all NOT blotted out will be rewarded with life eternal and allowed entry into the heavenly portals (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will be rewarded with the wrath of God and will finally have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).  Also see Rom 2:5-11.

You may question me and post your objections against my position, jackson.  I will try my best to directly address each of your objections and explain with biblical basis.