Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Samie]

49 minutes ago, Samie said:

And in fairness to Sis White, I understand that she reversed her endorsement of O.R.L. Crozier's view on atonement (Please see my next post relative to why I said this.), published in The Day-Star Extra on Feb 7, 1846.

In a letter written in Topsham, Maine on April 21, 1847, to Bro. Eli Curtis of New York City, Sister White said:

Quote

I believe the Sanctuary, to be cleansed at the end of the 2300 days, is the New Jerusalem Temple, of which Christ is a minister. The Lord shew me in vision, more than one year ago, that Brother Crosier [O.R.L. Crosier]10 had the true light, on the cleansing of the Sanctuary, &c; and that it was his will, that Brother C. should write out the view which he gave us in the Day-Star, Extra, February 7, 1846. I feel fully authorized by the Lord, to recommend that Extra, to every saint. {1EGWLM 121.4}

Let's take a glance at Bro. Crozier's stand that there was NO ATONEMENT done by Christ on Calvary.  Here's page 25 of the Feb 7, 1846 issue of The Day-Star Extra:

Quote

1. If the atonement was made on Calvary, by whom was it made? The making of the atonement is the work of a Priest? but who officiated on Calvary? - Roman soldiers and wicked Jews.

2. The slaying of the victim was not making the atonement: the sinner slew the victim, Leviticus 4:1-4, 13-15. etc., after that the Priest took the blood and made the atonement. Leviticus 4:5-12, 16-21.

3. Christ was the appointed High priest to make the atonement, and he certainly could not have acted in that capacity till after his resurrection, and we have no record of his doing any thing on earth after his resurrection, which could be called the atonement.

4. The atonement was made in the Sanctuary, but Calvary was not such a place.

5. He could not, according to Hebrews 8:4, make the atonement while on earth. "If he were on earth, he should not be a Priest." The Levitical was the earthly priesthood, the Divine, the heavenly.

6. Therefore, he did not begin the work of making the atonement, whatever the nature of that work may be, till after his ascension, when by his own blood he entered his heavenly Sanctuary for us.

My next post will address the issue of why I said Sister White reversed her endorsement of the above quoted stand of Bro. Crozier.

[Samie]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

. . . why I said Sister White reversed her endorsement of the above quoted stand of Bro. Crozier

On April 21, 1847, Sister White recommended what Crozier wrote in the Feb 7, 1846 issue of The Day-Star Extra.  In that issue, Crozier said that there was NO ATONEMENT that was made when Christ died on Calvary.

HOWEVER,  it appears to me that 46 years thereafter, Sister White seemed to have reversed her recommendation when she wrote:

Quote

"Under the mighty impulse of his love, he took our place in the universe, and invited the ruler of all things to treat him as representative of the human family. He identified himself with our interests, bared his breast for the stroke of death, took man’s guilt and its penalty, and offered in man’s behalf a complete sacrifice to God. By virtue of this atonement, he has power to offer to man perfect righteousness and full salvation. Whosoever shall believe on him as a personal Saviour shall not perish, but have everlasting life." {RH April 18, 1893, par. 7}

"Type met antitype in the death of Christ, the Lamb slain for the sins of the world. Our great High Priest has made the only sacrifice that is of any value in our salvation. When He offered Himself on the cross, a perfect atonement was made for the sins of the people. We are now standing in the outer court, waiting and looking for that blessed hope, the glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ".—The Signs of the Times, June 28, 1899. {7ABC 459.7}

"He [Christ] planted the cross between heaven and earth, and when the Father beheld the sacrifice of His Son, He bowed before it in recognition of its perfection. “It is enough,” He said. “The Atonement is complete.”—The Review and Herald, September 24, 1901. {7ABC 459.6}

"Jesus gave himself for us, making an offering so complete, an atonement so perfect, that every one may be accepted in Him." {Ms11-1902.4} Feb 4, 1902

I am not aware whether Sister White in the succeeding years just before her demise wrote anything against what were quoted above.

[JoeMo]

IMHO, the prophecy embedded in the spring feast days were fulfilled in Christ's first coming; and Christ's death fulfilled the actual Pesach.  the fall feasts (including Yom Kippur) will be fulfilled at the second coming.  To me the scapegoat is satan as the sins of unconverted and unrepentant humanity are heaped on him and he is sent into the wilderness (the realm of demons) - probably for 1,000 years.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/4/2017 at 9:28 AM, JoeMo said:

IMHO, the prophecy embedded in the spring feast days were fulfilled in Christ's first coming; and Christ's death fulfilled the actual Pesach.  the fall feasts (including Yom Kippur) will be fulfilled at the second coming.  To me the scapegoat is satan as the sins of unconverted and unrepentant humanity are heaped on him and he is sent into the wilderness (the realm of demons) - probably for 1,000 years.

The sins of the congregation of Israel AND all "sins committed in ignorance" were confessed over the head of the scapegoat, before it was led/dragged on a leash into the "uninhabited place".  That says to me that the sins of those who refused to confess and receive atonement before "the day" were NOT carried by the scapegoat.  Those who had failed to confess their sins before "the day" were left to bear their OWN rebellious sins.

I believe the prophecy TYPES of Yom Kippur - the high priest entering the Most Holy Place for judgment - and the "fit man" (Christ) dragging the scapegoat to the uninhabited place carrying the confessed sins of Israel - will be fulfilled on "the day" that Christ returns in glory to execute judgment. 

The Feast of Tabernacles will be celebrated in the New Jerusalem by redeemed Israel, when we tabernacle with our Messiah for 7 days + an 8th day homecoming celebration.    The Feast of Tabernacles began 5 days AFTER Yom Kippur. 

 

[JoeMo]

21 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The sins of the congregation of Israel AND all "sins committed in ignorance" were confessed over the head of the scapegoat, before it was led/dragged on a leash into the "uninhabited place".  That says to me that the sins of those who refused to confess and receive atonement before "the day" were NOT carried by the scapegoat.  Those who had failed to confess their sins before "the day" were left to bear their OWN rebellious sins.

Good point.

[Samie]

There is NOT any single sin that was NOT carried on the cross by our Savior - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world that took away the SIN OF THE WORLD.  As to why those who will not make it to heaven will not be there is due to ONE single reason: God judged them as non-overcomers.  All sins committed had been forgiven by God through Christ.  It is one thing to be forgiven; another thing to overcome evil with good.

[Samie]

On 12/04/2017 at 10:50 AM, jackson said:

Samie , the Bible says there is no forgiveness without repentance

I don't think so.

Did Paul not say the truth when he said:

NASB Colossians 2:13-14   13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[Samie]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Samie, it is never good practice to make scripture contradict scripture.

When you see Jesus, John and Peter, Ezekiel, Isaiah and Solomon noting that repentance is necessary for forgiveness, then it should be  clear that Paul is obviously talking to Christians- those who have repented of their sins and chosen Jesus as their Lord.

Sorry, jackson.  NOTHING in Scriptures say repentance is NECESSARY for forgiveness because FORGIVENESS comes first BEFORE repentance.  One cannot repent UNLESS forgiven first.  Repentance is the Greek metanoia - a change of mind for that which is good.  Instead of doing evil, one changes his mind and does good. IOW, repentance is overcoming evil with good. 

Can the unforgiven do good, jackson? No. Or else the Ethiopian can change its skin and the leopard its spots.

[Samie]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Samie,

Please read carefully the following:

2 Chron 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land

Prvb 28:13    He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy.  

1John "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness

jackson,

Please don't weave your doctrine around 1 or 2 verses.  Consider the harmony of Scriptures.

Forgiveness in the Old Covenant occured AFTER atonement was made.  see Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35; 5:10, 13, 16, 18; 6:7; 16:30; 19:22; Num 15:25, 28

Under the New Covenant, atonement was made when Christ died on the cross (Rom 5:10, 11), hence FORGIVENESS had occurred (Eph 1:7; Col 1:14; 2:13).

The unforgiven is yet separate from Christ because sin separates man from God (Isa 59:2).  Hence, the unforgiven is yet APART from Christ and can do NOTHING like repenting (John 15:4, 5).  Your doctrine teaches AGAINST the pronouncement of Christ.  You are saying unless man does SOMETHING - repent - he cannot be in Christ Who said apart from Him man can do NOTHING.

[Gregory Matthews]

This topic is more extensive than I have either the time or the energy to get into.  I must say that  I do not always agree with Samie.  I am not saying that I agree with everything that he has posted in this thread.  But, I will say, without getting more deeply involved, that overall, I have more agreement with what Samie has posted than I have with what Jackson has posted.  Samie is on the right  track on this subject.

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/10/2017 at 11:50 AM, jackson said:

The execution of the judgment upon the wicked does not occur until 1000 years after Christ's Second Coming.  

There are two resurrections- John 5:28-29, Acts 24:15

1.The resurrection of the just at Christ’s Second Coming- Luke14:14 and 1 Thess 4:16-17

2. Resurrection of the wicked for the execution of the judgment,1000 years after the Second Coming.  Rev 20:5 and 21:8

 At His Second Coming, there will be a special resurrection for those who sentenced, reviled and pierced Jesus so that they may see just whom they crucified. Matt 26:63 and Rev 1:7

Yes - those justified through Christ will be resurrected at His return.  But multitudes of those confirmed in rebellion will ALSO be resurrected. 

NIV  Daniel 12:1-2  "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The wicked have always outnumbered the righteous. 

The wicked are raised to "shame and everlasting contempt".  This is a forever judgment.  They will hear judgment pronounced against them on this day.  What would be the point of raising them AGAIN, to judge them AGAIN, to execute them AGAIN - after 1000 years have past??? 

There is no evidence that ALL of those raised at the end of the millennium are wicked. 

I believe the "rest of the dead" will be those who did not have the information or the mental maturity to respond to the Gospel during their lives before the second coming. 

They will be raised at the 8th millennium, to continue their lives in the kingdom of Messiah on earth.  They will HEAR the truths of God.  They will be governed by the "priests of God and of Christ" (the redeemed from the "first resurrection").  And then they will have to choose whom they will serve.  Those who refuse Christ will join the army of Gog.  They will be destroyed when they attack Jerusalem, in an attempt to overthrow the rule of Christ. 

Clearly - the redeemed will become "priests of God and of Christ" (Revelation 20:6).  What would be the point of the redeemed becoming priests, if there are no other human beings to teach, or to govern?

//www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/20-Kingdom of Priests.pdf

[LifeHiscost]

   The wicked have always outnumbered the righteous.     

 

¹⁶ So he answered, “Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them.” ¹⁷ And Elisha prayed, and said, “Lord, I pray, open his eyes that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw. And behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha....2 Kings 6

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/4/2017 at 2:14 AM, Samie said:

  Quote

"Under the mighty impulse of his love, he took our place in the universe, and invited the ruler of all things to treat him as representative of the human family. He identified himself with our interests, bared his breast for the stroke of death, took man’s guilt and its penalty, and offered in man’s behalf a complete sacrifice to God. By virtue of this atonement, he has power to offer to man perfect righteousness and full salvation. Whosoever shall believe on him as a personal Saviour shall not perish, but have everlasting life." {RH April 18, 1893, par. 7}

I am posting again your quote from EGW.  I think it does explain her position, and I agree with it. 

Christ won "power to OFFER" salvation.  Which does NOT mean that every man would accept it.  We accept it WHEN we believe, and thereby open our heart's door to Christ, who enters to transform us. 

Every human being feels the drawing of the spirit.  To every man is "given a measure" of faith - just enough to open the door.  Christ WON the right to give this measure to every man. 

Yes - He died for ALL.  Yes - His desire is to redeem ALL.  But He will NOT override our free will. 

I would agree that we are not "lost" because we have committed sins (done evil) against God.  We are "lost" IF we refuse the indwelling of Christ.  And we are NOT - all of us - born with the indwelling.  We receive the indwelling WHEN we open our heart's door - by believing.  And we can also LOOSE the indwelling, if we turn away from Him and resist His spirit. 

I feel we are arguing semantics.  Samie keeps saying we must "overcome evil with good".  There is no neutral place where we neither do evil, nor do good.  A person does one or the other.  A person is either indwelt by Christ or he is not. 

Refusing to believe IS evil.  Believing IS "good". 

Refusing to help the poor IS evil.  Helping the poor IS good. 

Selfishness IS evil.  Unselfishness IS good. 

I could substitute the word "sin" for the word "evil" in each statement. 

I believe we are all born with the opportunity to be saved.  Jesus won the right to OFFER salvation - to ALL.  But each person must individually accept THE OFFER.   I do NOT believe that ignorant pagans and children will be given eternal life at the glorious return of Christ.  They have NOT believed or overcome.  This would be a FREE PASS.  It would be unjust to require belief and overcoming of all mankind, yet to exempt children and the ignorant.  It would also be unjust to leave such people dead - without giving them the opportunity to believe and to overcome.  This is WHY I believe such persons will be resurrected as part of "the rest of the dead".  During the 8th millennium, these people will grow to maturity, will be healed of any mental defects, will be taught the ways of the Lord (by His priests), and will have the opportunity to believe and to overcome.  Some will accept the OFFER.  Others will refuse - and will join the army of Gog. 

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/8thdaybook.shtml

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/11/2017 at 2:07 AM, Samie said:

There is NOT any single sin that was NOT carried on the cross by our Savior - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world that took away the SIN OF THE WORLD.  As to why those who will not make it to heaven will not be there is due to ONE single reason: God judged them as non-overcomers.  All sins committed had been forgiven by God through Christ.  It is one thing to be forgiven; another thing to overcome evil with good.

I can agree with the words I highlighted.

I agree that we are not "lost" because we have sinned.  We are also NOT "saved" because our sins were forgiven. 

We are "lost" IF we will not open our heart's door to the indwelling of Christ.  [THIS is the "sin against the holy spirit.]  And we are "saved" IF we open our heart's door to Christ, and remain in this "relationship".

It is only as we open our heart's door, and allow Christ to "overcome" in us and through us - that we CAN "overcome evil with good" - BECAUSE "it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God" (Gal 2:20 NKJ).  We cannot claim any credit for the overcoming.  The overcoming is done by Christ. 

Which is the contest - the contest between the indwelling Christ and the self (still selfish and still left with free will).   It is the contest between striving to do it by one's own strength (which always fails), and trusting Christ to overcome in us. 

We have one thing to DO.  BELIEVE in Him.  [The "belief" I speak of includes surrender with trust.  Devils also believe, but they do not surrender or trust.]

He will not believe for us.  To do so would violate our FREE WILL. 

So - "what is Christ DOING in Heaven now"  ?? 

ANSWER:  He is overcoming - through us - day by day by day.  He is pleading with us to trust Him, so that He can do the overcoming - for us. 

Someday the surrender to the indwelling Christ will be complete for every redeemed person.  When that day comes - there will BE no more striving. 

And with the final destruction of Satan, EVIL will be no more. 

 

[JoeMo]

On 3/31/2017 at 8:54 AM, Samie said:

We need to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21)

I agree; but "overcoming" requires effort (in some cases a lot of effort) to achieve.  Doesn't that make it a "work"?

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, jackson said:

hi Rachel,

Your comments in red, mine in black

Yes - those justified through Christ will be resurrected at His return.  But multitudes of those confirmed in rebellion will ALSO be resurrected.

NIV  Daniel 12:1-2  "At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people-- everyone whose name is found written in the book-- will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.

The wicked have always outnumbered the righteous.

"Few there be that find it." 

The proper translation is “some” to everlasting shame and contempt.. That is not a large multitude and refers to the special resurrection of those who sentenced, reviled and pierced Jesus so that they may see just whom they crucified.  Matt 26:63 and Rev 1:7

I do not believe in the "special resurrection" just for those who were physically present to condemn and torture Christ.  Paul said those who left Christ after believing in Him, "crucify the LORD again".  And what about those who have tortured Christian believers - by the millions.  Does not Christ feel the pain of these martyrs?  Of course He does!  "In all their affliction, He was afflicted." 

John said those raised at the first resurrection are blessed .  Yes. 

That eliminates the wicked, except those who conspired or were directly responsible for putting Jesus to death 

No.  You are defining the "first resurrection" to include all of those raised at Jesus return. 

I believe the righteous will be resurrected BEFORE the wicked are resurrected to face judgment.  That means the redeemed are resurrected "first".  This sequence does not preclude a resurrection of the wicked, to follow a resurrection of the redeemed - at the return of Christ. 

"But the REST" are NOT resurrected - at this time. 

So the texts describe THREE types of people.  1.  Redeemed  2.  Condemned  3.  The REST

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.   20:6            Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 

Obviously there are two resurrections. The first being of the blessed, and the 2^nd 1000 years later for those receiving the second death.

The wicked are raised to "shame and everlasting contempt".  This is a forever judgment.  They will hear judgment pronounced against them on this day.  What would be the point of raising them AGAIN, to judge them AGAIN, to execute them AGAIN - after 1000 years have past??? 

As Revelation plainly states , the first resurrection is for the blessed .  Yes - this part I agree with.

The rest  of the dead are not blessed and face the resurrection  for the execution of the Second Death 1000 years later. The wicked are not resurrected at Christ’s Second Coming.

I disagree.  Daniel 12:2-3 

ASV  Daniel 12:2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt." 

How do you get from this, the resurrection of a large group of redeemed and only a very small number of "special" wicked?

Acts 24:15  “I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection (singular) of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.”

    NOTE: “a resurrection” - singular - involving BOTH the just and the unjust.

Matthew 13:47-50  “So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

The separation of the righteous from the wicked TAKES PLACE at the second coming. 

IF - as you say - every wicked person has been judged and deemed worthy of execution, then WHY release Satan from the pit, to deceive the "nations in the four corners of the earth"?  These people have already been judged.  Why turn Satan loose on them AGAIN, to deceive them AGAIN? 

It makes more sense to me, that Satan is released BECAUSE the contest for these souls is not finished.  Satan demands access to them [the rest] BECAUSE they have NOT YET decided for or against Christ. 

Also, see that Paul   mentions only the resurrection of the righteous at the Second Coming

…..and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: 1 Thess 4:16-17

There is no evidence that ALL of those raised at the end of the millennium are wicked. 

Revelation says they are not the  blessed and they have part in the second death.

No.  It actually says the second death "has no power" over "he has part in the first resurrection".  It does not mention - in this verse - "the rest of the dead".  They will be resurrected with mortal bodies.  They have not made their CHOICE yet, and until they do, they cannot either receive "spiritual" bodies, or be consumed as enemies of God.    

Rev. 20:6  "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection.  Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years." 

I believe the "rest of the dead" will be those who did not have the information or the mental maturity to respond to the Gospel during their lives before the second coming. They will be raised at the 8th millennium, to continue their lives in the kingdom of Messiah on earth.  They will HEAR the truths of God.  They will be governed by the "priests of God and of Christ" (the redeemed from the "first resurrection").  And then they will have to choose whom they will serve.  Those who refuse Christ will join the army of Gog.  They will be destroyed when they attack Jerusalem, in an attempt to overthrow the rule of Christ. 

Rev 22:11        He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

The final atonement is just that, final, and it becomes final just before Christ’s return. The Bible gives no mention of a second chance, and it is without Biblical foundation to make such a claim.

Rachel:  The resurrection of "the rest" is NOT a "second chance".  It is a first opportunity for those who died in ignorance, and those who died as children. 

Revelation 22:11 is speaking of adults who have HEARD the truths concerning God and His Law.   It is NOT speaking of the immature and those who died in ignorance.

BESIDES:  All sins of ignorance were covered by the blood of the Lord's goat on Yom Kippur.  Jesus cannot give eternal life to ignorant people who have never CHOSEN to serve Him.  These people must be given the opportunity to choose.  Which means they must be informed.  Which means they must be resurrected to continue their lives.  They only time frame for that, is the 8th millennium. 

Clearly - the redeemed will become "priests of God and of Christ" (Revelation 20:6).  What would be the point of the redeemed becoming priests, if there are no other human beings to teach, or to govern?

Revelation says those of the First Resurrection will reign  with Christ for 1000 years. What will they be doing? They will be judging to determine the degree of punishment to be meted out to both the wicked dead and the wicked angels.

The "degree of punishment".  You mean torture/vengeance.  Sorry Jackson, I don't believe our God is like that.  And I believe every redeemed person would simply want them DEAD, as quickly as divinely possible.  The LORD said, "vengeance is MINE".  Now you're saying the redeemed will get to meet out the degree of vengeance/ payback.  No way!!

Rachel:  Who will we "reign" over Jackson - during the 7th millennium, if earth is uninhabited?  The 24 elders say they will "reign on the earth".  And Rev. 2:26-27 says those who overcome will "rule the nations" with Christ.  There are no "nations" to rule over, during the 7th millennium.  I believe its' more logical to look to the 8th millennium for our "reign" - over "the nations".

Says Paul, “Know ye not that we shall judge angels?” 1 Cor 6:, 3. And ”Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?  Cor 6:2.

And Jude declares that “the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains-under darkness unto the Judgment of the great day.” [Jude 6.]  

Isaiah says  of the wicked during the 1000 years, "They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22

John  says of the saints, “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them:” Rev  20:4

The punishment due each of the wicked depends upon the multitude and type of their various sins. This judging of their punishment is during the 1000 years of the saints’ reign with Christ.

Luke 12:47      And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].   12:48     But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more

John  19:11     Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power [at all] against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin

Matt 20:47       Which devour widows' houses, and for a show make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

I will insert my comments in BLUE. 

Rachel

[Samie]

On 14/04/2017 at 1:30 PM, jackson said:

Samie, you said there were no scriptures requiring repentance before forgiveness. I gave you three out of a dozen or more  found in both the Old and New Testaments.

Are you now changing the discussion and claiming these three verses were requiring the impossible  ?

Was John the Baptist asking the impossible when he preached "   And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;"? Luke3:3

Was Peter in error well when he preached " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,"? Acts 2:38

As I have previously posted, doctrines should take into consideration the harmony of Scriptures on the subject.  In OT types, forgiveness was granted AFTER atonement was made.  In the NT antitype, atonement was made when Christ died, hence forgiveness became a reality, and that includes the forgiveness done in the old covenant.  Had Christ NOT died,  forgiveness under the old covenant would have been worthless. 

Forgiveness - past, present, future - derive their salvific significance from what Christ did FOR all as manifested and revealed on the cross of Calvary.

Both John and Peter from the verses you quoted, based their understanding of forgiveness from the old covenant types.  Those shadow of things had been overruled by reality: Christ - the ANTITYPE.

On 14/04/2017 at 1:30 PM, jackson said:

Was even Jesus mistaken when He told Paul that the Gentiles had not yet received forgiveness of sins, even though His atoning  sacrifice was already accomplished?

Acts 26:15    And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.  
 26:16    But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;  
 26:17    Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,  
 26:18    To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

To RECEIVE something simply signifies the thing being received is already EXISTENT otherwise there is none to receive.  Forgiveness became EXISTENT because Christ has died.  His death is payment for all sins because the wages of sin is death.  Forgiveness is God's act, not man's. And whatever God does FOR man is all grace NOT work.  To preach that unless man repents he cannot be forgiven is preaching a works-based salvation.  

Again, REPENTANCE is the Greek metanoia - a change of mind for that which is good.  Instead of doing evil, man changes his mind and does good.  IOW, it is overcoming evil with good.  Repentance comes AFTER forgiveness.  Only the forgiven CAN repent because they are already in Christ and therefore are ABLE to do SOMETHING - they can repent, for APART from Him man can do NOTHING.  To preach that unless man repents he cannot be forgiven and hence cannot be in Christ, is preaching AGAINST what Christ said - Apart from Me man can do NOTHING.

On 14/04/2017 at 1:30 PM, jackson said:

Samie, the truth is that Jesus made provision for all sins to be forgiven if the sinner would only confess and forsake his sins,i;e;, sincerely repent.

Under the old covenant type, it was the high priest that confessed all sins of the people upon the head of the sin bearer - the scapegoat.  In the new covenant antitype, Christ  our High Priest confessed all sins of humanity upon Himself - our sin bearer, and carried them to a land NOT inhabited - death.

 

[Samie]

On 16/04/2017 at 7:15 AM, JoeMo said:

I agree; but "overcoming" requires effort (in some cases a lot of effort) to achieve.  Doesn't that make it a "work"?

Yes, it is.  But that work is done because people are ALREADY in Christ, NOT to be in Christ. 

If one teaches that overcoming is done so people can be In Christ, then that's teaching a works-based salvation. 

But if overcoming is done because people are already in Christ and hence already saved, then that is simply living life in accordance with what the Head wants its body parts to do.  Overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne even as He Himself also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21).

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, jackson said:

The proper translation is “some” to everlasting shame and contempt.. That is not a large multitude and refers to the special resurrection of those who sentenced, reviled and pierced Jesus so that they may see just whom they crucified.

Just wanted to point out that Strong's #07227 is translated as "multitude" 7 times in the KJV. 

EXAMPLE:  Exodus 12:38 "And a mixed multitude went up also with them; and flocks, and herds, even very much cattle." (KJV)

I guess we should call them the "mixed many". 

[8thdaypriest]

THE QUESTION OF THIS THREAD CONCERNED CHRIST'S WORK IN THE HEAVENLY-TRUE TABERNACLE

Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (NKJ)

Jesus lives to "make intercession" FOR those who "come to God through Him" (in His name). 

1.  We would therefore understand that His work is to "make intercession".   1793 evntugca,nw entugchano {en-toong-khan'-o}
Meaning:  1) to light upon a person or a thing, fall in with, hit upon, a person or a thing 2) to go to or meet a person, esp. for the purpose of conversation, consultation, or supplication 3) to pray, entreat 4) make intercession for any one

Christ is NOT pleading with God the Father to change His mind towards sinners.  He is pleading with US, trying to change our minds towards God the Father. 

Colossians 1:19-20  "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross." (NRS)

The word translated "atonement" IS the same word translated "reconciliation".  So God the Father is ATONING to himself all things.  And He is doing that THROUGH Christ.  Christ was/is the agent of His Father in this "reconciliation".  And He has made us "ministers of reconciliation" to work with Christ to bring others to this reconciliation/atonement.  

2.  Christ makes intercession FOR "those who come to God - through Him".   How do we understand these words?  To our Western minds, it sounds as if Jesus does not intercede for those who do not "come to God". 

My understanding, is that Jesus is interceding for the whole human world - trying to win them- but His work of intercession/reconciliation is more likely to be successful - when folks "come to God through Him".  Why?  Because those who come through Jesus, are more likely to get the message - that God loves us and wants us and will heal our hearts.  They are more likely to be "reconciled", to trust, and therefore they can be "healed" of their selfish thinking.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/14/2017 at 0:30 AM, jackson said:

Samie, you said there were no scriptures requiring repentance before forgiveness. I gave you three out of a dozen or more  found in both the Old and New Testaments.

Are you now changing the discussion and claiming these three verses were requiring the impossible  ?

Was John the Baptist asking the impossible when he preached "   And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;"? Luke3:3

Was Peter in error well when he preached " Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,"? Acts 2:38

Was even Jesus mistaken when He told Paul that the Gentiles had not yet received forgiveness of sins, even though His atoning  sacrifice was already accomplished?

Acts 26:15    And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.  
 26:16    But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;  
 26:17    Delivering thee from the people, and [from] the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,  
 26:18    To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Samie, the truth is that Jesus made provision for all sins to be forgiven if the sinner would only confess and forsake his sins,i;e;, sincerely repent.

 

In Romans 7, Paul is speaking of this conundrum.  He WANTS to change His ways [repent] - but finds it impossible.  Why would this be true, IF (as Samie contends) Paul was already "in Christ" and "saved" the moment he was born?

CJB  Romans 7:15 "I don't understand my own behavior - I don't do what I want to do; instead, I do the very thing I hate! 16 Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good. 17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me. 18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. I can want what is good, but I can't do it! 19 For I don't do the good I want; instead, the evil that I don't want is what I do! 20 But if I am doing what "the real me" doesn't want, it is no longer "the real me" doing it but the sin housed inside me. 21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me! 22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah; 23 but in my various parts, I see a different "torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "torah," which is operating in my various parts."

Do we repent [change our ways] FIRST?  Or do we believe in Christ FIRST, and THEN - Christ changes us?    I believe the latter.

Those who logically come to see that evil is NOT good, also come to a place of great frustration BECAUSE they cannot BE GOOD.  They may try many different "remedies" - which then fail them.  IF they come to know Christ, ONLY THEN do they find the transformation and "goodness" that they seek for themselves. 

IMO - Those who believe we must "be good" (repent) in order to be "forgiven" are looking at this from a legal perspective.  Jesus paid a price (presumably to God, or to "the Law") so that humans could "be forgiven" by God.   

Those who believe we cannot "be good" until we ARE "forgiven", are ALSO looking at things from a legal perspective.  Jesus paid a price, therefore God has "forgiven" all sins.

Samie says men CANNOT BELIEVE until they are FIRST "forgiven", therefore God must have forgiven, because men can believe.

IMO:  God has not treated mankind as He could justly and legally have done.  He could have left us to stew in our own hatreds until we slowly died and passed out of existence.  Rather He has treated us as a loving father who just wants to win us back to a trusting, respectful relationship.  He did this because He loves us - yes.  But He did this BECAUSE we were deceived - by the Evil One.  It was NOT OUR FAULT that we were born into a war zone, between super spirit powers.   Does this mean that God the Father HAS FORGIVEN us? 

What does it MEAN - to "forgive" ?   Oxford University says it means "to excuse" and "to stop feeling angry towards someone who has wronged you".  Strong's equates the word "forgive" with the word "pardon".  No "punishment" or "revenge" will be exacted upon the one who wronged another, or broke the law BY the one wronged.  First:  God never "felt" angry towards us - just hurt.  Second:  We all experience the "punishment" demanded by God's Law - death.  God WANTS to give us "life", but only His indwelling spirit can do THAT, and we must open the door to THAT. 

IMO:  Believing is OUR PART.  Believing is our RESPONSE to God's pleading spirit.  Christ's suffering death is the EVIDENCE God uses to convince us that He loves us, and we can "return home". God will NOT do the believing FOR US.  This is the crunch point - the linchpin - in the whole process.  This is the opening of the heart to the spirit of Christ.  Christ will NOT pry open the door!!!   He just knocks. 

I am looking at things from a trust perspective. Jesus paid a price (did what it took) so that men (hearing about the price He paid) could believe in God, and trust Him.  THEN they will open their hearts.  And THEN they can be healed.  This still leaves men the FREE-WILL option NOT to believe, NOT to open their hearts, and NOT to be healed/empowered.  

So I do NOT believe the forgiveness comes BEFORE the believing.  Forgiveness IS healing, and we cannot be healed UNTIL we open our heart to the Spirit of Life.

  Matthew 9:2 Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, "Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you." (Mat 9:2 NKJ)

  Matthew 9:5 "For which is easier, to say,`Your sins are forgiven you,' or to say,`Arise and walk '? 6 "But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins"-- then He said to the paralytic, "Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house."

 

 

[JoeMo]

36 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

IMO - Those who believe we must "be good" (repent) in order to be "forgiven" are looking at this from a legal perspective.  Jesus paid a price (presumably to God, or to "the Law") so that humans could "be forgiven" by God.   

Those who believe we cannot "be good" until we ARE "forgiven", are ALSO looking at things from a legal perspective.  Jesus paid a price, therefore God has "forgiven" all sins.

Samie says men CANNOT BELIEVE until they are FIRST "forgiven", therefore God must have forgiven, because men can believe.

IMO:  God has not treated mankind as He could justly and legally have done.  He could have left us to stew in our own hatreds until we slowly died and passed out of existence.  Rather He has treated us as a loving father who just wants to win us back to a trusting, respectful relationship.  He did this because He loves us - yes.  But He did this BECAUSE we were deceived - by the Evil One.  It was NOT OUR FAULT that we were born into a war zone, between super spirit powers.

Excellent points, Rachel; and eloquently spoken!  My view of what happened to Adam and Eve is the equivalent of giving the car keys to a baby and telling him/her to "drive".  Adam and Eve were likely babies when the serpent approached them; and had no clue what their consequences would be, any more than a baby would know the complexities of driving a car.  You're correct God could have legally and justly abandoned humanity to satan at the fall.  BUT - being the loving Father that He is, He has (and continues to) discipline and disciple us. He who began a good work in us will be faithful to complete it.

[Samie]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

i put a "like" next to your post, but i pushed the wrong button, as i do not like it.

Your comments in red, mine in black 

Both John and Peter from the verses you quoted, based their understanding of forgiveness from the old covenant types.  Those shadow of things had been overruled by reality: Christ - the ANTITYPE.

So , to defend your gospel you have to conclude that John and Peter were uniformed and their statements were  in error?

Scriptures record how God Himself taught Peter (see Acts 10).  BEFORE that vision, Peter taught that prior to repentance and baptism people were unclean, just as you teach.  But AFTER that vision, Peter learned his lesson:

Acts 10:28  . . . but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

Sadly, you seem to refuse to learn yours.

3 hours ago, jackson said:

You also must conclude that only in the OT did forgiveness require repentance, for inspiration also says:

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh [them] shall have mercy Prvb 28:13

Forgiveness - both in the Old and New Testaments - is God's work FOR man, all grace, NOT an iota of human participation, solely accomplished through Christ Whose death cleansed us from all sins.

 

3 hours ago, jackson said:

According to your doctrine, only the forgiven could repent and man wasn’t forgiven until the cross. So, were these following inspired writings preaching works, too?

Jesus, before His crucifixion, said ,”  Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. “(Matt 4:17),  Was He not asking His hearers to repent before they were forgiven? 

Sorry, jackson.  You seemed to have totally misunderstood me.

When Adam fell into sin, God saved him through Christ that same day, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8),  just as any good earthly father would do.  Do you think our heavenly Father just folded His hands upon seeing his child fall into sin and did nothing to save him from drowning in it?  Is that how you describe our God of agape love, that He only sent down the Lifesaver of heaven FOUR (4) millennia after the emergency occurred? No, brother. God implemented the plan of salvation right on that same day the emergency occurred, sent down heaven's Lifesaver and saved Adam in Christ.

With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are all born in Christ.  The slaying of the Lamb of God from the foundation of the world PRECEDED all commands for repentance both in the old and new testaments!  The cross is simply the manifestation of the plan of redemption devised before the world began (see 2 Tim 1:8-10).

[Samie]

7 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie says men CANNOT BELIEVE until they are FIRST "forgiven", therefore God must have forgiven, because men can believe.

And I think that sits pretty well with Jesus' own pronouncement that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:4, 5), like believing and repenting.  Because if they could do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING while apart from Him, then Christ must haven't told the truth.  But I honestly believe He did tell us the truth.

AND: Unless forgiven, man is NOT in Christ, because sin separates man from God (Isa 59:2).