Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Samie]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I agree with you, Samie.  I would also submit that through Christ everything is possible.  But even with Christ, though you CAN do anything, it doesn't mean you are COMPELLED to do so.  With Christ, indeed you CAN (i.e., you have the ability to) believe; but one is not FORCED to believe - we have a free will to either accept or reject what Christ offers.  If we don't CHOOSE to accept salvation by grace through faith, Christ isn't going to shove it down our throat.  If I freely offer you $1 billion, I'm not forcing you to accept it.  It's your choice.

The past and present tenses of salvation are all God's work FOR man. Just like God sending the rain or making the sun shine upon us whether we like it or not.  But NOT in the future tense of salvation. Only those whom God judges as overcomers will inherit life eternal.  Your post above applies to the future tense of salvation.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

C'mon Samie,

Just because Peter used the same 2 words ("born again") as Jesus used in John, doesnt mean they are referring to the same subject.  Peter talks about being born to a living hope; while Jesus speaks of being born to eternal life.  Living hope is NOT the same thing as "eternal life.  You're really stretching the scripture here, brother.

If allowing scripture explain scripture is stretching the scripture, then so be it.  The living hope is the hope of eternal life as scripture says:

Titus 1:1-2  KJV Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;  2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/23/2017 at 4:12 PM, Samie said:

The action words I bolded in red in your post I quoted above prove that prior to your acting out those action words, you are ALREADY "in Him" Who said: "APART from Me you can do NOTHING."  

"opening the heart's door", "allowing Him entrance", "submitting to Him" are SPIRITUAL acts doable only by those who are already SPIRITUALLY alive.  And to be spiritually alive is to be In Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4).

Samie,

You interpret  "without me" to MEAN  "without Me IN YOU".  

I don't think Jesus was saying "without Me" in you.  He was just saying, "without Me" - period - meaning without His help (of whatever sort) - from without [pleading/knocking] OR from within empowering.  

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/24/2017 at 3:07 PM, Samie said:

But they were born again when Jesus resurrected.  And Jesus HAD BEEN resurrected, so all had been born again.

"Born again" means something OTHER than being physically born.  Check.

In order to "see the Kingdom of God" a person "must be born again".  Check.

For 4000 years, human beings were physically born - NOT in a "born again" condition.  Because that could not happen UNTIL Jesus was resurrected from the dead.  (According to Samie). 

Now - for almost 2000 years, all human beings physically "born" into the world, have ALSO (at the time of their physical birth) been "born again".  (According to Samie.)

That would mean the people "born" AFTER Jesus resurrection, have had a whopping advantage. 

OR - it sounds like Samie believes the "birth" was retroactive, back to the gates of Eden.  But what good would that "birth" do people who were already DEAD by the time Christ was raised. 

This is getting really confusing!!

 

On 4/25/2017 at 1:09 PM, JoeMo said:

NAS 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead

 

[8thdaypriest]

This whole discussion has brought up a good question. 

What is the difference between Christ's work ON the heart (from the outside) and Christ's work IN the heart (from inside) ??

So long as Christ is on the OUTSIDE, there is no change in the character of the person.  Right?  In fact, the harder a person resists - fighting against the influence of the spirit of Christ - the harder their "heart" becomes, and the person changes for the worse, not for the better.  Remember Pharaoh?  It's hard to believe that he was "born in Christ". 

Paul wrote:  "Christ IN me, the hope of glory". 

I believe a person must CONSENT to Christ making changes in his heart/mind.  The person says in effect, "I give you permission to change me."  For God to change a person, WITHOUT the individual's consent, seems like manipulation - to me. 

I believe a person must apply for citizenship in the Eternal Kingdom of Messiah.  We apply by asking.  Even the thief on the cross prayed, "Remember me when you come into your Kingdom".  

Without that requirement of asking and submission and consent, every ignorant pagan who ever lived, would receive eternal life at the resurrection.  It's my understanding that this is what Samie believes.  All sins were forgiven, therefore all are in the Book of Life, therefore ALL are/will be saved (except those who failed to overcome evil, after being informed concerning their evil).

At least I believe those who lived and died in ignorance or immaturity will be resurrected - NOT to eternal life - but to continued physical life, so they can be informed and then make their choice - to choose Christ OR not.  Only THEN will those who choose Christ as Lord, be given eternal life.  

 

[JoeMo]

13 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Without that requirement of asking and submission and consent, every ignorant pagan who ever lived, would receive eternal life at the resurrection. 

I don't think that is what Samie says.  IMHO, he is saying that only those who overcome evil with good are saved; and that decision is totally up to God (at least that's what I infer) - kinda like predestination - if God predetermines that you are an overcomer, you're saved; and if He determines you are not an overcomer, you are lost; and, there's nothing you can do about it.  So if a pagan with no clue; or an athiest who totally rejects the supernatural overcomes evil with good, they are saved.

My question still remains - what does "overcoming evil with good" even mean?  Is it a scale with good on one side and evil on the other; and whichever one is heavier determines your eternal destiny?  Or is it an absolute - like you have to overcome EVERY evil in your life to be saved - believer or not?  If being an "overcomer" is solely God's decision, how can one ever be confident of his/her salvation?  It doesn't matter if we are saved in the past and present tenses; but are not saved in the future tense, we're not saved; so where does salvation in the past and present tense even enter into the equation?  How can we ever approach the throne of mercy in confidence if we never know whether or not we are sufficient "overcomers" to warrant God's attention?  Where does free will enter into the equation?  If we are experts at behavior management and good deed doing; yet we willfully reject the Jesus and his grace, is Jesus going to drag us kicking and screaming into the Kingdom?  Is the act of faith in Christ a sufficient "work" be cut off from the grace we believe in?  Or is the act of faith the only way to open the door to saving grace?  I will always believe it is the latter.

[8thdaypriest]

 Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (NKJ)

There is a LOT of information packed in this one verse. 

"save to the uttermost" NKJ, KJV, ASV - "to save forever" NAU - "to save completely" NIV - "for all time to save" NRS

This seems to be the "future tense of save" that Samie talks about. 

The ones who are saved "completely", "forever", "to the uttermost" - are "those who come to God through" Jesus.   That would include those in the OT who sacrificed a lamb to Yahweh, asking for forgiveness, and those in the NT who ask forgiveness in the name of Jesus. 

For WHOM does Jesus "make intercession"??  In this verse - it is FOR "those who come to God through Him". 

I don't believe one can "come to God" without any awareness that one IS coming to God.  How can one be humble towards God, without knowing who God is?  And how can one be sorry for sins, without knowing what sins are?

And isn't that what repentance IS - coming to God, (as opposed to resisting God, or avoiding God) asking for forgiveness, with a humble heart, and with the intention to act righteously going forward??

Luke 18:13 "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,`God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." (NKJ)

The Tax Collector ASKED for mercy, and acknowledged himself a sinner. 

 

[Samie]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,

You interpret  "without me" to MEAN  "without Me IN YOU".  

I don't think Jesus was saying "without Me" in you.  He was just saying, "without Me" - period - meaning without His help (of whatever sort) - from without [pleading/knocking] OR from within empowering.  

I simply mean what I think the verse says, that APART from Christ, that is, not PART of His Body, man is POWERLESS to do any spiritual act like "opening the heart's door", "allowing Him entrance", "submitting to Him".

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

[Samie]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

"Born again" means something OTHER than being physically born.  Check.

In order to "see the Kingdom of God" a person "must be born again".  Check.

For 4000 years, human beings were physically born - NOT in a "born again" condition.  Because that could not happen UNTIL Jesus was resurrected from the dead.  (According to Samie). 

Now - for almost 2000 years, all human beings physically "born" into the world, have ALSO (at the time of their physical birth) been "born again".  (According to Samie.)

That would mean the people "born" AFTER Jesus resurrection, have had a whopping advantage. 

OR - it sounds like Samie believes the "birth" was retroactive, back to the gates of Eden.  But what good would that "birth" do people who were already DEAD by the time Christ was raised. 

This is getting really confusing!!

NKJ Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

NKJ Romans 4:17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations") in the presence of Him whom he believed -- God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

 

[Samie]

19 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This whole discussion has brought up a good question. 

What is the difference between Christ's work ON the heart (from the outside) and Christ's work IN the heart (from inside) ??

So long as Christ is on the OUTSIDE, there is no change in the character of the person.  Right?  In fact, the harder a person resists - fighting against the influence of the spirit of Christ - the harder their "heart" becomes, and the person changes for the worse, not for the better.  Remember Pharaoh?  It's hard to believe that he was "born in Christ". 

I believe, he was.  He just REFUSED to overcome evil with good.

[Samie]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I don't think that is what Samie says.  IMHO, he is saying that only those who overcome evil with good are saved; and that decision is totally up to God (at least that's what I infer)

Yes, that's what I mean.

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I don't think that is what Samie says.  IMHO, he is saying that only those who overcome evil with good are saved; and that decision is totally up to God (at least that's what I infer) - kinda like predestination -

No, that's not what I mean.  Scripture says that judgment comes when a person dies (Heb 9:27). That, to me, says it is only AFTER a person dies that God determines whether the person is an overcomer or not.  Hence, there's no predestination involved in being judged an overcomer or otherwise.   There's hope while alive. 

Predestination was involved in our being adopted children in Christ, that is, our being born "in Christ".

KJV Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

[Samie]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

My question still remains - what does "overcoming evil with good" even mean?

To me, "overcoming evil with good" = REPENTANCE.

Repentance is the Greek metanoia, change of mind for that which is good.  When the opportunity to do evil comes, the person changes his mind and do good instead.

 

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Is it a scale with good on one side and evil on the other; and whichever one is heavier determines your eternal destiny?

No, that's not how I understand it.

 

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

 Or is it an absolute - like you have to overcome EVERY evil in your life to be saved - believer or not?

Nope. Or else no one makes it to heaven for all have sinned one way or the other.

 

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

 If being an "overcomer" is solely God's decision, how can one ever be confident of his/her salvation?

Just overcome evil with good and leave everything to the RIGHTEOUS Judge, the God of agape love Who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think (NKJ Eph 3:20).

 

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

It doesn't matter if we are saved in the past and present tenses; but are not saved in the future tense, we're not saved; so where does salvation in the past and present tense even enter into the equation?

It enters the equation in that we have been (past tense - born ALREADY in Christ hence born ALREADY part of His Body) and are being (present tense - NOT removed from being part of the body of Christ while alive, hence we continually have His Power to do good) empowered to overcome evil with good.

 

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

How can we ever approach the throne of mercy in confidence if we never know whether or not we are sufficient "overcomers" to warrant God's attention?

We ALWAYS are in God's attention - We are the Body of His only begotten Son.  As long as we are physically alive, no one is severed from the Body of Christ. There's hope while alive.

 

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Where does free will enter into the equation?

It enters into the equation when we, faced with the opportunity to do evil, exercise our free will to either do the evil or overcome it by doing good instead.

 

6 hours ago, JoeMo said:

If we are experts at behavior management and good deed doing; yet we willfully reject the Jesus and his grace, is Jesus going to drag us kicking and screaming into the Kingdom?

NO, He will not. We did not overcome the evil of REJECTING Him by willfully rejecting Him instead.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 Hebrews 7:25 "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them." (NKJ)

There is a LOT of information packed in this one verse. 

"save to the uttermost" NKJ, KJV, ASV - "to save forever" NAU - "to save completely" NIV - "for all time to save" NRS

This seems to be the "future tense of save" that Samie talks about. 

The ones who are saved "completely", "forever", "to the uttermost" - are "those who come to God through" Jesus.   That would include those in the OT who sacrificed a lamb to Yahweh, asking for forgiveness, and those in the NT who ask forgiveness in the name of Jesus. 

For WHOM does Jesus "make intercession"??  In this verse - it is FOR "those who come to God through Him".

All are born In Him, part of His Body.  No one can come to God BUT through Him and Him alone.

 

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I don't believe one can "come to God" without any awareness that one IS coming to God.  How can one be humble towards God, without knowing who God is?  And how can one be sorry for sins, without knowing what sins are?

For me, I better leave that portion to God Who knows the intents of one's heart.

 

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

And isn't that what repentance IS - coming to God, (as opposed to resisting God, or avoiding God) asking for forgiveness, with a humble heart, and with the intention to act righteously going forward??

Repentance, to me, is overcoming evil with good.  Not just intending to do good but actually doing good instead of evil.

 

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Luke 18:13 "And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,`God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 "I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted." (NKJ)

The Tax Collector ASKED for mercy, and acknowledged himself a sinner.

He overcame the evil of self-righteousness by being humble.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

I simply mean what I think the verse says, that APART from Christ, that is, not PART of His Body, man is POWERLESS to do any spiritual act like "opening the heart's door", "allowing Him entrance", "submitting to Him".

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

Samie,

You quote the NAS because it says "apart from Me", rather than "without Me" as other versions translate this passage.  

The word translated as "apart" is translated as "without" 35 times, "beside" 3 times, and "by itself" 1 time - in the KJV, according to Strong's.

But the word can simply MEAN lacking - as in this case, to lack divine help/power.  

The verse does NOT SAY "apart (from My body)".  It just SAYS "without Me". 

I take the words to MEAN "without My help" - without supernatural help.

You interpret "apart from Christ" to MEAN "not part of His body".   I think that's a stretch.  

Christ said, "he who abides IN ME, and I in him, bears much fruit."   

Here is where I EQUATE "in Christ" with "Christ in".  It is one state of being.  There is no "in Christ" without "Christ in".  

IF this person CHOOSES to remain in this state - with Christ indwelling, then he will "bear much fruit". 

If this persons CHOOSES to forsake this relationship, he will become a fruitless branch which is "broken off". 

My belief is that each person must enter this relationship knowingly, by believing and welcoming the indwelling of Christ.  

I agree that there were rare exceptions, when persons especially chosen of God (other than Jesus) were "filled with the Holy Spirit" from birth.  John the Baptist was such a person.  The angel who spoke to Zacharias made a point of telling the soon to be father, about this wonderful gift.  Why make special mention of this gift, if it is something that every person is born with? 

King Saul was "filled with the Spirit" after his anointing, but later the "spirit of the LORD" left him, and then a demon troubled him. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/25/2017 at 4:43 PM, Samie said:

The past and present tenses of salvation are all God's work FOR man. Just like God sending the rain or making the sun shine upon us whether we like it or not.  But NOT in the future tense of salvation. Only those whom God judges as overcomers will inherit life eternal.  Your post above applies to the future tense of salvation.

What - in your opinion Samie - must we "overcome" before we can "inherit life eternal" ??

[Samie]

45 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,

You quote the NAS because it says "apart from Me", rather than "without Me" as other versions translate this passage.  

The word translated as "apart" is translated as "without" 35 times, "beside" 3 times, and "by itself" 1 time - in the KJV, according to Strong's.

But the word can simply MEAN lacking - as in this case, to lack divine help/power.  

The verse does NOT SAY "apart (from My body)".  It just SAYS "without Me". 

I take the words to MEAN "without My help" - without supernatural help.

You interpret "apart from Christ" to MEAN "not part of His body".   I think that's a stretch.  

Rachel,

I respect your take on how I understand scripture.

It’s not because I simply wanted to use NAS, I’m just after the real meaning of the phrase “APART” from Me” which you prefer in KJV “without Me”.

 

The Greek word is cwri.j

cwri.j adverb from cwri,j

 

1. From the United Bible Societies Dictionary:

Quote

[UBS] cwri,j (1) prep. with gen. without, apart from, without relation to (occurs postpositive in He 12.14 ou- cÅ without which); besides, in addition to; (2) adv. separately, by itself (Jn 20.7) 

2. From Timothy and Barbara Friberg Lexicon:

Quote

[Fri] cwri,j adverb; (1) used as an adverb separately, apart, by itself (JN 20.7); (2) in the NT predominately as an improper preposition with the genitive apart from, without; (a) with the genitive of person without, with no relationship to, separated from (JN 15.5); apart from (someone's help), independent of (JN 1.3); without counting someone in besides, except, in addition to (MT 14.21); (b) with the genitive of the thing outside of, apart from (2C 12.3); without making use of (MT 13.34); without any relation to (HE 9.28<

 

3. From Louw-Nida Lexicon:

Quote

[LN] cwri,j   (a) without 89.120  (b) separately 63.31 

 

4. From Lidell-Scott Lexicon:

 

Quote

 

[LS] cwri,j, Adv., separately, asunder, apart, by oneself or by themselves, Hom.; kei/tai cÅ o` nekro,j Hdt.; cÅ qe,sqai to set apart, keep in reserve, Thuc.; cÅ oivkei/n to live apart, Dem.; mh, me cÅ aivtiw/ accuse me not without evidence, Soph.; cÅ poiei/n to distinguish, Isocr.; cwri.j de,. . , and separately, besides, Thuc.:-separately, one by one, Lys.; cwri.j h; except, cÅ h' o[ti except that, Hdt.; cÅ h' o[kosoi except so many as, Id. 2. metaph. of different nature, kind, or quality, Soph., Eur. II. as Prep. c. gen. without, Aesch., Soph., etc.; cÅ Zhno,j without his help or will, Lat. sine Diis, Soph. 2. separate from, apart or aloof from, far from, cÅ avnqrw,pwn sti,bou Id.; h` yuch. cÅ tou/ sw,matoj Plat. 3. independent of, without reckoning, not to mention, besides, Hdt., Aesch. 4. differently from, otherwise than, Plat., Dem.

 

5. From Joseph Henry Thayer Lexicon:

Quote

[Thayer] cwri,j (CAW, see cw,ra (cf. Curtius, sec. 192)), adverb, from Homer down;  1. separately, apart: John 20:7.  2. as a preposition with the genitive (Winer's Grammar, sec. 54, 6); a. wilhout any person or thing (making no use of, having no association with, apart from, aloof from, etc.): 1 Cor. (iv. 8); 11:11; Phil. 2:14; 1 Tim. 2:8; 5:21; Heb. (2:9 Treg. marginal reading); 11:40; parabolh/j, without making use of a parable, Matt. 13:34; Mark 4:34; o`rkwmosi,aj, Heb. 7:20 (21),21; cwri,j ai[matoj, Heb. 9:7,18; BwRef('BGT_Heb 9:0')a`imatecusiaj, Heb. 9:22; without i. e. being absent or lacking: Rom. 7:8f. (R. V. apart from); Heb. 11:6; 12:8,14; James 2:18 (Rec. evk),20,26 (in these three examples R. V. apart from); without connection and fellowship with one, John 15:5 (R. V. apart from); destitute of the fellowship and blessings of one: cwri,j Cristou/ (cf. Winer's Grammar, sec. 54, 2 a.;. R. V. separate from Christ), Eph. 2:12; without the intervention (participation or cooperation) of one, John 1:3; Rom. 3:21 (28; 4:6; 10:14)

 

6. From Felix Wilbur Gingrich Lexicon:

Quote

[GING] cwri,j adv.—1. used as an adv. separately, apart, by itself J 20:7.—2. functions as prep. w. gen. without, apart from—a. w. gen. of the person apart from someone, far from someone, without someone J 1:3; 15:5; Ro 10:14; 1 Cor 4:8; 11:11; Eph 2:12.—Besides, in addition to Mt 14:21; 15:38.—b. w. gen. of the thing outside (of) something 2 Cor 12:3.—Without, apart from Mt 13:34; Lk 6:49; Ro 3:28; 7:8; Phil 2:14; Phlm 14; Hb 4:15; 9:28; 10:28; Js 2:20.—Besides, in addition to 2 Cor 11:28. [pg 218]

I couldn't see how your preferred translation "Without Me" is NOT similar to "APART from Me" as the above scholarly works seem to show.

[Samie]

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

What - in your opinion Samie - must we "overcome" before we can "inherit life eternal" ??

As I have REPEATEDLY mentioned to the annoyance, perhaps, of some in this forum, we MUST overcome evil with good. 

Overcoming evil with good, is, to me, the essence of REPENTANCE - from the Greek metanoia: change of mind for that which is good.  Confronted with the opportunity and was about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead. In the words of Christ: Repent or perish. see Luke 13:3, 5.

The command to repent is the same command God made in the Old Testament (Ezek 18:30).  The same command God NOW wants every man every where to do (Acts 17:30).  The same command Jesus made when He first preached the gospel of the kingdom (Mar 1:14, 15); the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14).

[JoeMo]

18 hours ago, Samie said:

On 4/27/2017 at 9:12 AM, JoeMo said:

 If being an "overcomer" is solely God's decision, how can one ever be confident of his/her salvation?

Just overcome evil with good and leave everything to the RIGHTEOUS Judge,

Sounds like "work" to me - much harder work than choosing to let Jesus guide my life.

 

18 hours ago, Samie said:

On 4/27/2017 at 9:12 AM, JoeMo said:

we are experts at behavior management and good deed doing; yet we willfully reject the Jesus and his grace, is Jesus going to drag us kicking and screaming into the Kingdom?

NO, He will not. We did not overcome the evil of REJECTING Him by willfully rejecting Him instead.

So you DO agree with me - we must choose to let Christ into our hearts to be saved (good) rather than reject Him (evil).  So you agree that the only way we can be saved is to CHOOSE Christ rather than reject Him.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Sounds like "work" to me - much harder work than choosing to let Jesus guide my life.

That, to me, is simply semantics, brother, semantics. To do evil or to do good is a daily occurrence in one's life, whether one acknowledges it or not. 

Being part of His Body, we cannot ESCAPE the fact that Jesus - the Head - is ALWAYS the person's Guide.  Question is, will the person succumb to His leading by overcoming evil, or NOT?

 

3 hours ago, JoeMo said:

So you DO agree with me - we must choose to let Christ into our hearts to be saved (good) rather than reject Him (evil).  So you agree that the only way we can be saved is to CHOOSE Christ rather than reject Him.

The ONLY way to life eternal is Jesus, as I have time and again said.  Being born ALREADY part of His Body, we are on our way to life eternal UNLESS Jesus Himself removes us from being part of His Body by blotting our names from the book of life.  The opportunity to "consciously" choose Jesus is an entirely different part of the salvation story.  Take the case of the Ethiopian eunuch.

He was born in Christ, born ALREADY part of His Body, yet he did not know about that fact.  Being God's child, he chose to succumb to God's leading to travel more than 5000 miles from Ethiopia just to worship God in Jerusalem.  God Who knows us better than we know ourselves, knew that the eunuch has grown up into such a level of spiritual maturity that it would be best for him to personally know about Jesus.  Se He sent Philip to meet with him. And the rest is history.

Had the eunuch REJECTED Him, then Jesus will NOT drag him kicking and screaming into His kingdom.

BUT, hypothetically, had the eunuch died PRIOR to meeting with Philip, will Jesus blot his name from the book of life simply because he did not yet consciously choose Him to be his Guide?  I don't think so.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/27/2017 at 3:20 PM, Samie said:

I simply mean what I think the verse says, that APART from Christ, that is, not PART of His Body, man is POWERLESS to do any spiritual act like "opening the heart's door", "allowing Him entrance", "submitting to Him".

NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.

When Jesus said, "I am the vine", He was saying "I am THE SOURCE of the divine power you will receive, which empowers you to overcome selfishness, to spread the Gospel with courage, etc. etc. 

We must stay connected to Him - the source.  Today we would probably say that we must stay "plugged in" to Christ who is the source of the divine "current".

 

Christ was made to be "head of the church, His body".  The husband is HEAD of his wife AS Christ is head of the church.  As a good husband gives his life for his wife, so Christ gave his life for His beloved. 

Husband and wife become "one flesh".  That means the wife and husband SHARE one "body".  Right?   Only Christ's WIFE shares "one flesh" with Him. 

And the "bride" - "the Lamb's wife" IS "the New Jerusalem".  The New Jerusalem IS NOT - all of mankind. 

The original covenant with Israel WAS a marriage covenant!!  That means ISRAEL became the "bride" - "the Lamb's wife". 

Only by becoming citizens of Israel (and the New Jerusalem) - are we betrothed (married) to the Lamb.  THIS is when we become "one flesh" with Christ - part of "His body". 

Paul says, "I have betrothed you to one husband".   The marriage theme runs all through the writings of Paul. 

I contend that ALL OF HUMANITY did NOT become "one flesh" with Christ on the cross.  Only those who accept His marriage proposal.  It's called "The New Covenant". 

Now - even those who ARE part of Israel, can be "cut off" - "divorced" as it were - if they are unfaithful to the covenant they have entered. 

This is why I believe names are ENTERED into The Book of Life, WHEN individuals enter into the covenant of marriage to the Lamb.  And they are "blotted out" when/if individuals are judged to have remained stubbornly unfaithful to that covenant - without repentance.   

 

 

 

[Samie]

10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

When Jesus said, "I am the vine", He was saying "I am THE SOURCE of the divine power you will receive, which empowers you to overcome selfishness, to spread the Gospel with courage, etc. etc. 

We must stay connected to Him - the source.  Today we would probably say that we must stay "plugged in" to Christ who is the source of the divine "current".

That's precisely what I had been saying. "Plugged in" to Christ first, BEFORE one can do anything.  And to be plugged in to Christ is  to be NOT APART from Him, that is, to be part of His Body, written in the book of life. Hence, the following is in the reverse order:

11 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This is why I believe names are ENTERED into The Book of Life, WHEN individuals enter into the covenant of marriage to the Lamb. 

You have no power to ENTER unless you are plugged in first.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

That's precisely what I had been saying. "Plugged in" to Christ first, BEFORE one can do anything.  And to be plugged in to Christ is  to be NOT APART from Him, that is, to be part of His Body, written in the book of life. Hence, the following is in the reverse order:

You have no power to ENTER unless you are plugged in first.

Jesus' last pray to His Father, gives us insight into Jesus intercession in the "true Tabernacle" of "Heaven itself". 

FOR WHOM is Jesus interceding???

In Jesus' last prayer to His Father, He said, "I DO NOT PRAY for the world, but for those You have given me."  (John 17:9)

Obviously - "those You have given me" is a different group from "the world".  Jesus prays FOR one - but NOT the other.   Jesus even says, "They are NOT of the world, just as I am not of the world." 

Just as Abraham found a bride for Isaac and brought her to Isaac, God the Father draws human beings out from "the world", and He brings them TO His Son - to be His son's "bride".

So - there's your HELP Samie.  The help comes from God the Father.   

BEFORE a person has consented to be part of Jesus' "bride" - that person is just part of "the world".  He/she will stay that way IF they do not consent.  

A woman MUST CONSENT to become a "bride".    

BEFORE they "come to" Christ,   Christ is NOT "in" them, and they are NOT "in Christ".   Christ is NOT their "husband".

BEFORE they "come to" Christ, they are NOT betrothed/married to Him. 

[In ancient times, the betrothal WAS the marriage covenant.  This covenant was made many months - sometimes more than a year - BEFORE the wedding feast took place, and the marriage was consummated.]  

ALSO

John 17:20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; (NKJ)

So - Jesus is praying for [interceding for] those who already believed in Him, and those who would [future tense] believe in Him. 

He is NOT praying for the whole world!!  He is NOT interceding for the whole world.   He is praying for His bride. 

Only the bride's name is recorded in the family book! 

Romans 8:34 "Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us." (NKJ)

The "us" in this verse - refers only to "the bride", and those who will become part of "the bride" through the testimony of the faithful witnesses.  "Us" does NOT refer to the "whole world". 

Jesus said, "I do NOT pray for the world" !

[Samie]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

So - there's your HELP Samie.  The help comes from God the Father.   

BEFORE a person has consented to be part of Jesus' "bride" - that person is just part of "the world".  He/she will stay that way IF they do not consent.  

A woman MUST CONSENT to become a "bride".    

BEFORE they "come to" Christ,   Christ is NOT "in" them, and they are NOT "in Christ".   Christ is NOT their "husband".

BEFORE they "come to" Christ, they are NOT betrothed/married to Him. 

You said in your previous post that unless PLUGGED IN to Christ, people have no power. But here you are telling me people have power to consent and to come PRIOR to being PLUGGED IN to Christ.

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

 

Samie,

You just keep repeating and repeating and repeating ONE VERSE. 

"Without Me you can do nothing."  

I believe it MEANS  "You can BEAR no righteous FRUIT".    How does a woman/wife "bear fruit" ?  She must be "known" by her "husband" first.  Right?  They must become "one flesh".  

Philippians 1:11 "being filled with the fruits of righteousness which are by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God." (NKJ)

1 John 2:4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (NKJ)  Jesus is "the truth", therefore Jesus is not "in" the one who rebelliously despises God's commandments. 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

SAVIOR OF THE WORLD?

1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.”  (NKJ)

God the Father sent His Son to be "Savior of the world" - the WHOLE WORLD.  Check.

Does that MEAN the WHOLE WORLD - including every human being who has ever/will ever live - will inherit the gift of eternal life??  Answer:  NO!!  "Few there be that find it."

God's desire was that the WHOLE WORLD would believe in Christ and serve Him.  But God allows us to accept or to refuse. 

 

1 John 2:2 “And He Himself is the propitiation [atoning sacrifice] for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.” (NKJ)

Jesus Christ offered His own blood and body "once FOR ALL"  (Hebrews 10:10).  - For all time, and for all people. 

Does that mean every human being who has ever/will ever live - will inherit the gift of eternal life??  Answer:  NO!  Each one has the right of rejection. 

 

2 Corinthians 5:19 “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.” (NKJ)

Romans 5:10 “For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.” ( NKJ)

Remember: The word translated as "reconciliation" means "atonement". 

Question:  Does this mean that every human being will inherit eternal life?  Answer:  No! 

God did not "impute" the trespasses (sins) of any one.  He treated them all as "sins of ignorance".  Romans 3:25 says, "in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed".  Acts 17:30 says, "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked" (Acts 17:30).

THEN:  God sent His own Son, to show the truth, the way to life - to show Himself in the world.  Those who refuse to "see" when God has sent the fullest revelation possible, can NOT claim ignorance.  This is why God "now commands all men to repent".  We teach the Gospel to INFORM, so that men may repent.  Without the Gospel, they wouldn't know what they are repenting of, or repenting for. 

My point here, is that most will be lost BECAUSE they will exercise the right of rejection.  God has given them that right.  This despite Christ's death as "the Savior of the WORLD".