Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

We're all saying the same thing, I guess.

The only difference between me and other discussants in this issue is this: while I believe we all were born in Christ because God saved Adam through Christ the same day he sinned, many others believe we all are born in sin which to me would be depicting our God of agape love just like a father who just folded his hands when he saw his child who does not know how to swim JUMP into the water and instead of saving him, he left him to drown because saving him would be interfering with his FREEWILL

With my view, we begin life ALREADY enabled to do SOMETHING, being in Christ.  With the view of others, we begin life NOT in Christ yet able to do SOMETHING to be in Him.

Samie,

Your description of those who believe that we are "born in sin" (with carnal nature, and within Satan's dominion) is beyond unreasonable.  NO ONE here believes that God our Father has done nothing to rescue human kind.  Of course He has!!!

We just don't believe that God erased all sin even before it was committed.   

Adam and Eve were adults with intelligence far beyond our present brain power.  God warned them about the Evil One.  But God was not going to tie them to a tree, to prevent their disobedience of His expressed command. 

[Samie]

I posted:

14 hours ago, Samie said:

As I understand it, Rachel is basically saying the Father simply folded His hands as He watched His children - Adam & Eve - fall into and drown in sin.  Even an earthly father when he sees his child fall into the water, will do everything even at the peril of his own life to save his child from drowning. 

Quite difficult for me to imagine our God of agape love is how Rachel tries to depict Him.  Sorry but, for me, her way of depicting our heavenly Father falls short of why Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rachel replied:

9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

It's called FREE WILL Samie.  God does not control minds. 

And then I posted, in relation to Rachel's FREE WILL defense:

5 hours ago, Samie said:

The only difference between me and other discussants in this issue is this: while I believe we all were born in Christ because God saved Adam through Christ the same day he sinned, many others believe we all are born in sin which to me would be depicting our God of agape love just like a father who just folded his hands when he saw his child who does not know how to swim JUMP into the water and instead of saving him, he left him to drown because saving him would be interfering with his FREEWILL

With my view, we begin life ALREADY enabled to do SOMETHING, being in Christ.  With the vew of others, we begin life NOT in Christ yet able to do SOMETHING to be in Him.

To which she replied:

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,

Your description of those who believe that we are "born in sin" (with carnal nature, and within Satan's dominion) is beyond unreasonable.  NO ONE here believes that God our Father has done nothing to rescue human kind.  Of course He has!!!

The issue is saving Adam, NOT humanity, the day he sinned.

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

Define "save" - as in "saved Adam, the day he sinned".

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, Samie said:

The issue is saving Adam, NOT humanity, the day he sinned.

 

18 hours ago, Samie said:

I believe we all were born in Christ because God saved Adam through Christ the same day he sinned,

Samie, you said that every human being is "born in Christ" and therefore in a "saved"/forgiven of all sins condition, BECAUSE God "saved Adam the same day he sinned". 

That sounds an awful lot like "humanity" to me.

[Samie]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,

Define "save" - as in "saved Adam, the day he sinned".

To be saved is to be in Christ.

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie, you said that every human being is "born in Christ" and therefore in a "saved"/forgiven of all sins condition, BECAUSE God "saved Adam the same day he sinned". 

That sounds an awful lot like "humanity" to me.

IF saving Adam is saving humanity, then so be it. 

Sadly, you don't seem to believe God saved humanity because you don't believe God saved Adam the same day he sinned.

God IS the Savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10), it THEREFORE necessarily follows that He has ALREADY saved Adam.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

To be saved is to be in Christ.

IF saving Adam is saving humanity, then so be it. 

Sadly, you don't seem to believe God saved humanity because you don't believe God saved Adam the same day he sinned.

God IS the Savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10), it THEREFORE necessarily follows that He has ALREADY saved Adam.

John 3:16  "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Jesus died FOR the whole world of human beings.  But only those who BELIEVE IN HIM will receive "eternal life". 

The GIFT is eternal life.  We (all human beings) have a certified GIFT CERTIFICATE.  But we must believe it is there, and sign for it (as it were) before the gift of eternal life will be given to us. 

Why is that so complicated?

You quote 1Tim. 4:10 to prove that God has "saved" (past tense) "all men". 

But you must balance this with the fact that most of the human race will NOT accept/receive the GIFT of "eternal life".  

Jesus said, "Straight is the gate and narrow the way that leads to LIFE, and few there be that find it." 

Jesus is the way/ the gate that leads to LIFE.   He called Himself "the life".   ONLY those who "believe in Him" will receive the GIFT of eternal life.

2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

We receive the GIFT when we "come to repentance".

The LORD's desire is to save every human being.  Does that mean every person will receive eternal life.  No.

Those who do not "come to repentance" will "perish" [the opposite of eternal life].  

Repentance would be the opposite of "a stubborn heart of unbelief" - just as "everlasting life" is the opposite of "perish".  

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

[Christ speaking] "Without Me you can do nothing." 

OK.  We all believe this. 

Samie, your emphasis is on the "without Me".  You seem to ignore the "you can do".  

The point is that it takes BOTH Christ and you - to accomplish anything good.  Christ cannot "save" you, without your cooperation (your belief in and trust in HIM).   And you [without HIM] cannot "save" yourself.

You have said that individual salvation is ALL of God, and NONE of the individual human's intention or "doing".  I disagree totally!! 

We humans either RESIST or WELCOME the Spirit of Christ into our hearts.  It's one or the other. 

There is no neutral place where the human being does nothing. 

This is our part.  God has created us with this ability to resist or to believe.  

 

Yes.  HE loved us first.  HE loved us while we were still oblivious of His love.  But His love - without our response to that love, does NOT accomplish anything.   All the power of the divine cannot "save" the individual WITHOUT that individual's consent.  And consent is given, by believing in Him.   [NOTE:  I use the word "believing" in the Hebrew sense, which implies walking in that belief.]  

 

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

To be saved is to be in Christ.

 

What does it mean to be "in Christ" ?

I'm not sure your understanding of the words "in Christ", agrees with my understanding of those words. 

 

[JoeMo]

I still fail to see how simply making a choice to believe that Jesus is what He Says He is and did what He said He would do is considered a "work".  Is anything we do to express our faith a"work"? are we just supposed to sit back and be "saved"?  That sure doesn't seem to be what Paul, Stephen, Peter, and many other disciples and apostles did.  Paul says we should run for the prize (I Cor. 9:24).  I don't know about you, but "running" is "work" for me.  Paul talks like we should want the prize enough to work for it - out of love and passion; not obligation.

[8thdaypriest]

I would like to post a few comments on this passage.  Scripture is in BLUE.  Rachel's comments in black.

NKJ  2 Corinthians 5:14 "For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died; 15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again."

NOTE:  The implication here is that God regards all mankind as having DIED.  But the verse does not say that ALL now LIVE.  In fact only a portion of humanity now LIVE, because they have been "born again". 

16 "Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer."

17 "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new."

NOTE:  The IF does NOT sound like everyone is "in Christ" or that everyone was born already "in Christ".  The person "in Christ" has a completely "new" attitude towards everything.  And how could this person be "a new creation" IF they were "in Christ" from "the foundation of the world". 

18 "Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,"

19 "that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation."

NOTE:  "God was in Christ".  The word translated as "in" can just as correctly be translated "through".  Through Christ, God was reconciling the world to Himself.   Even IF it does mean "in" - the verse say that "God was in Christ".  It does NOT SAY the world was "in Christ".  

20 "Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.

NOTE:  If we were already "reconciled" to God, when Jesus died - OR at the "foundation of the world, when Jesus promised to die" - then why would God need to PLEAD with anyone, that they be reconciled to Him?  This is just another indication that Jesus death made reconciliation possible, but the reconciliation is not accomplished until the individual consents by believing and repenting.

21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

NOTE:  Once again, the words "we might become" tell us that Jesus death made it possible for us to become "the righteousness of God in Him".  But this does NOT become accomplished fact UNTIL we consent by believing in Him, and allowing Him entrance into our heart.  

If it became fact when Jesus died, the text should say something like "when God made Him to be sin for us, we became the righteousness of God in Him".  It doesn't say that.  It says, "that we might become".  

[8thdaypriest]

Let's say a young woman was murdered in a terrible sexual assault. 

The mother of this young woman has "forgiven" the man who murdered her daughter.  

Does that mean she would release the man from prison?  Probably not.  She knows that he would harm other women.  It is better for all that he be kept in prison. 

Samie seems to think that "forgiveness" is a get-out-of-jail-free card.  I don't think so. 

Every parent of a drug addicted son or daughter knows - forgiveness will not cure them - not without their sincere surrender and co-operation, and many miracles.   It takes BOTH Christ and man.

If God IS love, then God IS also forgiveness.  Even if we say that God has "forgiven" every sin, it does NOT follow that God would then give "eternal life" and freedom, to those who would use it to continue their abuse of others. 

The LORD banished Adam and Eve from the Garden and BLOCKED their way to The Tree of Life, to PREVENT them from living immortally.  The sentence (consequence) of slow death had already commenced.  And this happened in spite of God's "forgiveness".   They must learn the DIFFERENCE between "good" and "evil" and then (IF they would) CHOOSE the LORD.  Only then could they access the GIFT of eternal life.

[Samie]

10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

John 3:16  "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Jesus died FOR the whole world of human beings.  But only those who BELIEVE IN HIM will receive "eternal life". 

The GIFT is eternal life.  We (all human beings) have a certified GIFT CERTIFICATE.  But we must believe it is there, and sign for it (as it were) before the gift of eternal life will be given to us. 

Why is that so complicated?

Actually, it's very simple. 

Since APART from Christ you can do NOTHING - you can't even believe, God made you part of His Body. NOW that you are part of His Body,  you can now bear fruit among which is FAITH which you can now EXERCISE by BELIEVING.  And whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

Does that appear so complicated to you?

But when you teach that people can believe while APART from Christ, then that is not only complicated, it is also OPPOSED to what Christ said: "APART from ME you can do NOTHING."

Below is the NATURAL consequence of your belief that people are NOT born in Christ, that is, born APART from Him or born NOT part of His Body.

APART from Christ you cannot bear fruit because only those in Him can bear fruit.  If you cannot bear fruit, you cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  If you cannot have faith, you cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  And if you cannot believe then you cannot be in Christ which is what you teach. 

And that becomes complicated because people born APART from Christ cannot believe and therefore can NEVER be in Christ.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Actually, it's very simple. 

Since APART from Christ you can do NOTHING - you can't even believe, God made you part of His Body. NOW that you are part of His Body,  you can now bear fruit among which is FAITH which you can now EXERCISE by BELIEVING.  And whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

Does that appear so complicated to you?

But when you teach that people can believe while APART from Christ, then that is not only complicated, it is also OPPOSED to what Christ said: "APART from ME you can do NOTHING."

Below is the NATURAL consequence of your belief that people are NOT born in Christ, that is, born APART from Him or born NOT part of His Body.

APART from Christ you cannot bear fruit because only those in Him can bear fruit.  If you cannot bear fruit, you cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  If you cannot have faith, you cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  And if you cannot believe then you cannot be in Christ which is what you teach. 

And that becomes complicated because people born APART from Christ cannot believe and therefore can NEVER be in Christ.

 

Yes Samie.  We all understand YOUR BELIEF that all humanity was metaphysically morphed into the body of Christ on the cross, and thereby died for all their sins, and were thereby forgiven for all their sins.   We just don't agree with it.

If ALL humanity already died for ALL their sins, then ALL should be raised to eternal life.   But that is not/will not be, the case.  Few will find it. 

Samie,

You did not give us your definition of  "in Christ".   What do those words mean - to you. 

How can Jesus be on the OUTSIDE - knocking/requesting entrance to our hearts - if we are ALL already "in" Him??  That doesn't make sense - to me. 

For you Samie - there must be a difference between US "in Christ" and Christ "in" us. 

To me - if a person is described as being "in Christ", then he is a believer, and is a member of the body of believers - the church, which the NT describes AS "the body of Christ".  He has opened his heart to Christ, who now dwells within that person. 

[8thdaypriest]

Let's say that I agree with you - that ALL humanity metaphysically DIED in the body of Christ on the cross.   No verse says that ALL were (or will be) raised to eternal life.  Most remain DEAD. 

In order to "live again" eternally, we must become part of the RISEN CHRIST.  In order to become part of the body of the RISEN LORD (the church) - we must receive Him "in" to our hearts.

How many times do I have to repeat it?  We do NOT believe "without" Him.  His Spirit draws, and pleads, and knocks.  He IS doing something that we feel "in" our hearts/minds. 

But He is NOT "in" us (and we are not regarded as "in Him" - as part of "His body" which is the betrothed church) UNTIL we "open the door" to consciously allow Him entrance into our heart/mind - UNTIL we submit to Him as husband and Lord.  And we can RESIST the drawing/pleading/knocking, until we become numb to it.   It is strange to say that we can be stronger than God.  It is only because God will NOT OVERPOWER the human mind/will.  

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Yes Samie.  We all understand YOUR BELIEF that all humanity was metaphysically morphed into the body of Christ on the cross, and thereby died for all their sins, and were thereby forgiven for all their sins.   We just don't agree with it.

If ALL humanity already died for ALL their sins, then ALL should be raised to eternal life.   But that is not/will not be, the case.  Few will find it. 

You said you understand my belief. Sorry, you don't.  Yes, because Christ died for all, all were forgiven. BUT, and this is the part you don't seem to understand, ONLY those whom God judges as OVERCOMERS will inherit life eternal.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,

You did not give us your definition of  "in Christ".   What do those words mean - to you. 

I already did.  INNUMERABLE times in the past. You could have easily deduced it from the very same post you responded to with your post I quoted above. Here's the definition in that post:

7 hours ago, Samie said:

Actually, it's very simple. 

Since APART from Christ you can do NOTHING - you can't even believe, God made you part of His Body. NOW that you are part of His Body,  you can now bear fruit among which is FAITH which you can now EXERCISE by BELIEVING.  And whoever believes should not perish but have everlasting life.

Does that appear so complicated to you?

But when you teach that people can believe while APART from Christ, then that is not only complicated, it is also OPPOSED to what Christ said: "APART from ME you can do NOTHING."

Below is the NATURAL consequence of your belief that people are NOT born in Christ, that is, born APART from Him or born NOT part of His Body.

APART from Christ you cannot bear fruit because only those in Him can bear fruit.  If you cannot bear fruit, you cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.  If you cannot have faith, you cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.  And if you cannot believe then you cannot be in Christ which is what you teach. 

And that becomes complicated because people born APART from Christ cannot believe and therefore can NEVER be in Christ.

To me, "In Christ" means to be NOT apart from Him or to be part of His Body.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Let's say that I agree with you - that ALL humanity metaphysically DIED in the body of Christ on the cross.   No verse says that ALL were (or will be) raised to eternal life.  Most remain DEAD.

Of course, as I have REPEATEDLY pointed out: ONLY those whom God judges as OVERCOMERS will be raised to life eternal.  All non-overcomers Christ removed from His Body by blotting their names from the book of life.

 

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In order to "live again" eternally, we must become part of the RISEN CHRIST.  In order to become part of the body of the RISEN LORD (the church) - we must receive Him "in" to our hearts.

And that's the problem of what you teach:  that while APART from Christ, people can do SOMETHING - receive Him Who said "APART from ME you can do NOTHING".

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

How many times do I have to repeat it?  We do NOT believe "without" Him.  His Spirit draws, and pleads, and knocks.  He IS doing something that we feel "in" our hearts/minds. 

I know you have repeatedly said you do not believe without Him.  That explains why I also repeatedly told you that only those ALREADY in Him can believe because He Himself said "APART from Me you can do NOTHING."  Your "believing" proves you are ALREADY in Him because you have done SOMETHING: believe.

[Samie]

15 minutes ago, jackson said:

You have misinterpreted Christ’s admonition that “apart from me you can do nothing” to mean Christ does it all.

Which means you misinterpreted what I mean. 

To better understand me, just read my posts to Rachel. They also cater to you because your belief is like Rachel's too.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

But He is NOT "in" us (and we are not regarded as "in Him" - as part of "His body" which is the betrothed church) UNTIL we "open the door" to consciously allow Him entrance into our heart/mind - UNTIL we submit to Him as husband and Lord.

The action words I bolded in red in your post I quoted above prove that prior to your acting out those action words, you are ALREADY "in Him" Who said: "APART from Me you can do NOTHING."  

"opening the heart's door", "allowing Him entrance", "submitting to Him" are SPIRITUAL acts doable only by those who are already SPIRITUALLY alive.  And to be spiritually alive is to be In Christ Who is our Life (Col 3:4).

[Samie]

1 minute ago, jackson said:

When I said you said"Christ does it all" , I was referring to this statement of yours:

Posted by Samie on Monday,4/17  at 07:31 PM Forgiveness - both in the Old and New Testaments - is God's work FOR man, all grace, NOT an iota of human participation, solely accomplished through Christ Whose death cleansed us from all sins.

This, of course, contradicts scripture which I noted in my previous post above which  gives  ample scripture and SOP commentary to the contrary.

That's according to you, brother. 

I have with Scriptures already explained to you how and why, but you seemed to have been busy or simply ran away and just appeared now and jabbed me again with your post with issues I have already responded to.

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, jackson said:

When I said you said"Christ does it all" , I was referring to this statement of yours:

Posted by Samie on Monday,4/17  at 07:31 PM Forgiveness - both in the Old and New Testaments - is God's work FOR man, all grace, NOT an iota of human participation, solely accomplished through Christ Whose death cleansed us from all sins.

Forgiveness is God's act. What verse in the Bible contradicts this, jackson?

[Samie]

22 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

If God IS love, then God IS also forgiveness.  Even if we say that God has "forgiven" every sin, it does NOT follow that God would then give "eternal life" and freedom, to those who would use it to continue their abuse of others. 

The LORD banished Adam and Eve from the Garden and BLOCKED their way to The Tree of Life, to PREVENT them from living immortally.  The sentence (consequence) of slow death had already commenced.  And this happened in spite of God's "forgiveness".   They must learn the DIFFERENCE between "good" and "evil" and then (IF they would) CHOOSE the LORD.  Only then could they access the GIFT of eternal life.

I'm glad your post above, through your statement I highlighted in red, is in total agreement with my position.

As I had REPEATEDLY said before, all were forgiven BUT only OVERCOMERS will inherit life eternal.

[Samie]

8 hours ago, jackson said:

No you haven';t. You just continue to dance around the issue.

Oh, really? You must have played some music I just swayed in rhythm.

 

8 hours ago, jackson said:

The Bible is clear that repentance is a condition of forgiveness. But this is something you have not or will not acknowledge.

Your whole doctrine is based on two suppositions that contradict scripture

1. That we are all born in Christ

2. That we are all born forgiven and saved.

The fact that Jesus , through Isaiah, Solomon, Peter, John and Paul made forgiveness conditional destroys your  second supposition.

The fact that Jesus asks us to come to Him and even  further describes Himself as knocking at our door for entrance destroys your first supposition.

Did you not say repentance is NOT man's work, but God's?  So why would God repent for Samie and NOT for jackson?  Is God, to you, impartial or not?

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, Samie said:

You said you understand my belief. Sorry, you don't.  Yes, because Christ died for all, all were forgiven. BUT, and this is the part you don't seem to understand, ONLY those whom God judges as OVERCOMERS will inherit life eternal.

NOT OVERCOMING evil would be a SIN.  If all sin was forgiven, then why not the sin of failing to overcome evil?  

[Samie]

16 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

NOT OVERCOMING evil would be a SIN.  If all sin was forgiven, then why not the sin of failing to overcome evil?  

He forgave that one, too. 

BUT only overcomers will NOT be blotted out from the book of life.  Forgiving of sins and blotting out of names are two different things.