Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[8thdaypriest]

At the risk of bolstering Samie's argument:

Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (NKJ)

This verse says that Jesus Christ "purged our sins" - and THEN returned to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father.   I did not yet exist when Jesus "purged" my sins, and the sins of all mankind.  So - I think I've got to go with ALL SINS - of mankind - past/present/future. 

I liked your post Jackson, where you said that God issued an amnesty for Japanese soldiers after WWII, but individual soldiers had to come out of hiding and accept it, and surrender their weapons. 

Another example I can think of - one that has been discussed lately concerning illegal immigrants, is the idea of a blanket pardon covering all illegal immigrants up to a certain date - those who have committed no other crimes.  Once pardoned, individuals could become eligible for citizenship.  BUT - to benefit from this "pardon", individuals must come forward, register, pay a fine, and "get in line" for citizenship. 

Jesus obviously DIED FOR all mankind.  Therefore His death must apply - in some way - TO all mankind.

Let's see if I can explain how I am seeing this. . .

I DO NOT BELIEVE that individual human beings will be given the GIFT of eternal life in the Kingdom of God our Father, without conscious desire to be citizens of that kingdom, without informed consent on their part, AND without a demonstration of INTENT to serve and obey God our Father and Jesus His Son.  (Samie would say, "without overcoming evil with good".)  This is why we will be judged by our works - the outward demonstration of understanding and intent. 

In other words - no FREE PASS for young children and ignorant pagans - despite their sins having been "purged".  (Here I still DIFFER with Samie.)  These people must be given the opportunity to HEAR, and to BELIEVE (I'm using the word in the Hebrew sense, which includes walking in the way one believes. In the Hebrew sense, "believe" is an action verb.  It is not something that happens only in the mind, and need effect nothing else.) 

Entrance into the forever kingdom is NOT ABOUT our sins - how many we committed.  It is ABOUT our desire to serve Christ and God our Father. 

I STILL believe that individual names are recorded in The Book of Life WHEN individuals meet the requirement for inclusion within "the bride" - Jerusalem - the Israel of God (which is based upon belief/faith - NOT DNA).  One BELIEVES, and then demonstrates that belief through baptism.  This is WHEN they become part of "the body of Christ".  This is WHEN His death is APPLIED to them - just like the amnesty or pardon, is APPLIED to specific individuals.

Jesus won the right to APPLY His death to any human being.  He won the right to judge. 

Hope I explained that well enough.

Rachel

 

[8thdaypriest]

You see Jackson.  Our behavior must change - we must repent, in order for the universal "pardon" to be APPLIED to us individually. 

[Samie]

22 hours ago, jackson said:

Everyone  is born with a measure of faith); hence one need not be in Christ to be drawn to Him (Rom 12:3 and John 1:9) In fact,no one is born in Christ. We must hear His voice and come to Him by faith

jackson is saying while a person is NOT in Christ, he ALREADY possesses faith he can use  to HEAR and COME to Christ. Sorry, brother. That's not possible according to Christ Himself. Here again:

IF one is NOT in Christ, he cannot bear fruit because Christ said only those in Him can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5).  IF one cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

Hence your statements "Everyone  is born with a measure of faith" and "no one is born in Christ" are paradoxical. 

If you are NOT born in Christ, you CANNOT be born with a measure of faith.

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, jackson said:

Rachel, we have to be careful not to take one verse and run with it if our understanding of it contradicts other verses. There are many verses in both the OT and NT which unequivocally  place repentance as a condition for forgiveness.

i respect your opinion. 

You said before that repentance is God's work and NOT man's. So, why would our IMPARTIAL God repent for you and NOT for me?  If He repented for both you and me, why would He NOT repent for all? If He has repented for all then He must have forgiven all, according to your doctrine that makes repentance a condition for forgiveness.

[8thdaypriest]

14 minutes ago, jackson said:

Rachel, we have to be careful not to take one verse and run with it if our understanding of it contradicts other verses. There are many verses in both the OT and NT which unequivocally  place repentance as a condition for forgiveness.The OT sacrificial system, a pattern of Jesus' heavenly ministry required confession on the head of the sacrifice  Christ's blood is our sacrifice. Would it not be inconsistent that confession was not required with Christ's blood?

To make scripture consistent with itself, we must look at Jesus sacrifice as making provision for the purging of our sins. Paul, in Romans 3:25 said that Christ was only a propitiation for our sins when we had faith in his blood.

Rom 3:25    Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 If we say our sins have been forgiven at the cross we make scripture, and Paul in particular, contradict himself. But  if want all scripture to be in harmony we must conclude that Jesus' sacrifice made more than ample provision for the purging of all sins ever committed, as it too made provision for complete reconciliation with God.

It is righteousness by faith and not by Divine edict, for without faith it is impossible to please Him.

Jackson, 

I don't think my understanding "contradicts other verses". 

As I said earlier, for the forgiveness/pardon/justification to be APPLIED to the individual, that person must CONFESS his sin and ask for forgiveness in the name of Jesus (or over the head of the lamb).  The confession and repentance are ACTIONS which demonstrate the belief of the person in Christ (the lamb) and demonstrate the person's intention to serve God and to obey His law. 

[8thdaypriest]

16 minutes ago, Samie said:

i respect your opinion. 

You said before that repentance is God's work and NOT man's. So, why would our IMPARTIAL God repent for you and NOT for me?  If He repented for both you and me, why would He NOT repent for all? If He has repented for all then He must have forgiven all, according to your doctrine that makes repentance a condition for forgiveness.

The above quote is Samie, responding to Jackson's post.

Now Rachel:

I do NOT believe that "repentance is God's work and NOT man's".   It takes BOTH.

Men cannot repent without God, but neither can God repent FOR men.  Repenting is NOT something God does FOR men.  Repenting is something that men do - with God's help.  Just like they BELIEVE with God's help, and they act righteously with God's help. 

There is a whopping DIFFERENCE between God doing it all - both for us and in us, and God empowering us to do it - with His help.  One presents men as simply robots, or Stepford "wives".  The other presents men as agents with FREE WILL, who respond to God, and receive His help.  We give the credit to God, because we could not do it without Him.  And God gives us crowns of reward, because we did "do it".  It is a symbiotic relationship. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/29/2017 at 9:03 AM, Samie said:

That's precisely what I had been saying. "Plugged in" to Christ first, BEFORE one can do anything.  And to be plugged in to Christ is  to be NOT APART from Him, that is, to be part of His Body, written in the book of life. Hence, the following is in the reverse order:

You have no power to ENTER unless you are plugged in first.

No Samie!  No!  No!  No! 

Becoming "part of His body" only happens WHEN we are betrothed to Him.  And that happens when we believe and enter into covenant. 

Because Jesus "died for all" does NOT MEAN that "all" became "part of His body" hanging on the cross.  No!

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Let's see if I can explain how I am seeing this. . .

I DO NOT BELIEVE that individual human beings will be given the GIFT of eternal life in the Kingdom of God our Father, without conscious desire to be citizens of that kingdom, without informed consent on their part, AND without a demonstration of INTENT to serve and obey God our Father and Jesus His Son.  (Samie would say, "without overcoming evil with good".)  This is why we will be judged by our works - the outward demonstration of understanding and intent. 

In other words - no FREE PASS for young children and ignorant pagans - despite their sins having been "purged".  (Here I still DIFFER with Samie.)  These people must be given the opportunity to HEAR, and to BELIEVE (I'm using the word in the Hebrew sense, which includes walking in the way one believes. In the Hebrew sense, "believe" is an action verb.  It is not something that happens only in the mind, and need effect nothing else.) 

I think, we must simply leave to God the question of who will He judge as overcomers.  After all, He is THE Righteous Judge, the Judge of all the earth (Gen 18:25; 2 Tim 4:8).  I wouldn't complain if there are young children and ignorant pagans in the new earth. 

The Bible records of one asking the LORD about the wound in His hands (Zech 13:6), and also of young children playing playing with asps and leading lions and leopards in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9).

[Samie]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

No Samie!  No!  No!  No! 

Becoming "part of His body" only happens WHEN we are betrothed to Him.  And that happens when we believe and enter into covenant. 

Because Jesus "died for all" does NOT MEAN that "all" became "part of His body" hanging on the cross.  No!

So how can one have the "POWER" to "believe and enter" PRIOR to their being "PLUGGED IN" to Christ - the ONLY Source of Power?

[Samie]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

At the risk of bolstering Samie's argument:

Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, 2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; 3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high" (NKJ)

This verse says that Jesus Christ "purged our sins" - and THEN returned to Heaven to sit at the right hand of God the Father.   I did not yet exist when Jesus "purged" my sins, and the sins of all mankind.  So - I think I've got to go with ALL SINS - of mankind - past/present/future. 

[Samie]

9 hours ago, jackson said:

No one is actually forgiven until they repent.

When one is NOT forgiven, he is yet APART from Christ - the ONLY Source of all POWER. So where would he get his power to repent if he is yet APART from the ONLY source of all POWER?

[Samie]

On 30/04/2017 at 5:47 AM, jackson said:

Everyone  is born with a measure of faith

 

9 hours ago, jackson said:

The only true unconditional gift is that of the measure of faith we are given at birth.

 

16 hours ago, Samie said:

IF one is NOT in Christ, he cannot bear fruit because Christ said only those in Him can bear fruit (John 15:4, 5).  IF one cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).

Hence your statements "Everyone  is born with a measure of faith" and "no one is born in Christ" are paradoxical. 

If you are NOT born in Christ, you CANNOT be born with a measure of faith.

How can one born NOT in Christ have the fruit of faith Christ said ONLY those in Him can bear?

[JoeMo]

On 4/27/2017 at 2:29 PM, Samie said:

NKJ Matthew 19:26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

I think you are stretching the meaning of this verse. I agree that without God, salvation is impossible.  But - while salvation is ONLY possible with God's grace, it doesn't mean that all are born saved - it simply means that salvation is possible.

[Samie]

2 hours ago, JoeMo said:

But - while salvation is ONLY possible with God's grace, it doesn't mean that all are born saved - it simply means that salvation is possible.

If people are born lost then they are born NOT (using Rachel's phrase) "PLUGGED IN" to Christ - the only Source of POWER. Can you please tell me how they can be "PLUGGED IN" to Him?

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, Samie said:

I think, we must simply leave to God the question of who will He judge as overcomers.  After all, He is THE Righteous Judge, the Judge of all the earth (Gen 18:25; 2 Tim 4:8).  I wouldn't complain if there are young children and ignorant pagans in the new earth. 

The Bible records of one asking the LORD about the wound in His hands (Zech 13:6), and also of young children playing playing with asps and leading lions and leopards in the new earth (Isa 11:6-9).

Samie,

You already know that I believe young children, those with mental disabilities, and all those who died in ignorance will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, will be governed by those already redeemed (who have been made "priests of God and of Christ"), and will then have to CHOOSE whom they will serve, and demonstrate their heart CHOICE by their actions.

There is NO FREE PASS - for any human being.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

There is NO FREE PASS - for any human being.

KJV Romans 3:24   Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, jackson said:

Rachel, we have to be careful not to take one verse and run with it if our understanding of it contradicts other verses.

Jackson, 

How MANY verses have I referenced in this thread.  I am NOT running with "one verse". 

1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (NKJ)

I'm saying that the purging was DONE ONCE, but the pardon is applied individually, as persons believe/confess/repent.

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/27/2017 at 3:37 PM, Samie said:

I believe, he was.  He just REFUSED to overcome evil with good.

According to Samie, we HAVE the power/ability to refuse, but we do NOT HAVE the ability to accept/open the door/believe. 

How can we have one but not have the other?  Why would God allow us the ability to SAY NO, and not allow us the ability to SAY YES?

The ability to say NO takes the same brain power as the ability to say YES.  (Though it may take more courage to say yes, depending on one's life circumstances.)

My belief concerning the work of God on the heart/mind, is that God gives us information upon which to base our decision.  Then we decide.  

He shows us how much He loves us (the story of Jesus sacrifice being the greatest "evidence").  

He points our mind to see the love/changes in people who know Jesus.

He brings us information about creation science/archeology/history.

He brings good teachers into our lives, to help us understand what the Bible is really saying - to make sense of it.  

He may work miracles for us, to convince us of His existence, and His personal care for us. 

He draws and pleads and convicts - mind to mind.

All these things He does, BECAUSE we must decide.  He cannot/will not decide FOR US. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/27/2017 at 3:55 PM, Samie said:

Predestination was involved in our being adopted children in Christ, that is, our being born "in Christ".

KJV Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will

If every person is born already "in Christ", then no one would need to be "grafted" into the "Tree" - the root of which is Christ. 

The "root" is holy and "nourishes you"  . 

Everyone would START LIFE as part of "the Tree".  But that is NOT the case.  Romans 11:17 says, "And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree"  Romans 11:19 "You will say then, 'Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.'" 

Romans 11:18  "remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you". 

The TREE represents Israel.  The holy ROOT represents Christ.  (Just like "the vine" supports the "branches".)  

Israel was "married" to the pre-incarnate Christ at Mount Sinai.  Branches of that TREE were "broken off" because of unbelief.  Individual Gentiles were "grafted in" when they came to believe.   Even those of Hebrew descent could be "grafted in again IF they do not continue in unbelief" (Rom. 11:23). 

Whether or not one is "grafted" into the TREE is all about belief.   So we do NOT start life as part of the TREE, just like we don't start life married. 

The "woman" of Rev. 11, 13 (bride of Christ) and the "olive tree" of Romans 11, both represent Israel.

[8thdaypriest]

44 minutes ago, Samie said:

KJV Romans 3:24   Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

You get the FREE GIFT only if you accept it. 

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

Can you please tell me how they can be "PLUGGED IN" to Him?

By their personal CHOICE to answer the invitation to "plug in".  Jesus stands at the door and knocks - He doesn't usually just barge in (although sometimes He might, like He did with Paul.  But Paul still had the choice to turn Him down.).

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/27/2017 at 4:45 PM, Samie said:

All are born In Him, part of His Body.  No one can come to God BUT through Him and Him alone.

So - we "come to God through" Christ, by already being IN Christ.   That means EVERY human being who ever/will ever live comes to God through Christ. 

THAT doesn't make sense. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 4/29/2017 at 9:03 AM, Samie said:

You have no power to ENTER unless you are plugged in first.

You have no power to ENTER, unless you are ALREADY "IN".

Doesn't make sense. 

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Samie said:

When one is NOT forgiven, he is yet APART from Christ - the ONLY Source of all POWER. So where would he get his power to repent if he is yet APART from the ONLY source of all POWER?

Samie,

The words/images you use - "part of His body" = "in Christ", just don't agree with the way those word images are used in the Scriptures.

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

The words/images you use - "part of His body" = "in Christ", just don't agree with the way those word images are used in the Scriptures. 

While I agree that those "in Christ" are "part of His body", I do NOT AGREE that we being life in this condition.

In Scripture we must be "grafted IN" by believing.  In Scripture we must ENTER INTO COVENANT to be "married" and thereby become "part of His body".