Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Samie]

Well, well, well.

The only difference I see between my position and that of JoeMo's and Rachel's is in the HOW of being in Christ.

I say,

     People are born ALREADY in Christ, born part of His Body, hence born already "PLUGGED IN" to Christ - the only Source of POWER.  Attached or "PLUGGED IN" to Christ, they have His Power to overcome evil with good.  Overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne, even as He likewise overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne.  When Christ returns to reward every man according to what he has done, all NOT blotted out will inherit life eternal and will be allowed entry into the heavenly portals.  All blotted out will suffer the wrath of God and finally, will have their portion in the lake of fire.
 

On the other hand, I think JoeMo and Rachel seem to say,

     People are born NOT in Christ, born NOT part of His Body, hence born NOT "PLUGGED IN" to Him Who is the ONLY Source of POWER.  To be "PLUGGED IN", they must exercise faith by believing. And the rest looks like my position, except that Rachel has her 8th day.

But for one to EXERCISE faith, he needs power to be able to do the exercising so that he can be PLUGGED IN to Him Who is the ONLY Source of POWER.  And that's their dilemma because while a person is NOT yet "PLUGGED" IN to Him Who is the ONLY Source of POWER, from WHAT source will the power of the people to believe come from which Rachel and JoeMo say people have?

And yet Rachel and JoeMo say my position is confusing.  Now if they are not confused with their position, why is it that they appear NOT able to explain how people have the power to exercise faith when they are not yet "PLUGGED IN" to the ONLY Source of POWER?

[Samie]

1 hour ago, jackson said:

He was not in Christ, and now he is and that his friends came to be in Christ before him.

jackson, you asked, I directly answered your question.  I asked, you resorted to alibi. Again:

12 hours ago, Samie said:

At what point in Paul's life do you think was he NOT in Christ?

 

[8thdaypriest]

This is Paul's description of the Ephesian believers - BEFORE they came to faith in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (NKJ)

How could they have been "without Christ" but "in Christ" at the same time?? 

[8thdaypriest]

4 minutes ago, Samie said:

jackson, you asked, I directly answered your question.  I asked, you resorted to alibi. Again:

 

Paul was NOT "in Christ" BEFORE the Damascus road experience which brought him to believe in Christ.  Those "in Christ" are those who believe "in Christ".  They are not "of the world". 

Those who are "in Christ" and "of God" are NOT "of the world".  Those "of the world" are invited to come OUT from "the world" - to become "sons of God".

 

Matthew 13:38 "The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one.

THREE things are mentioned in this verse:  1.  the world  2.  sons of the kingdom  3.  sons of the wicked one

BEFORE you become a "son of the kingdom" you are simply "in the world". 

BEFORE you become a "son of the kingdom" you are NOT "adopted in the Beloved" - NOT "grafted in" - NOT "in Christ". 

 

John 15:19 "If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

John 17:6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

John 17:14 "I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

1 John 4:5 [Enemies of God] They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them.

1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world.

1 John 5:5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

 

 

[Samie]

8 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

This is Paul's description of the Ephesian believers - BEFORE they came to faith in Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. (NKJ)

How could they have been "without Christ" but "in Christ" at the same time?? 

It's just like the same as Paul saying he is alive in Christ but he dies daily at the same time. 

Before they knew Christ, the Ephesians lived lives NOT in accord with Christ.  But that changed when they came to know Christ and Him crucified.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Paul was NOT "in Christ" BEFORE the Damascus road experience which brought him to believe in Christ.  Those "in Christ" are those who believe "in Christ".  They are not "of the world". 

Answering for jackson, Rachel?  OK.

So, instead of asking jackson, I'll ask you: If Paul was not in Christ before the road-to-Damascus experience, why did Paul say he was crucified with Christ?

[Samie]

17 minutes ago, jackson said:

Your answer was meaningless, and I think you know it. Paul said he came to be in Christ at a time after his mentioned friends came to be in Christ. Common sense and basic logic tell us that Paul was not in Christ  at a previous time . But your answer that Paul was born in Christ, and must have always been in Christ implies that Paul must be mistaken, for he could never come into Christ at a time after birth as he claims.

You and Paul are in disagreement  as to when he came into Christ. Whom should one believe, you or Paul, the inspired gospel writer?

It is irrelevant as to when Paul came to be "in Christ" What is relevant to this discussion is the fact that he came to be "in Christ" some time after birth.

I agree with Rachel that it was after Paul stopped persecuting Christians and soon after he met Jesus on the road.

So, if Paul was NOT in Christ when he was persecuting Christians before the road-to-Damascus experience, can you explain why he said he was crucified with Christ?

[JoeMo]

If Yahweh did everything for us in the Garden and at Cavalry, why would He need to carry on a ministry in the heavenly sanctuary?  If all of our sins were forgiven before the foundation of the world, why do we need to even live a physical life of probation?  Why didn't God just create us as spiritual beings?  If I was "born saved", why would I even need to be born?  Why couldn't I have just gone straight to heaven?  God seems kind of mean if we were born saved; and only live here for the opportunity to be lost by "not overcoming evil with good".  Sounds like a set-up for failure to me.  Samie's hypothesis seems like a dangerous one; and doesn't make God look very good.  I'd rather be born lost with with a probability of being saved than born saved with the significant risk of being lost.  If my salvation is totally up to the whims of an arbitrary God who picks those who are saved and those who are lost, why should I even try?  How do I be perfect, even as my heavenly Father is perfect?

"This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. (Rom 3:22-24)  RIghteousness is given to all who believe - not all.

"No one is good—except God alone." Mark 10:18.  If no one is good, how can we overcome evil with good?

[JoeMo]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

if Paul was NOT in Christ when he was persecuting Christians before the road-to-Damascus experience, can you explain why he said he was crucified with Christ?

Easy - He was crucified with Christ in the sense that He was sacrificing and suffering - just like Christ; not that he was crucified at the same time or on the same cross as Jesus.  You're really reaching, Samie!

[Samie]

To Rachel, JoeMo and jackson,

Can you three (3) help each other in explaining why Paul said he was crucified with Christ and yet you say he was NOT in Christ before his road-to-Damascus experience?

[Samie]

Just now, JoeMo said:

Easy - He was crucified with Christ in the sense that He was sacrificing and suffering - just like Christ

From the Bible or just your own?  Show Scriptures, brother.

[JoeMo]

" Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Cor. 13)  Why would Paul ask this if he had already been "crucified with Christ"?

Do you know the difference between the proverbial and the literal Samie?  If we are living to proclaim the Gospel to the point of sacrifice; we are PROVERBIALLY "crucified with Christ" - not literally.  I don't know of any living Christians that have nail holes in their hands and feet and a spear would in their sides.  Show me a scripture where it says Paul was literally crucified.  Wasn't he beheaded?  If so, that would have to be after he was crucified.

I know the questions I'm asking above seem silly; but "silly" is the only way to respond to your premise any more.

[Samie]

11 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

" Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul?" (1 Cor. 13)  Why would Paul ask this if he had already been "crucified with Christ"?

NAS Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me.

 

[Samie]

15 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Do you know the difference between the proverbial and the literal Samie?  If we are living to proclaim the Gospel to the point of sacrifice; we are PROVERBIALLY "crucified with Christ" - not literally.  I don't know of any living Christians that have nail holes in their hands and feet and a spear would in their sides.  Show me a scripture where it says Paul was literally crucified.  Wasn't he beheaded?  If so, that would have to be after he was crucified.

I know the questions I'm asking above seem silly; but "silly" is the only way to respond to your premise any more.

Still no Scriptures, brother?

[JoeMo]

17 minutes ago, JoMo said : "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? Is Christ divided?  (1 Cor. 1:13) 

5 Minutes ago, Samie said: "Still no scripture brother?"

Excuse me; but 1 Corinthians 1:13 is a scripture in my Bible; isn't that verse in your Bible?

 

[Samie]

Relative to Paul's statement that he had been crucified with Christ, if Rachel, JoeMo and jackson don't have Scriptures to back up their contention, then I have:

All died when Christ died. 2 Cor 5:14, 15.  Obviously, Paul is among the "all" he was talking about.

On the cross, God fashioned us into the Body of His Son thereby creating a new man: Christ - the Head, humanity (Jews & Gentiles) - the Body (Eph 2:

2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

17 minutes ago, JoMo said : "Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized in the name of Paul? Is Christ divided?  (1 Cor. 1:13) 

5 Minutes ago, Samie said: "Still no scripture brother?"

Excuse me; but 1 Corinthians 1:13 is a scripture in my Bible; isn't that verse in your Bible?

You could have also used Gen 1:1.  It's also a verse in my Bible.

 

[Samie]

It's one thing to use just any Scripture; another thing to use Scriptures directly RELEVANT to the issue at hand.

[Samie]

11 minutes ago, Samie said:

It's one thing to use just any Scripture; another thing to use Scriptures directly RELEVANT to the issue at hand.

Back to why Paul said he had been crucified with Christ:

All died when Christ died. 2 Cor 5:14, 15.  Obviously, Paul is among the "all" he was talking about.

On the cross, God fashioned us into the Body of His Son thereby creating a new man: Christ - the Head, humanity (Jews & Gentiles) - the Body.  When the Head died, we - His Body, died together with Him (Acts 20:28; 2 Cor 5:14, 15; Col 1:18; Eph 2:14-16; Heb 2:9).  When He - the Head, resurrected, we- His Body, were also resurrected, made alive together with Him (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13, 14), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3; Titus 3:7).

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Answering for jackson, Rachel?  OK.

So, instead of asking jackson, I'll ask you: If Paul was not in Christ before the road-to-Damascus experience, why did Paul say he was crucified with Christ?

WHEN he came to believe, he came to regard his OLD LIFE as dead.  Paul's OLD LIFE he regarded as "crucified" - LIKE CHRIST. 

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, Samie said:

And yet Rachel and JoeMo say my position is confusing.  Now if they are not confused with their position, why is it that they appear NOT able to explain how people have the power to exercise faith when they are not yet "PLUGGED IN" to the ONLY Source of POWER?

Sentient beings (angels and humans) were created with awareness/consciousness - of themselves, of their surroundings, and of their sensations.  They were created with the capacity to consider their options and to make choices, based upon expected future outcome - as opposed to always acting from instinct.   They did not loose that normal genetic trait when Adam sinned. 

Any normal human being has the capacity to believe, if he is given the information upon which to base belief.  Hence the command to "go and teach".  The only things that would hinder/prevent belief are 1. lack of information and 2. the desire to avoid compliance with the Law of God

Samie, I feel you take Christ words "without me you can do nothing" to EXTREME.   Do you think human beings cannot physically walk, or see, or scratch their heads - "without" Christ?  Of course they can.  

[8thdaypriest]

I think I'm going to take a break from this thread, and this subject. 

Bye for now.

Rachel

[Samie]

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Sentient beings (angels and humans) were created with awareness/consciousness - of themselves, of their surroundings, and of their sensations.  They were created with the capacity to consider their options and to make choices, based upon expected future outcome - as opposed to always acting from instinct.   They did not loose that normal genetic trait when Adam sinned. 

Any normal human being has the capacity to believe, if he is given the information upon which to base belief.  Hence the command to "go and teach".  The only things that would hinder/prevent belief are 1. lack of information and 2. the desire to avoid compliance with the Law of God

I agree. 

And that's all because of Christ - the ONLY Source of Power to do anything.  As Paul said: "I can do all things through Christ". And the converse is: I can "do nothing" without Christ.

 

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie, I feel you take Christ words "without me you can do nothing" to EXTREME.

English is not my first language but I don't think "do nothing" can mean "do something".

 

5 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Do you think human beings cannot physically walk, or see, or scratch their heads - "without" Christ?  Of course they can.

Without Christ, we would not have even existed in the first place, so how can we walk, see, or scratch our heads?

 

[Samie]

2 hours ago, jackson said:

Rom 6:3               Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?   6:4     Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.   6:5         For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:   6:6            Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

The Christian is crucified with Christ when he surrenders his will to Christ  This is symbolized by baptism but is demonstrated when he walks in newness of life ,- The "old man" having died. 

I don't think Paul, through the verses you quoted above, back up your statement "The Christian is crucified with Christ when he surrenders his will to Christ".

Paul cannot contradict his own statements.  He told the believers at Colossae that they were made alive TOGETHER WITH Christ (Col 2:13).  The resurrection of Jesus PRECEDED the Colossians' surrendering of their will to Christ.   Are you saying the making alive preceded their being crucified with Christ?  How could they be made alive TOGETHER WITH Christ when they have not yet died by being crucified with Christ?

[JoeMo]

I'm with Rachel.  I know what I believe; and I think I know what Samie believes.  Nothing Samie has said moves me in the slightest way to accept his premise; and he won't move to accept mine.  To avoid saying mean things, I too am retiring from this thread.

[8thdaypriest]

Now that we have explored Samie's doctrine in a long thread, perhaps in future, we can simply refer to this thread when Samie starts new threads on this SAME TOPIC, or tries to turn new threads into a discussion of his teaching.

What is the best way to refer to this thread? - by number, or by name??