Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

How do you get the power when you are NOT attached to the ONLY Source of POWER, jackson?

Easy. By ASKING to be attached through faith.  Jesus' answer is always yes; if we just ask and follow His bidding.  Not behavior management; but trusting on the spirit of Christ to gently lead us to His will for us.

[Samie]

24 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You are saying we are baptized because we already HAVE the Holy Spirit (the power source)

Nope.  I'm saying we were born again through the resurrection of Jesus.

 

26 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You are saying we are baptized because we already HAVE the Holy Spirit (the power source) and we repent because we have ALREADY BEEN forgiven.

Repentance is the Greek 'metanoia' - change of mind for that which is good.  Confronted with the opportunity and about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead.  PLUGGED IN to Christ - the ONLY Source of POWER, we have His POWER to repent, that is, overcome evil with good.

By teaching that people must first repent PRIOR to being forgiven, you are saying that people have power to repent (overcome evil) even when NOT PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER for overcoming evil.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Easy. By ASKING to be attached through faith.  Jesus' answer is always yes; if we just ask and follow His bidding.  Not behavior management; but trusting on the spirit of Christ to gently lead us to His will for us.

And where do you get the power to ask when you are not yet PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER?

[JoeMo]

Rachel made a comment earlier about universalism.  I thought about it; and came up with the following conundrum:

There are plenty of nominal believers who say "i've been a good person.  I've never stolen anything committed adultery, or killed anyone.  Why shouldn't I go to heaven?"  Are they saved?

There are plenty of atheists and pagans who do a great deal of good for mankind; yet totally reject the concept of the supernatural or the deity of Christ.  Are they saved? What entity gave them the "spark" to believe what they accept as "truth"?

There must be something besides the "spark of faith" required to overcome evil with good.  That thing is CHOOSING to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior; and submitting to Him.  God gave us the power to CHOOSE (i.e., free will). It's up to us to make that choice.

 

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, Samie said:

Jesus is ALWAYS turned on for us. No one can turn Him off.

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world.  He who comes to Me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life." 

So - where were men BEFORE they came to Christ?  Answer:  "in darkness". 

We must "come to" Him, in order to "have the light". 

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

Rachel made a comment earlier about universalism.  I thought about it; and came up with the following conundrum:

There are plenty of nominal believers who say "i've been a good person.  I've never stolen anything committed adultery, or killed anyone.  Why shouldn't I go to heaven?"  Are they saved?

There are plenty of atheists and pagans who do a great deal of good for mankind; yet totally reject the concept of the supernatural or the deity of Christ.  Are they saved? What entity gave them the "spark" to believe what they accept as "truth"?

There must be something besides the "spark of faith" required to overcome evil with good.  That thing is CHOOSING to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior; and submitting to Him.  God gave us the power to CHOOSE (i.e., free will). It's up to us to make that choice.

 

Jesus said, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life.  NO MAN comes to the Father, but by Me." 

[8thdaypriest]

I've been thinking about the multitudes of Gentiles who have lived and died in ignorance of Christ Jesus. 

The blood of Christ covered sins committed in ignorance.  That was the moed - the morning and evening sacrifice.  Rabbis teach that it also covered sins of ignorance committed by the Gentiles. 

So - there is a definite sense in which the blood of Jesus covers ignorant pagans. 

Does THAT mean these people are "saved" - meaning they will be made immortal at the Second Coming? 

I say NO! 

The covering only lasted UNTIL the person came to understand that his actions were sin.  Then he was to repent, bring a sin offering and confess his sin.  If he did not - then the "curse" of death would rest on him.  

The covering bought time - for the person to HEAR and REPENT.  The "covering" did NOT buy immortal life for these people, who never acknowledged Yahweh or His Law.

There is a state in which a person is NEITHER "saved" (all sins forgiven - will be raised immortal) NOR "cursed" (meaning appointed for destruction) as was King Saul when the LORD's spirit was withdrawn from him. 

These person's are simply yet "unsaved" and "uncircumcised".   They have not consciously REBELLED AGAINST GOD, but they HAVE "sinned" because their actions were forbidden by the Law of God, which governs all men.

Children before the age of accountability, are in the same condition. 

I believe that a JUST GOD must allow such people to TRANSITION FROM ignorant, unsaved, uncircumcised TO either SAVED or CONDEMNED and "cursed", based upon their own free will choice. 

[JoeMo]

Samie's definition of "repent" is turning away from evil to do good.  What about the times that God "repented"? (Gen:6-7-8, Ex. 32:14, (Deut. 32:36, Judges 2:18, 1Sam. 15, and many other places in the KJV).  I believe the definition of "repent" is to "turn from your present course"; or "change your mind".

[8thdaypriest]

Samie has been talking like there are only TWO conditions of men - in relation to God.

1.  "saved" (in the Book of Life, "in Christ", destined for eternal life)

2.  "lost " (destined for destruction in the Lake of Fire)

In his understanding #1 universally comes BEFORE #2

 I'm saying that there is an in between state.

0.  ignorant - undecided - not yet saved or lost

I believe this state ALWAYS COMES BEFORE either #1 or #2. 

And the blood of Christ DOES COVER all men during their ignorant/undecided stage of being.  God will judge their state of ignorance, and just WHEN they had enough evidence upon which to base belief (resulting in obedience) or rebellion.

If Samie wants to say that all men are therefore "in Christ" because they begin life "covered" by His blood, so be it. 

But I will NOT agree that all are "saints" or "the church" or "born again" or "born of the Spirit" or "written in The Book" for Eternal Life.   

[8thdaypriest]

Come to think of it, I'm not willing to say the "covered" ignorant undecided, are "in Christ" BECAUSE Paul uses that term to describe believers, and the change happens at a point in time.

Romans 16:7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

I think this is good - to find the right TERMS.  It helps to clarify our understanding.  And it will certainly strengthen my teaching ability.  

We must find TERMS that are consistent with those used in the Scriptures.   And we must use those TERMS as they are used in Scripture.  IF we don't do this, our message will become garbled and unclear.

To say that all men are born "in Christ" is not consistent with Scripture use of the term.  To say that all men are born "covered" by the blood of Christ IS compatible with Tabernacle imagery and law.

The Spirit is withdrawn from those who resist the LORD for long enough.  Their HEARTS are HARDENED.   Such persons are "already condemned" (John 3:18).  The fact that the Spirit of God pleads with ALL MEN, tells us these persons are NOT in a "condemned" condition.  They are UNDECIDED. 

It is because Jesus pleads His blood for these undecided people, that the Spirit of God is also pleading - with them.  There would be no reason to "go and teach all nations" IF God's spirit was not also pleading with them - leading them to accept/believe what they HEAR.  There would be no reason to pray for them. 

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

How about saying all men are born UNDER Christ, or UNDER GRACE, or "covered" - because they ARE "covered by His blood", until such time that they despise it, or willfully remain ignorant of it.  

[Samie]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Come to think of it, I'm not willing to say the "covered" ignorant undecided, are "in Christ" BECAUSE Paul uses that term to describe believers, and the change happens at a point in time.

Romans 16:7 "Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was."

I think Paul's use of the term "in Christ" in Rom 16:7 could refer either to their conversion to Christianity or to their being physically born.  I could say my father was in Christ before I was, without harming my position that my father and I were both crucified with Christ.  Just like Paul saying he was crucified with Christ and that all - and that should include Andronicus and Junia - died when Christ died.  Hence, although Paul said that Andronicus and Junia were IN CHRIST before he was, yet both he and them were crucified with Christ, just like the rest of us.

To say that those crucified with Christ refer only to believers cannot hold water, IMHO, because Paul's converts to Christianity were not yet believers when Christ was crucified.  And HE died FOR all, for every man.  It is of paramount IMPORTANCE that one is part of HIS BODY on the cross, because He is the ONLY offering for sin.  His DEATH is the ONLY DEATH that not only satisfied the requirement of the Law but also gave people another shot at life eternal.  Anyone NOT crucified with Christ will HAVE to die for his own sin, and dying APART from Christ, he forfeits life eternal for Christ is our Life (Col 3:4).

Was Paul in Christ when Christ died? Yes, he said he was crucified with Christ.  Were Andronicus and Junia in Christ when Christ died?  The biblical answer would be yes otherwise their sins are not covered.  So, who was in Christ before the other? NONE, because we were all in Christ when He died.  Thus the use of the term IN CHRIST in Rom 16:7 does not harm the spiritual application of Paul being with Andronicus and Junia together IN CHRIST when He died.  TOHETHER dying with Christ, we all were made alive TOGETHER WITH Him when He rose from the grave (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13), and BORN AGAIN to a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3; Titus 3:7).

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie,

How about saying all men are born UNDER Christ, or UNDER GRACE, or "covered" - because they ARE "covered by His blood", until such time that they despise it, or willfully remain ignorant of it.  

I agree. 

To be born under grace is just the same to be born In Christ because our being in Christ is all by God's grace, NOT an iota of human participation.  We only participate NOW in the Present Tense of Salvation where we, empowered by Him of Whose BODY we are part of, respond to God's command for all people everywhere to repent, that is, overcome evil with good.

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, Samie said:

I agree. 

To be born under grace is just the same to be born In Christ because our being in Christ is all by God's grace, NOT an iota of human participation.  We only participate NOW in the Present Tense of Salvation where we, empowered by Him of Whose BODY we are part of, respond to God's command for all people everywhere to repent, that is, overcome evil with good.

I do NOT AGREE Samie, that "covered by the blood of the moed" is the same as "in His body on the cross".  We are "baptized INTO His death". 

[Samie]

10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I do NOT AGREE Samie, that "covered by the blood of the moed" is the same as "in His body on the cross".  We are "baptized INTO His death". 

Well, I respect your opinion. 

BUT for quite a long time now, it seems you have no explanation on how people can have the power to BELIEVE or DECIDE to be baptized while NOT PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER.  Because if you can't back up your contention with Bible verses, then, how can it be Bible truth?

I don't know what you actually mean by "covered by the blood of the moed". 

As to our being fashioned into the Body of Christ on the cross, I think it's Scripture truth. See Eph 2:14-16; 2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9; Acts 20:28.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

As to our being fashioned into the Body of Christ on the cross, I think it's Scripture truth. See Eph 2:14-16; 2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9; Acts 20:28.

You take verses OUT OF CONTEXT to say that all men were crucified with/in Christ.  Those verses only apply to BELIEVERS, who have been "baptized in to Jesus Christ" and "baptized into His death"  (Romans 6:3). 

2 hours ago, Samie said:

Well, I respect your opinion. 

BUT for quite a long time now, it seems you have no explanation on how people can have the power to BELIEVE or DECIDE to be baptized while NOT PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER.  Because if you can't back up your contention with Bible verses, then, how can it be Bible truth?

We HAVE backed up and explained the power of the Spirit being available to those who do not yet believe.  You just don't like our explanation.  "Drawing" / pulling/ knocking /convicting power is VERY REAL.  It's like a magnet on iron.  One must RESIST with effort, in order not to be drawn to Christ, when one HEARS the Gospel, and FEELS the drawing. 

AFTER one opens his heart's door, responding to the spirit of Christ, THEN Jesus can use that person as a CHANNEL to win others, and to bless others.  AFTER we respond to the "knocking", then we become part of the magnet - to draw others.

Ephesians 1:13-14 "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession."

Only those who have been SEALED are guaranteed an inheritance in the promised Kingdom to come.  Those who have not yet HEARD, have not been SEALED.  That's how it works. 

HEAR - BELIEVE - filled with SPIRIT and thereby SEALED (promised an inheritance). 

Those who have NOT YET HEARD or not yet responded by BELIEVING - are only "covered" or "under grace" until they HEAR and respond with either BELIEF with SERVICE or RESISTANCE with REBELLION. 

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

You take verses OUT OF CONTEXT to say that all men were crucified with/in Christ.  Those verses only apply to BELIEVERS, who have been "baptized in to Jesus Christ" and "baptized into His death"  (Romans 6:3). 

You have no explanation as to how can you just SELECTIVELY apply Christ's dying "FOR EVERY MAN" to just dying for "SOME MEN".  

KJV Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

KJV Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Ephesians 2:14-16   14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,  15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,  16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Can't you see the senselessness of your contention that while a person is not yet a believer, Jesus did not yet die for him, and then when he becomes one, it's only then that Jesus died for him?  Using your logic, prior to your being baptized, Jesus did not die for you. Then moments later, after your baptism, it was then that Jesus died for you.

Hope you now see who's taking verses out of their true context.

[8thdaypriest]

11 hours ago, jackson said:

Of course he died for all men , but you fail to come to terms with the fact that His sacrificial blood  is only efficacious for those sinners  who  plead it with confession and repentance.

 Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, but blood alone, even Christ’s blood without confession, does not forgive sin. Christ’s blood is the   wonderful sacrificial offering and it is sufficient to cover every sin ever committed, but just as in the earthly sanctuary service, the sinner must sorrowfully confess his sins and agree to turn from them.

 God’s method of dealing with sin is found in the sanctuary service. The only difference now is that Jesus is both the High Priest and the sacrificial lamb. But confession and repentance are still required before sin is forgiven

 1 John  1:9       If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

For goodness sake, Samie, this is Bible study 101.

I think there is a difference between sins that are "covered" and sins that are "blotted out"/erased/forgiven.  The blood of Christ "covers" sins committed in ignorance, UNTIL the person HEARS and either believes (or rejects/resists) the message.   

The covering is grace.  We are "not [directly] under the law, but "under grace".  The LAW is still there, but grace stands BETWEEN us and the Law. 

Christ "carried" our sins, but He will eventually put them off - onto Satan (the original cause). 

[8thdaypriest]

On 5/7/2017 at 2:57 PM, Samie said:

To say that those crucified with Christ refer only to believers cannot hold water, IMHO, because Paul's converts to Christianity were not yet believers when Christ was crucified.  And HE died FOR all, for every man.  It is of paramount IMPORTANCE that one is part of HIS BODY on the cross, because He is the ONLY offering for sin.  His DEATH is the ONLY DEATH that not only satisfied the requirement of the Law but also gave people another shot at life eternal.  Anyone NOT crucified with Christ will HAVE to die for his own sin, and dying APART from Christ, he forfeits life eternal for Christ is our Life (Col 3:4).

Was Paul in Christ when Christ died? Yes, he said he was crucified with Christ.  Were Andronicus and Junia in Christ when Christ died?  The biblical answer would be yes otherwise their sins are not covered.  So, who was in Christ before the other? NONE, because we were all in Christ when He died.  Thus the use of the term IN CHRIST in Rom 16:7 does not harm the spiritual application of Paul being with Andronicus and Junia together IN CHRIST when He died.  TOHETHER dying with Christ, we all were made alive TOGETHER WITH Him when He rose from the grave (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13), and BORN AGAIN to a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3; Titus 3:7).

Samie, 

I think your teaching is absolute spin.  You are taking words like "with" to extreme - making them literal.  Paul was NOT LITERALLY CRUCIFIED.  He simply regarded himself DEAD to his old life - AS IF he had been crucified. 

In my opinion, your teaching is legalism. 

Legalism says:  God has a LAW.  The law says the penalty for "transgression of the LAW" is death. 

Adam transgressed.  Almost all his descendants have transgressed (unless they died as infants).  Therefore they must die. 

But God's Law allowed for a substitution.  The creator of Adam could DIE and his death would be acceptable to pay the death penalty FOR mankind. 

Samie,

I just don't believe this payment theory of the atonement. 

The LAW did not allow punishment of one man for the sins of another. 

Jesus came to earth, to fulfill the terms of the covenant made with Adam - the original covenant which gave DOMINION of earth to mankind, on condition of perfect obedience. 

Satan inserted himself into that DOMINION, by getting Adam to sin.  God had to withdraw HIS protection of man's DOMINION.

By fulfilling the condition of perfect obedience AS A MAN, Christ could recover DOMINION of earth. 

With dominion comes the right to say which humans will live within HIS DOMINION - hence Christ is judge.

Jesus said, "I know My sheep."   Jesus knows who serve Him and who do not. 

There is a study titled "DOMINION" at the prophecyviewpoint.com website.

http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/11-DOMINION.pdf

 

[Samie]

14 hours ago, jackson said:

Of course he died for all men, but you fail to come to terms with the fact that His sacrificial blood  is only efficacious for those sinners  who  plead it with confession and repentance.

 Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin, but blood alone, even Christ’s blood without confession, does not forgive sin. Christ’s blood is the   wonderful sacrificial offering and it is sufficient to cover every sin ever committed, but just as in the earthly sanctuary service, the sinner must sorrowfully confess his sins and agree to turn from them.

 God’s method of dealing with sin is found in the sanctuary service. The only difference now is that Jesus is both the High Priest and the sacrificial lamb. But confession and repentance are still required before sin is forgiven

 1 John  1:9       If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

For goodness sake, Samie, this is Bible study 101.

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Then, ALL died.  So, the Bible says.  Where's the verse that says If One died for all then all died If they believe as you ERRONEOUSLY teach in Bible study 000?

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie, 

I think your teaching is absolute spin.  You are taking words like "with" to extreme - making them literal.  Paul was NOT LITERALLY CRUCIFIED.  He simply regarded himself DEAD to his old life - AS IF he had been crucified. 

In my opinion, your teaching is legalism. 

Legalism says:  God has a LAW.  The law says the penalty for "transgression of the LAW" is death. 

When Bible verses that clearly goes against your theory are shown you, Rachel, you say my teaching is absolute spin. Those verses should mean what you think they mean otherwise it's a spin.  And to teach what those verses simply say is legalism.

So you are saying Paul was teaching legalism when he says the penalty for sin is not just death but eternal destruction?

NAS 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9  . . . when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,  8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.  9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

[JoeMo]

7 minutes ago, Samie said:

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

Then, ALL died.  So, the Bible says.  Where's the verse that says If One died for all then all died If they believe as you ERRONEOUSLY teach in Bible study 000?

You twist scripture here.  So, how do you come to the conclusion that "all died" when the scripture verse you quoted said "one died"?  This seems to be a contradiction of terms. Just because one dies for all doesn't mean that all died.  All have the opportunity to CHOOSE Jesus' sacrificial death as the payment of penalties for their sins; but the death of Jesus only benefits those who CHOOSE Jesus as Savior or Redeemer; in the same way that heirs only benefits from an inheritance if they CHOOSE to cash the checks. Who are they plugged into to CHOOSE to cash those checks?  No one.  What sparks them to "believe" that the money is real?

You never answered my question about whether "Christians" who say they have never done anything to warrant salvation just because they have never done something sufficiently horrible to deserve hell.  Nor have you answered my question about non-believers who indeed have overcome evil with good through their philanthropy?  According to your brand of theology, are these people (in your opinion) saved?  I will consider it avoiding the question if you simply say "it's up to God".

[Samie]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

You twist scripture here.  So, how do you come to the conclusion that "all died" when the scripture verse you quoted said "one died"?  This seems to be a contradiction of terms. Just because one dies for all doesn't mean that all died.

Oh, so Paul was wrong and JoeMo is right?

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   14 For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  15 and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

[JoeMo]

3 minutes ago, Samie said:

One died for all, then all died

Who was Paul talking to here - Believers or ALL MEN?  He was talking to believers about believers, not all men.  That should be obvious.

You still haven't answered my questions.  You criticize others' responses; yet you either refuse to answer or you dance around others' questions.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

Who was Paul talking to here - Believers or ALL MEN?  He was talking to believers about believers, not all men.  That should be obvious.

When shown a verse that directly contradicts your conclusion, it's a spin, a twist of Scripture, or  Paul was talking to someone else.

So being yet a non-believer before you got baptized in the baptistry, Jesus did not yet die for you, then moments later AFTER your baptism it was then that He died for you?