Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Samie]

43 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Then Samie said: Those verses don't say that repentance is necessary for forgiveness.

Yes they do - if confessing and forsaking does not fit your definition of repentance, then what does? Or is your next rabbit trail that "having mercy" is different than "forgiveness"?

JoeMo, Scripture used the Greek "metanoia" which means change of mind for that which is good.  Confronted with the opportunity and about to do evil, one changes his mind and does good instead.  That's overcoming evil with good and that's "metanoia" which is translated to English as repentance.  The meaning English speaking people attach to repentance may not be the exact meaning of the Greek "metanoia".

Repentance is doable only when people are already PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of Power for doing good.  Your trio sings music out-of-tune with Scripture by singing while NOT yet PLUGGED IN (being yet unforgiven) to the ONLY Source of Power for doing good, people can overcome evil with good (by doing the good act of repenting), and then they get PLUGGED IN.

I am really amazed at how good you 3 are merrily singing while together driving the cart before the horse.

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

I am really amazed at how good you 3 are merrily singing while together driving the cart before the horse.

I am really amazed  that you can stick to to your obviously erroneous doctrine with so much evidence against you; singing so much out of tune with most believers.  Besides universalists and new agers, what "denomination" believes like you do - that one is saved from birth - believer, pagan, or atheist.

IMHO this is not even a salvational issue; while my frustration with you is beginning to border on salvational.  I'd best leave this conversation before I say anything that could get me banned here.

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

I am really amazed  that you can stick to to your obviously erroneous doctrine with so much evidence against you; singing so much out of tune with most believers.  Besides universalists and new agers, what "denomination" believes like you do - that one is saved from birth - believer, pagan, or atheist.

Universalists believe no one gets to the lake of fire. I don't.

 

5 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

IMHO this is not even a salvational issue; while my frustration with you is beginning to border on salvational.  I'd best leave this conversation before I say anything that could get me banned here.

You put me in a rabbit trail, why get mad when I put you on a cart-driven-horse?

[8thdaypriest]

Samie says that God "forgave all sin" - past/present/future.  Then He says God will NOT FORGIVE the failure to "overcome evil".  Grief! That's like saying God will forgive all sin - except sin.  Ridiculous.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Samie says that God "forgave all sin" - past/present/future.  Then He says God will NOT FORGIVE the failure to "overcome evil".  Grief! That's like saying God will forgive all sin - except sin.  Ridiculous.

God forgave all sins - past, present, future. Yes, that's biblically true, IMO.  Christ's blotting of names from the book of life is simply because God judged those blotted out as non-overcomers, NOT that they were not forgiven.  They were.  That's why their names remained in the book of life all throughout their lifetime.  It is only at death when judgment is rendered whether to blot one's name or not.  There's hope while alive.

What is ridiculous is while believing that Christ is the ONLY Source of POWER, yet at the same time teaching that while NOT yet PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER for doing good, people have power to do the good act of repenting and then get PLUGGED IN after.

[8thdaypriest]

3 hours ago, Samie said:

Agree, as I agreed with the PLUGGED IN to Christ analogy.  We did NOT plug ourselves in to Christ. God PLUGGED us IN to Him when He fashioned us into the Body of His Son.  We cannot UNPLUG ourselves.  He will UNPLUG us by blotting our names from the book of life if He judges us as non-overcomers.  Our being PLUGGED IN to Christ is the Past Tense of Salvation.

We don't "put ourselves" into the magnetic field either Samie.  God put us there, through Jesus - "drawing" all men. 

And God withdraws His Spirit (magnetic force) WHEN our hearts become so hardened by our own resistance, that the magnetic force is having NO EFFECT. 

But we do not BECOME "part of" the magnet (magnetized) unless we are "filled with His spirit".  And that happens only IF we do not resist (open the door/ respond/believe).

Jesus used many different analogies.  He called them "parables". 

[Samie]

49 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

We don't "put ourselves" into the magnetic field either Samie.  God put us there, through Jesus - "drawing" all men. 

And God withdraws His Spirit (magnetic force) WHEN our hearts become so hardened by our own resistance, that the magnetic force is having NO EFFECT. 

But we do not BECOME "part of" the magnet (magnetized) unless we are "filled with His spirit".  And that happens only IF we do not resist (open the door/ respond/believe).

Jesus used many different analogies.  He called them "parables". 

Jesus used His parables properly. I doubt your use of them.  You don't even fully believe your own parable.  While it was you who brought up the analogy of PLUGGED IN to Christ, you still continue to teach that while not  yet PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER for doing good, people have the Power to do the good act of repenting and then they get PLUGGED IN. 

It is as if you are teaching that light bulbs in your house light up by themselves PRIOR to their being PLUGGED IN to the one and only source of power in your house.  So why plug them in when they can light up by themselves? 

Sorry, but it appears you cannot see the senselessness of your position.

[Samie]

jackson,

The verses you quoted all fall under the Present Tense of Salvation, NOT under the Past Tense of Salvation.  In the Past Tense, God empowered us by PLUGGING us IN to Christ, the ONLY Source of POWER for doing good.  In the Present Tense, we utilize that power to overcome evil with good.  Repenting is overcoming the evil of being impenitent.

[JoeMo]

15 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

God withdraws His Spirit (magnetic force) WHEN our hearts become so hardened by our own resistance, that the magnetic force is having NO EFFECT. 

I know I said I was gonna stay out of this; but I wanted to comment on Rachel's statement.  IMO, God doesn't withdraw His Spirit, we reject it.  The Spirit is always there; but if we "practice" resisting it long enough, the result is the same - we are no longer influenced by the "magnet".  This is where we differ from iron.  Iron has no choice on whether or not to be magnetized.  We do.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I know I said I was gonna stay out of this; but I wanted to comment on Rachel's statement.  IMO, God doesn't withdraw His Spirit, we reject it.  The Spirit is always there; but if we "practice" resisting it long enough, the result is the same - we are no longer influenced by the "magnet".  This is where we differ from iron.  Iron has no choice on whether or not to be magnetized.  We do.

Yes - thank you Joe. 

I was remembering David's prayer - "cast me not from thy presence and take not thy holy spirit from me" (Psalm 51:11).

I know "the spirit of God" "came upon" King Saul after he was anointed by Samuel, but I guess that was an additional "gift" of the spirit - to prophesy- not the spirit which simply draws and convicts all men. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

20 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

  On 5/10/2017 at 1:41 PM, Samie said:

Agree, as I agreed with the PLUGGED IN to Christ analogy.  We did NOT plug ourselves in to Christ. God PLUGGED us IN to Him when He fashioned us into the Body of His Son.  We cannot UNPLUG ourselves.  He will UNPLUG us by blotting our names from the book of life if He judges us as non-overcomers.  Our being PLUGGED IN to Christ is the Past Tense of Salvation.

("fashioned us into the Body of His Son")     Where does it say this in Scripture?

[8thdaypriest]

The Greek word translated as "church" IS the same Greek word used in the Septuagint.  But in the OT Septuagint - it is translated into English as "the congregation" or "the assembly". 

From Exodus onward "the congregation" is always "the congregation OF Israel" or "the congregation OF the LORD". 

Never - does "the congregation" refer to the whole of mankind.

When we get to the New Testament, unbelievers are "broken off" FROM "Israel" and believers are "grafted in" to "the congregation of Israel" (the CHURCH). 

Christ "has been made the head of all things to the congregation".  [He IS NOT YET "head" over this world, because He has NOT YET been given DOMINION over this world.  THAT will come at the end of this age.]

He is HEAD of the congregation, because He is the espoused "husband" OF "the congregation of Israel".  

The intended "wife" must consent to the marriage - by covenant.  THIS is how we are "written in the Book".

Just as the LORD divorced the 10 Northern Tribes of Israel, Jesus will "divorce" those who are unfaithful to their covenant with Him (without confession/repentance).  These will be "broken off" and "blotted out".

In the New Testament Scriptures - "the church" is always used to describe those who believe in Christ, and seek to serve Him.  It is never used to refer to "the whole world" or "the whole of mankind". 

"the congregation of Israel" IS "the body of Christ". 

Conclusion:  All of mankind WAS NOT made into the Body of Christ. 

 

[Samie]

16 hours ago, jackson said:

If you were the Apostles or Paul , which sins should you  repent of to receive forgiveness -those you committed  before Christ died or those after the cross.

We don't repent to receive forgiveness.  Instead, we are able to repent, because we have been forgiven.  Forgiveness is a done deal.  When Christ died, we were cleansed from all sins - past, present, future.

NASB Colossians 2:13-14   13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

NKJ Revelation 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed us from our sins in His own blood,

NKJ Colossians 1:14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins

 

16 hours ago, jackson said:

When does past salvation end and present salvation begin? Please use scripture.

The Past Tense of Salvation is ALL God's work FOR man. All grace; no human work or participation whatsoever (Eph 2:4-6; Titus 3:4-7). It started when God devised the plan of Salvation BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4-5; 2 Tim 1:8-10) and implemented it right on the same day the emergency occurred in Eden when Adam fell into sin, by saving Him through Christ (Acts 4:12), an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8).  This gracious saving act of God was manifested and revealed in the life, death, resurrection and High Priestly ministry of our Lord in the heavenly sanctuary. (2 Tim 1:8-10; John 6:33; Rom 4:25; Heb 9:24-27; 10:10-14; etc.).  Through Christ, God fashioned us into the Body of His Son, thereby creating a new man (Eph 2:14-16): Christ - the Head, Humanity - the Body.  When the Head died, we, His Body died with Him (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9; Gal 2:20; 1 Pet 2:24; Acts 20:28).  And when He - the Head, resurrected, we - His Body, were resurrected and made alive TOGETHER WITH Him (Eph 2:4-6; Col 2:13), born again into a living hope of life eternal (1 Pet 1:3; Titus 3:7).

The Present Tense of Salvation comes into play when a person is conceived and exists all throughout his lifetime.  Having been made part of the Body of His Son in the Past Tense of Salvation, we all have been empowered (Phil 4:13) to overcome evil with good (Rom 12:21).  If one commits sin, the sin committed having been forgiven when the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world died, is NOT imputed against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19).  This is God's act of JUSTIFYING us through Christ Who was resurrected for our justification (Rom 4:25). Hence the sin committed does not and cannot separate us from God anymore (Rom 6:14) and we remain in Him while alive.  When a person dies, judgment is rendered whether to blot his name or not from the book of life.  If God judges him as an overcomer, his name stays in the book, otherwise Christ Himself blots his name from it, effectively dismembering Him from His body and expelled from membership in the family of God.

This explains why the command for people to repent (overcome evil with good) is the same command given in the old covenant (Ezek 18:30), the same command God now wants all men everywhere to do (Acts 18:30), the same command Christ issued when He preached the gospel of the kingdom (Mark 1:14, 15), the same gospel He wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14), to reward each one according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12).

[8thdaypriest]

Jesus was "made to be sin(offering) for us all". 

Jesus was "cursed" for us (Gal 3:13). 

Going back to Tabernacle imagery, the sin offering CARRIED only confessed sin.  Right?

And the priest CARRIED only that confessed sin into the Tabernacle (either by eating some of the sin offering, or directly by carrying the blood).

Now - the morning/evening sacrifice was offered for sins committed in ignorance.  The priest who offered that sacrifice would confess FOR the ignorant. 

So - once again.  The sin offering - whether individual, congregational, or for the ignorant - only CARRIED confessed sin. 

That would mean sins of rebellion - known sin which was never confessed - was NOT CARRIED by the sin offering, or by the priest. 

If we apply that to Jesus - the Lamb of God - then Jesus CARRIED only confessed sin - NOT known sin of rebellion which was never confessed or repented of. 

Those who never confess their known sin, are consigned to the "lake of fire" along with Satan and his angels.  Jesus did not die FOR those sins.

If Jesus died FOR and paid FOR "all sin" - then God is obligated to forgive all sin.  It's been paid for. 

And failure to overcome known evil IS sin. 

Conclusion:  God did NOT forgive all sin/ for all time/ for all mankind - either on the day Adam sinned, or when Jesus died on the cross. 

Therefore:  "us all" and "us" can refer ONLY to those who confess their sin/ or those for whom confession is made (those who sin ignorantly)

"us all" and "us" do NOT REFER to "all mankind"

 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

("fashioned us into the Body of His Son")     Where does it say this in Scripture?

NKJ Ephesians 2:14-16   14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,  15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,  16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

[Samie]

33 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In the New Testament Scriptures - "the church" is always used to describe those who believe in Christ, and seek to serve Him.  It is never used to refer to "the whole world" or "the whole of mankind". 

"the congregation of Israel" IS "the body of Christ". 

Conclusion:  All of mankind WAS NOT made into the Body of Christ. 

The church is the body of Christ, the Head (Col 1:18).  Therefore, we all, being part of His body (Eph 2:14-16), compose the Church, UNTIL one's name is blotted out from the book of life.

The Bible defines the Church as being composed of those for whom Christ died having purchased the with His own blood (Acts 20:28).  Since Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9), we all compose the Church.

 

[8thdaypriest]

1 minute ago, Samie said:

NKJ Ephesians 2:14-16   14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,  15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,  16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.

The "one man" - "one body" is now made up of Hebrews who believe in Jesus, and non-Hebrews who believe in Jesus.  But ALL (in the body) must believe in Jesus.  No-one is "grafted in" to "the congregation of Israel", the betrothed BRIDE of Christ, who does not believe in Him. 

Jesus abolished "the hatred" between Hebrews and non-Hebrews.   

He abolished the commandment to regard the physically uncircumcised as "unclean" (to be avoided, so far as any covenant, and not allowed to enter the Tabernacle).  This was reinforced in the roof vision of Peter. 

But the admonition to avoid the "ungodly" or the "worldly" still applies.  Those who "walk together" are agreed, so far as their belief in Christ. 

The "one man" and "one body" IS NOT the entire world. 

[8thdaypriest]

2 minutes ago, Samie said:

The church is the body of Christ, the Head (Col 1:18).  Therefore, we all, being part of His body (Eph 2:14-16), compose the Church, UNTIL one's name is blotted out from the book of life.

The Bible defines the Church as being composed of those for whom Christ died having purchased the with His own blood (Acts 20:28).  Since Christ died for all (2 Cor 5:14, 15; Heb 2:9), we all compose the Church.

 

I realize that's what you believe Samie.  I do not agree that the verses you site, support your view. 

I just posted my reasons for believing that Christ DID NOT DIE FOR known rebellious sin, for which there is no confession/repentance.

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The "one man" - "one body" is now made up of Hebrews who believe in Jesus, and non-Hebrews who believe in Jesus.  But ALL (in the body) must believe in Jesus.  No-one is "grafted in" to "the congregation of Israel", the betrothed BRIDE of Christ, who does not believe in Him. 

Jesus abolished "the hatred" between Hebrews and non-Hebrews.   

He abolished the commandment to regard the physically uncircumcised as "unclean" (to be avoided, so far as any covenant, and not allowed to enter the Tabernacle).  This was reinforced in the roof vision of Peter. 

But the admonition to avoid the "ungodly" or the "worldly" still applies.  Those who "walk together" are agreed, so far as their belief in Christ. 

The "one man" and "one body" IS NOT the entire world. 

When Christ died, NO ONE was yet what you Rachel calls a "believer".  Therefore, your position that only believers were fashioned into His Body does not and cannot apply.

[8thdaypriest]

If/when I think of anything new to add, I'll get back on.

Out for now.  Blessings.  Rachel

[Samie]

1 minute ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I realize that's what you believe Samie.  I do not agree that the verses you site, support your view.

Disagreement does not necessarily mean the verses do not support my view.

 

1 minute ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I just posted my reasons for believing that Christ DID NOT DIE FOR known rebellious sin, for which there is no confession/repentance.

The Bible says we were forgiven from all sins:

NASB Colossians 2:13-14   13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

 

[Samie]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

Samie, your whole doctrine is contradicted by numerous scripture that have been given you over the course of this thread so I won’t repeat myself.. When a doctrine forces scripture to contradict itself, one should immediately reevaluate the doctrine. You, instead just ignore  the contradictory verses.

Which verses?  The verses you misapply?

 

5 hours ago, jackson said:

But there is one error of yours that hadn’t been addressed yet., and that is this notion that since you are saved wholly of grace there is no human participation in the process. You said:

The Past Tense of Salvation is ALL God's work FOR man. All grace; no human work or participation whatsoever (Eph 2:4-6; Titus 3:4-7).

 But you have forgotten that the grace that enables salvation, works  through faith, and without faith  you can neither  please God, nor be saved.

 Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:   2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 

 Heb 11:6         But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So whose faith? Man's faith? No, brother. Rather, it is the faith of the Son of God, a measure of which He apportioned to each of us (Rom 12:3).

Why don't you believe Jesus when He said APART from Him man can do NOTHING by insisting people APART from Christ can do SOMETHING instead of NOTHING?  For sooooo many, many times, you have been told over and over and over Jesus' own words that only those in Him can bear fruit. And faith is fruit. So if you have faith, then you are already in Christ. What or who prevents you from understanding this simple fact even a child can readily understand?

Again, you are teaching a works-based salvation (believe first to be In Christ) that can NEVER save anyone:

1.  When one is born NOT in Christ, he is born APART from Him.

2.  Apart from Christ, man cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit.

3.  If one cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit.

4.  If one cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe.

5.  If he cannot believe, then according to your false teaching, he cannot be in Christ.

Therefore any one born NOT in Christ can NEVER be in Christ, as sung by your trio while driving a cart-driven-horse.

 

 

[Samie]

5 hours ago, jackson said:

You have to believe in Christ, eat His flesh and drink His blood to be saved.

To be saved in the FUTURE TENSE of salvation, NOT in the Past Tense of Salvation.  You are MISAPPLYING verses that concern the future tense and misapply it  to the past tense of salvation which is to be in Christ FIRST AND FOREMOST.

People now can do the spiritual acts of believing, eating His flesh and drinking His blood because they are ALREADY spiritually alive.  Unless PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of Power, people can do NOTHING, Christ said.

[Samie]

6 hours ago, jackson said:

Now the faith through grace that saves is a faith that works. A do nothing faith is dead and cannot save.

So stop saying there is no human participation.

I have already told you, jackson, there is participation NOW in the Present Tense of Salvation for people to be saved in the Future Tense of Salvation.  That participation is REPENTANCE - overcoming evil with good.  But there is NO HUMAN PARTICIPATION WHATSOEVER in the Past Tense of Salvation: we were simply PLUGGED IN to Christ.  Whether you believe it or not, whether you know about it or not.

 

6 hours ago, jackson said:

We are given power to become sons and daughters of God. We are not born so.

God PLUGGED US IN to Christ, the ONLY Source of Power, so we can overcome evil with good being sons and daughters of God.  We were born ALREADY PLUGGED IN to Him, by grace.

NKJ Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

[Samie]

6 hours ago, jackson said:

Also, there is no past salvation.

Then you believe you are not yet saved, jackson?  I have good news for you.  God already saved you by his grace!!!

KJV 2 Timothy 1:8-10   8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;  9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,  10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: