8thdaypriest Posted June 3, 2017 Posted June 3, 2017 Matthew 13:47-50 “So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.” Fits with Rev. 19:20 and Matthew 25:31-34 & 41. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted June 3, 2017 Posted June 3, 2017 Matthew 12:41 “The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.” Matthew 12:42 “The Queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.” The Queen of Sheba, and the people of Nineveh will be resurrected on the day of judgment, with the generation of Christ’s day. Once again, we see BOTH forgiven and unforgiven resurrected on the same day - the DAY of judgment. JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 19 hours ago, jackson said: 2 Thes 1:9 , which you quoted above, is contradictory to what Paul says in 2 Thes 2:;8 and contradicts the verses in Revelation above. The only way it would not be contradictory is if Paul was referring to everlasting destruction as the ultimate punishment and not as to their present death at the Second Coming.----Or that some wicked die at the Second Coming without ever having to face the second death. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9 "Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders" (NKJ). COMMENTS: For me, the "son of perdition" - the "man of sin" - the "lawless one" will be the Antichrist. And He will sit "in the Temple of God" - demanding worship of Himself. This will be the same "King of the North" described in Daniel Chapter Eleven, who will "take away the daily and place there the abomination of desolation" (in the Temple @ Jerusalem). Daniel 11:36 parallels 2 Thessalonians 2:1-9. The "abomination of desolation" will be "the image of the Beast". And who deceives "those who dwell on the earth" into making this image of the Beast? Answer: The lamb-like Beast from "the land" (Rev. 13:14). I believe the lamb-like beast from "the land" is also "the little horn", which pushes out 3 horns as it rises to finally exercise ALL the authority of the terrible BEAST. The lamb-like beast IS the Antichrist - and IS "the false prophet" - because He speaks FOR the whole terrible Beast. The "little horn" is attached on "the Beast". The "little horn" is one of the Beast's horns! And the whole BEAST - heads, horns, and all - is thrown alive into the "lake of fire" @ the Second Coming. So - whether Paul says, "consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming" OR "thrown alive into the lake of fire" - it is the SAME ENTITY being destroyed in both passages. And the "lake of fire" IS "the second death". 19 hours ago, jackson said: In your quote 2 Thes 1:8 Paul says that the wicked will be punished with everlasting destruction at the Second Coming In 2 Thes 2:8 Paul says that at the Second Coming the wicked will be destroyed by the brightness of his coming “ If we take these 2 verses at face value, they contradict each other, for everlasting destruction is the Second death. Being destroyed by the brightness’ of his coming is the first death for John says The Second death is the lake of fire I don't see the problem. "Those who do not know God", and "those who do not obey the gospel" are first killed by divine "fire" (first physical death) and then what remains of them (their spirits/memory) is destroyed eternally in "the lake of fire" (second type of death). They are DEAD, and can never be resurrected again. No good would come from resurrecting them AGAIN, to hear judgment pronounced against them AGAIN, to execute them AGAIN. BOTH types of death HAPPEN @ the Second Coming. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted June 4, 2017 Posted June 4, 2017 On 5/31/2017 at 1:08 AM, jackson said: But earlier you said the judgment was about Jesus being worthy to be given dominion. Now you are acknowledging that he was judged worthy at His ascension. The judgment is not about Jesus at all. It is primarily about us and who will be part of His dominion. Jesus is not on trial. We are. He is not on probation. We are. The fact that Jesus will be the husband of the New Jerusalem, and King of Kings and Lord of Lords is not contingent on His books being opened in the judgment to see if He is worthy. It is you ,I and everyone who has ever lived whose books will be opened. Actually Jackson, I believe it is Satan, his followers, and the Beast - who are JUDGED in the court scene of Daniel 7:9-10. They are judged as unworthy of dominion. Dominion is then "taken from" the Beast, and is given to "the saints", under Christ as King. Daniel 7:26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever." (NAU) And this happens AT the return of Christ in glory. If we belong to Christ, our sins are "covered" and "washed". They will not be on display in the judgment - for all to read. Sort of like a document with information redacted. "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered" (Psa 32:1 NKJ). John 5:22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son," (NKJ) Christ says either "This one is mine." OR "Depart from Me. I never knew you." Those who are not claimed by Christ as belonging to Him, will be judged by God the Father, "according to their deeds". 1 Peter 1:17 "If you invoke as Father the one who judges all people impartially according to their deeds, live in reverent fear during the time of your exile." (NRS) Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 9 hours ago, jackson said: Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, .........20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: ........ 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. ........ 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. The point is that the wicked dead are not raised at the Second Coming to face the Second Death. They are raised 1000 years later to face the Second death along with Satan. This validates Revelation's claim that the first resurrection is for the blessed. This also contradicts your belief that the wicked dead are raised at the Second Coming to face the executive judgment of the Second Death (Lake of Fire) I think you also stated that the resurrection after the 1000 years is for the" young and uninformed" to give them a period of probation. But Revelation says the White Throne Judgement is for the wicked only. 1. There is no verse which says that "the rest of the dead" are all wicked or lost. 2. Verse 9 "fire came down from heaven and devoured them. Verse 11 "Then I saw a great white throne. The great white throne judgment FOLLOWS AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle. IF "the rest of the dead" are consumed by fire during the Gog/Magog Battle - then they are DEAD, when the great white throne judgment sits. They are not resurrected AGAIN for that judgment. There is no prediction of yet another resurrection. They "stand before God" only in the sense of the record of their lives. This judgment looks at every person who is physically DEAD at this point - to determine whether they should ever be resurrected again. God the Father judges them by their works. The Book of Life is checked one last time. It is determined that none of these persons should ever be raised from death again. God destroys the memory He has retained of them - in the special "lake of fire". The Devil, the Beats, and the False Prophet are ALREADY in that "lake of fire", the Devil at Gog/Magog, and the Beast/False Prophet @ the Second Coming. When death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, that will include every person who - at that point - IS physically DEAD. NAU Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." 3. To "stand before God" is to be consumed - unless one has an immortal spiritual body. The wicked could NOT "stand before God" unless it was in the sense of their records - in the "books". 4. And WHAT is the point of letting Satan loose - to "deceive the nations" - if every person has already made his final choice? In my opinion, Satan is loosed precisely BECAUSE these are people who have NOT made their final informed choice. JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 I agree with your logic above Rachel. Why would God raise people who were previously executed just to execute them again? It either makes no sense; or God is "mean". I don't think it makes sense. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 5, 2017 Posted June 5, 2017 Here is the sequence of events - as I see them. We have only addressed a few verses from Daniel/Revelation/and Paul's writings, which concern only #7, #8, and #9 of this list. What about numbers 1-6? What about all the "strangers", "aliens" and "foreigners" whom the prophets saw "in the land" WITH Israel returned, living under Messiah's reign? 1. Israel Redeemed will be returned to “the land.” They will rebuild and restore. 2. The House of the LORD will be restored on Mount Zion. A healing river will flow out from the Temple of the LORD. 3. Multitudes will be raised to life. Nations of them will fill the earth. These are “the rest of the dead” who were not resurrected at the Second Coming. 4. Messiah will reign on David’s throne. Jesus Christ will be king and priest. 5. Israel redeemed will serve as “a kingdom of priests” under Christ their High Priest. They will reign over - govern over “the nations” who are resurrected. 6. Many from the nations will come to know the LORD. They will be welcomed into the family of God. 7. Gog of Magog will lead a rebellion to overthrow the reign of Christ. The army of Gog will be devoured by fire from God out of Heaven. 8. There will be a final review of the records - the Great White Throne Judgment. 9. Death and the abode of the dead (Sheol) will be destroyed in the “lake of fire.” Isaiah 2:1-4 “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains [above all kingdoms], and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:’ for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. Jehovah’s House (kingdom) has been established above all other kingdoms. This means that Christ has come. These events take place AFTER the Second Coming. Growing up, I was taught that the wicked will be raised in “the second resurrection” at the 8th millennium, to be judged and then annihilated. But here we see “peoples” (non-Israelites) going up to the House of God, where they expect that “He will teach us his ways”. Their desire is to “walk in his paths”. Doesn’t sound like people who should be annihilated. Isaiah 2:1-4 [Continued] And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (ASV) (See also Micah 4:1-2.) NOTE: The involvement of “many peoples” is obvious. And these are NOT Israel. “All nations” flow up to Jehovah’s house. This is a new age - and “he will judge between the nations.” This is the Kingdom of Messiah. And what about the role of the redeemed AS PRIESTS? The 24 Elders say they will "reign on the earth" as "kings AND priests". Isaiah 61:4-9 “And they [the returned] shall rebuild the old ruins, They shall raise up the former desolations, And they shall repair the ruined cities, The desolations of many generations. Strangers [non-Israelites] shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the foreigner shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers. (See Isa. 14:1-2.) But you shall be named the priests of the LORD. They shall call you the servants of our God. You shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, And in their glory you shall boast. Instead of your shame you shall have double honor, [the inheritance of the firstborn] And instead of confusion they shall rejoice in their portion. Therefore in their land they shall possess double; Everlasting joy shall be theirs. For I, the LORD, love justice; I hate robbery for burnt offering; I will direct their work in truth, And will make with them an everlasting covenant [The New Covenant]. Their descendants shall be known among the Gentiles, [the nations] And their offspring among the people. All who see them shall acknowledge them, That they are the posterity whom the LORD has blessed.” NOTE: These CANNOT be Levite priests, because the Levites were to have “no inheritance in the land” much less a “double” portion. If non-Israelites are helping Israel to work their fields and vineyards, and going up to the House of the Lord to learn His ways, that doesn't sound at all, like they are resurrected simply to be rounded up for execution. Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 16 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: If non-Israelites are helping Israel to work their fields and vineyards, and going up to the House of the Lord to learn His ways, that doesn't sound at all, like they are resurrected simply to be rounded up for execution. What makes you sure that Isaiah 2 and 61 are post-millennial prophecies? Couldn't these prophecies be millennial prophecies? LifeHiscost 1 Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 1 hour ago, JoeMo said: What makes you sure that Isaiah 2 and 61 are post-millennial prophecies? Couldn't these prophecies be millennial prophecies? Micah 4:1-8 repeats much of Isaiah 2. Micah 4:1 "In the latter days the mountain of the LORD's temple will be established as the highest of the mountains; it will be exalted above the hills, and peoples will stream to it. 2 Many nations will come and say, 'Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the temple of the God of Jacob. He will teach us his ways, so that we may walk in his paths.' The law will go out from Zion, the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 3 He will judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. 4 Everyone will sit under their own vine and under their own fig tree, and no one will make them afraid, for the LORD Almighty has spoken. 5 All the nations may walk in the name of their gods, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God for ever and ever. 6 "In that day," declares the LORD, "I will gather the lame; I will assemble the exiles and those I have brought to grief. 7 I will make the lame my remnant, those driven away a strong nation. The LORD will rule over them in Mount Zion from that day and forever. 8 As for you, watchtower of the flock, stronghold of Daughter Zion, the former dominion will be restored to you; kingship will come to Daughter Jerusalem." The last verses of Chapter 3 tell us what comes BEFORE the restoration. Micah 3:13 "Zion shall be plowed like a field, Jerusalem shall become heaps of ruins, and the mountain of the Temple like the bare hills." Certainly nothing like the restoration described came for Jerusalem AFTER the return from Babylon. Jerusalem was in fact, leveled again by the Romans. No king reigning from Jerusalem would "judge between many peoples and will settle disputes for strong nations far and wide." And the nations certainly did NOT "beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore." So Isaiah 2 and Micah 4 describe MESSIAH'S REIGN. The point I was making in my last post, was that "foreigners", "strangers", and "aliens" are seen living peacefully with Israel returned to "the land" - with returned Israelites serving as governing priests. I was only countering the idea and all of the "lost" are simply resurrected to be executed. I know that Jackson believes redeemed Israel will return to the earth at the 8th millennium. You on the other hand Joe, believe that redeemed Israel will be returned to "the land" at the Second Coming, and that is when Christ will begin to reign on the earth. These verses alone cannot prove the WHEN. Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 11 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: You on the other hand Joe, believe that redeemed Israel will be returned to "the land" at the Second Coming, and that is when Christ will begin to reign on the earth. These verses alone cannot prove the WHEN. That's not quite accurate Rachel. I currently believe that Israel has ALREADY returned to the land - about 70 years ago. I believe that: 1. God would return secular Israel to their homeland. 2. Secular Israel would once again (or continue to) reject Yahweh and Yeshua. 3. God would punish Israel by bringing the surrounding nations against them; but this time Israel would be on the verge of bitter defeat and destruction. 4. Jesus would return and destroy Israel's enemies; and demonstrate that He whom they had pierced is indeed the prophesied Messiah. Note these verses from Jer. 30: The word that came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying, 2 Thus speaketh the Lord God of Israel, saying, Write thee all the words that I have spoken unto thee in a book. 3 For, lo, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the Lord: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it. 4 And these are the words that the Lord spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. 5 For thus saith the Lord; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. 6 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? 7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble, but he shall be saved out of it. 8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Lord of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the Lord their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Rather than quote the entire chapter, You can (and probably have) read it for yourself. There are plenty of other OT scriptures to back up old Jer's story. You are correct that the big difference between our views is that I DO believe people - especially people living far away from the Middle East - will survive the second coming; and they are the ones who come to Jerusalem bearing gifts to restore the temple. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 WHY DO I BELIEVE THE EARTH WILL BE BARREN AND UNINHABITED - DURING THE upcoming 7TH MILLENNIUM 1. This planet has not kept God's rest day (7th day) or God's "rest" year (the 7th year) for almost 6000 years. The 7th millennium will fulfill the "rest" for this earth. During "the rest year" nothing was sown, and nothing was reaped. Which means the Gospel cannot be sown on this earth, and no souls can be harvested. The prophecies of Messiah's reign, definitely show a teaching of the Word, and multitudes coming up to the House of the LORD to learn His ways. The LORD said that desolation IS "rest" for the earth. Leviticus 26:33-35 “I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you; your land shall be desolate and your cities waste. Then the land shall enjoy its sabbaths as long as it lies desolate and you are in your enemies’ land; then the land shall rest and enjoy its sabbaths. As long as it lies desolate it shall rest – for the time it did not rest on your sabbaths when you dwelt in it.” I realize the words of Leviticus were spoken to Israel concerning their promised land, but I also know that what happened to them was a TYPE and a lesson for all, "upon whom the ends of the world are come" (1Cor. 10:11). 2. "Heaven and earth will pass away" (Mark 13:31, Lk 21:33, Matthew 24:36). 2 Peter 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.” If our atmosphere (the heavens) will literally “pass away” then what happens to all oxygen dependent life? Hebrews 6:7-8 “For the earth . . . If it bears thorn and briers, it is rejected . . . whose end is to be burned.” Deuteronomy 29:23 “The whole land is brimstone, salt, and burning; it is not sown, nor does it bear, nor does any grass grow there, like the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah, and Zeboim, which the LORD overthrew in His anger and His wrath.” This is the curse which the LORD prophesied would come upon the land of Israel, should they forsake the covenant. Those things which happened to Israel are the type (symbolic) of those things which will come upon the whole of mankind (1Cor. 10:11). “Therefore the curse has devoured the earth, And those who dwell in it are desolate. Therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, And few men are left” (Isaiah 24:6). NOTE: The “few men” who “are left” will be the redeemed, who are removed from this earth before it is consumed by the last plagues. Zephaniah 1:14-18 “. . . On the day of the Lord’s wrath; And all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.” NAS 3. It will be LIKE the days of Noah. Noah's flood was worldwide. Genesis 6:13 “And God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’” Luke 17:26-30 “And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: . . . the flood came and destroyed them all. Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: . . . on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.” In Noah’s day, the flood destroyed every human being who remained outside of the ark. On the day that Lot was led out of Sodom, the fire destroyed every living thing left inside the city. “Even so,” means “just like that.” The last plagues will destroy all life on planet earth. Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: The last plagues will destroy all life on planet earth. I totally understand your logic, Rachel. It "almost" makes as much sense as my own. I've known you long enough to never tell you you're wrong - because you are usually right. I just happen to believe differently on this issue at this point in time. Over the years, both your and my theology has changed considerably - "evolved" one might say. It will likely continue to evolve. I know this is off-topic; but we were discussing the signs in the stars a while back - particularly as they relate to the woman in Rev. 12. This link might interest you. Not saying I agree with it; but I respect JR quite a bit ... https://joelstrumpet.com/underground-episode-65-false-sign-september-23-2017/ Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 4 minutes ago, JoeMo said: That's not quite accurate Rachel. I currently believe that Israel has ALREADY returned to the land - about 70 years ago. I believe that: 1. God would return secular Israel to their homeland. 2. Secular Israel would once again (or continue to) reject Yahweh and Yeshua. 3. God would punish Israel by bringing the surrounding nations against them; but this time Israel would be on the verge of bitter defeat and destruction. 4. Jesus would return and destroy Israel's enemies; and demonstrate that He whom they had pierced is indeed the prophesied Messiah. Rather than quote the entire chapter, You can (and probably have) read it for yourself. There are plenty of other OT scriptures to back up old Jer's story. You are correct that the big difference between our views is that I DO believe people - especially people living far away from the Middle East - will survive the second coming; and they are the ones who come to Jerusalem bearing gifts to restore the temple. And I believe THAT "return" - the one that happened 70 years ago - is a COUNTERFEIT return, engineered by Satan to deceive - to prepare for his end time scenario, and the appearance of a COUNTERFEIT Messiah, who will "deceive if possible, the very elect". The majority of Jews who "returned", came from Russia and were socialist/communist. They did not even believe in Yahweh. To believe that "return" was brought about by the LORD, I would have to believe that God blesses people who deny even His existence. Joe, what happens to those Jews who denied Yahweh and Yeshua right up til He suddenly appears to rescue them? Will then suddenly convert - and be "saved"? Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, JoeMo said: I totally understand your logic, Rachel. It "almost" makes as much sense as my own. I've known you long enough to never tell you you're wrong - because you are usually right. I just happen to believe differently on this issue at this point in time. Over the years, both your and my theology has changed considerably - "evolved" one might say. It will likely continue to evolve. I know this is off-topic; but we were discussing the signs in the stars a while back - particularly as they relate to the woman in Rev. 12. This link might interest you. Not saying I agree with it; but I respect JR quite a bit ... https://joelstrumpet.com/underground-episode-65-false-sign-september-23-2017/ And I understand your logic. I have read several of the books you recommended on the topic. I had already read a couple of them. I keep praying about this. I certainly do not want to be teaching something false. At this point, I believe the "weight of the evidence" is on the side of complete destruction of the earth (meaning the whole planet). You believe "the earth" in these prophecies of complete destruction is just "the land" promised to Abraham - NOT the entire world. Isaiah 13:13 “Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth will move out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts and in the day of His fierce anger.” How does God "move out of her place" only "the land" area promised to Abraham's seed? On the other hand, it can easily be imagined that a large asteroid hit, could knock the earth out of it's orbit and leave it cold and stranded, farther from the sun, and without it's oxygen rich atmosphere, OR knock it closer to the sun to be "burned". The plagues will come to all those who worship the Beast. The Beast has authority over "EVERY nation, kindred, tongue, and people". That's universal - in my opinion. Those who refused to worship the Beast or take his mark, are removed from earth at the 7th trumpet, so the ones LEFT are those who worshiped the Beast. Therefore the last 7 plagues will fall worldwide - on all those who were left alive and not "consumed by the brightness of His coming". (I agree that the 7 trumpets may effect only "the land". I think it will be part of Satan's deception - COUNTERFEIT plagues.) First plague: loathsome sore upon those who worshiped the beast and his image Second plague: every living creature in the sea dies - ergo no food chain. 75% less oxygen because algae in the ocean makes our oxygen. Third plague: all water sources become like blood - no uncontaminated water - worldwide, so the water won't grow crops (most of which were already destroyed during the trumpets) Fourth plague: sun scorches men with fire. Earth may have been knocked closer to the sun. I don't see how anyone could "survive" these plagues. What? With bottled water and prepper food stores, in an underground shelter? They would still need oxygen. Fifth plague: kingdom of the Beast (worldwide) "full of darkness - a darkness that causes pain. (Earth - knocked out of regular orbit - may now be farther from sun and therefore cold and dark) Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: what happens to those Jews who denied Yahweh and Yeshua right up til He suddenly appears to rescue them? Will then suddenly convert - and be "saved"? I believe that COULD be the case; or they could be Jews who - even though they did not initially believe - know scripture well enough to recognize that they made a "mistake" when they denied Jesus and crucified Him. "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn" (Zech. 12:10) Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 58 minutes ago, JoeMo said: I believe that COULD be the case; or they could be Jews who - even though they did not initially believe - know scripture well enough to recognize that they made a "mistake" when they denied Jesus and crucified Him. "And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn" (Zech. 12:10) I think you might rather emphasize "the spirit of grace and of supplications" (which is poured upon them) rather than the "mourning". There will be "weeping" along with gnashing of teeth (a sign of anger) on the day of judgment, but that weeping won't do them any good. QUESTION: How will Satan deceive "the very elect" (Israel) in the last days - in your scenario. Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 6, 2017 Posted June 6, 2017 2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said: QUESTION: How will Satan deceive "the very elect" (Israel) in the last days - in your scenario. Satan deceives the world - those who wonder after the beast. He can't deceive the elect. "For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." (Matt. 24:24) "For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. (Mark 13:22) I infer from these verses that it will not be possible to deceive the elect. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 9 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: 10 hours ago, JoeMo said: That's not quite accurate Rachel. I currently believe that Israel has ALREADY returned to the land - about 70 years ago. I believe that: 1. God would return secular Israel to their homeland. A thought occurred to me that "Israel" has NOT been "returned to the land". Certainly NOT 70 years ago. DNA Hebrews who did not/do not believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah were "broken off because of unbelief" - a long time ago. They remain "broken off" except for individuals who have come to believe in Jesus as Christ. So they are NOT part of true Israel. They are just dry branches. The prophecy does not say "dry branches are returned to the land". It says Israel will be returned to the land. Israel today (those who prevail with God) is composed of those who believe in and draw life from the holy root - Jesus Christ. It is NOT composed of those who deny even the existence of Yahweh. That's 80% of the current geopolitical nation called "Israel". That makes it a COUNTERFEIT for the true Israel - of faith. They should have called their nation Judea. Instead they called it "Israel". To this day, the nation we know today as "Israel", blocks "Christian" media from coming into their country. They do not allow Jews who believe in Jesus Christ to immigrate. In fact - one must RENOUNCE Jesus Christ, in order to immigrate. Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: A thought occurred to me that "Israel" has NOT been "returned to the land". Certainly NOT 70 years ago. DNA Hebrews who did not/do not believe in Jesus Christ as Messiah were "broken off because of unbelief" - a long time ago. They remain "broken off" except for individuals who have come to believe in Jesus as Christ. So they are NOT part of true Israel. They are just dry branches. The prophecy does not say "dry branches are returned to the land". It says Israel will be returned to the land. Secular or not, the fact remains that Israel (admittedly populated by mostly secular unbelieving Jews) was again became a recognized sovereign nation in 1948. There are many passages in the Bible as well as mathematical calculations based on prophetic time that indicate God would reestablish Israel as a nation in 1948 which I have posted previously in other threads. The "broken branches" story in Romans 11 states: "Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious."(Romans 11:11) " if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!" (Rom 11:23-24) " As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable." (Rom. 11:28-29) As stated in Zech. 30, Israel will be gathered, will be punished severely for their unbelief by God through the surrounding nations to the point of extinction before Jesus returns to save them and destroy their enemies. God doesn't do this because they "deserve" saving. He does it to honor the unconditional promises He made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Christians have NOT replaced Israel as God's chosen people; they have simply been added in. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 28 minutes ago, JoeMo said: Christians have NOT replaced Israel as God's chosen people; they have simply been added in. Paul wrote: "all Israel will be saved". Those words cannot possibly be true, IF "Israel" consists of all DNA descendants of the man Jacob. Paul might better have written "all the remnant of Israel will be saved". The remnant is the portion that remains. Jesus marries the NEW Jerusalem. Those who are betrothed to Jesus by the NEW marriage Covenant, are citizens of the NEW Jerusalem. The Sinai (marriage) Covenant was rendered "obsolete" when the husband of that marriage died. If one does not believe in Jesus as God's son, and Messiah, then he is not betrothed to Jesus. Those who have NOT come to believe in Jesus, are NOT part of the NEW marriage Covenant. They may be Children of Jacob, but they are NOT "Israel". They CAN come to believe in Jesus, and IF they do, then they will be "grafted in again". If you want to call that "replacement theology" - maybe it is. The New marriage Covenant HAS replaced the Sinai marriage Covenant. OF course, Jesus wants to save as many Jews as He possibly can. He loves them. But I don't believe He loves them MORE than other peoples. Paul was just making the point that God did not completely condemn and cut off forever all Hebrews. They can still be saved, but only IF they come to believe in Jesus. I think it possible that many NT era Jews, who knew only the theology they were taught by their elders, will be resurrected at the 8th day. At that time, they will have the opportunity to choose Christ. They grew up essentially ignorant of Christ, because they heard His name used only as a swear word. The problem - as I see it - with much of the prophetic interpretation coming out recently, is that every reference to "Israel" is applied to DNA descendants of Jacob, without stopping to figure out whether the passage is speaking about redeemed New Covenant Israel, or Sinai Covenant Israel (still mired in their blindness). DNA Hebrews DID "return to the land", but I don't believe they were returned there by The LORD. I believe they were returned there, as part of Satan's plan to deceive the world into worship of a COUNTERFEIT Christ. Satan must make it appear that prophecy has been fulfilled. Christians from all over the world, are supporting this present day remnant of The Children of Jacob, because they want Christ to return. They believe that fulfilling the prophecies about "Israel" will hasten the return of Jesus. And it will - but not for the reason they think. Quote 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 I think Jackson has dropped out of this thread. Oh well. Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 7, 2017 Posted June 7, 2017 3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: Paul wrote: "all Israel will be saved" IMO Paul meant "all Israel" that remains at the 2nd Coming will be saved. It means the "remnant" 3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: Sinai (marriage) Covenant was rendered "obsolete" True; but the Abrahamic Covenant was NOT rendered obsolete. It pretty much says that in Rom. 11:28-29. 3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: Those who have NOT come to believe in Jesus, are NOT part of the NEW marriage Covenant. They may be Children of Jacob, but they are NOT "Israel I agree. 3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: I don't believe He loves them MORE than other peoples. I agree; but Israel IS God's Chosen People. They must hold a special position among humanity. 3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: The problem - as I see it - with much of the prophetic interpretation coming out recently, is that every reference to "Israel" is applied to DNA descendants of Jacob, That is indeed a problem. I believe spiritual Israel will consist of DNA descendants of Jacob that have accepted Christ PLUS Gentiles who have accepted Christ. It doesn't matter what your DNA is if you are not a believer. 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 On 6/7/2017 at 3:20 PM, JoeMo said: True; but the Abrahamic Covenant was NOT rendered obsolete. It pretty much says that in Rom. 11:28-29. The Abrahamic Covenant concerned a promise to "Abraham's seed" (singular). Only those who are counted as belonging to THAT SEED, are blessed, and will inherit the promise of that Covenant. Galatians 3:29 “If you are Christ’s then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.” Abraham had sons (seed) by Hagar, Sarah, and Keturah - 8 sons in all. Every one went on to father many, many descendants. Yet the New Testament only recognizes one “Seed” - Jesus Christ. If you belong to Him, then you are counted as “seed” of Abraham. You are counted as citizens of the New Jerusalem. You counted as an Israelite by faith. Within the current nation which calls itself "Israel" there ARE a tiny number of individuals who "are Christ's" by faith. They constitute the "remnant". Romans 11:5 "So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.” (NRS) Romans 9:6 “For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” (NIV). I do believe there will be devout Jews, as well as many secular Jews, will come to believe in Jesus as Messiah, before the end of this age. But after Jesus returns, the only "mourning" will be that which takes place when they realize they are "cut off". If they wait until Jesus actually appears in glory, they will not need the "spirit" to convince them. They will see Him. The word "elect" in the NT, means "chosen". The "elect of God" means the same as "the chosen people of God. And within "the elect" there is no distinction made based upon RACE. Colossians 3:11 “where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all. 12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;” The nation made up of DNA-descendants of Jacob WERE "the chosen people", but in the NT those of faith are "the elect". Yes - many are of Hebrew descent, but they are not granted special status because of their race. JoeMo 1 Quote 8thdaypriest
JoeMo Posted June 10, 2017 Posted June 10, 2017 I pretty much agree with everything you said. Somehow we're talking past each other. If I was picky, the only thing I might change is that the singular seed that you speak of started before Jesus. Isaac - not any of Abraham's children - was the sole seed that inherited of the promise of God. Jacob - not any of Isaac's other children - was the sole seed that inherited the promise of God. Judah was the sole seed of Jacob through whose line the Savior would come. Generations later, David would be the sole seed through which the Savior would come. Thank God that though Jesus, that sole seed has been distributed among all who believe - Jew and Gentile alike. But we must understand that Christians did not replace Israel as God's chosen people, we were added to Israel. Also, I'm not quite sure that all those who mourn will be cut off. Mourning could also be a part of genuine repentance. Quote
8thdaypriest Posted June 11, 2017 Posted June 11, 2017 21 hours ago, JoeMo said: I pretty much agree with everything you said. Somehow we're talking past each other. If I was picky, the only thing I might change is that the singular seed that you speak of started before Jesus. Isaac - not any of Abraham's children - was the sole seed that inherited of the promise of God. Jacob - not any of Isaac's other children - was the sole seed that inherited the promise of God. Judah was the sole seed of Jacob through whose line the Savior would come. Generations later, David would be the sole seed through which the Savior would come. Thank God that though Jesus, that sole seed has been distributed among all who believe - Jew and Gentile alike. But we must understand that Christians did not replace Israel as God's chosen people, we were added to Israel. Also, I'm not quite sure that all those who mourn will be cut off. Mourning could also be a part of genuine repentance. When God "chose" Isaac, was it not because of his faith? He willingly submitted to sacrificial death. Was Jacob not "chosen" because of his faith? The "birthright" he sought was not for the "double portion" but rather for "the priesthood" of the firstborn. He sought closeness with God - not money. Esau treated that inheritance with contempt. Jacob knew that Esau would not make a good manager, or caregiver for the family. God saw the future faith of these men, before they were born, and termed them "chosen", just as He saw Jeremiah, and John the Baptist. Joe, Would you grant that Satan may be using those who term themselves "Israel" ? Are they not vulnerable to being used of Satan - because they are not especially protected by Christ? He cannot protect those who knowingly mock and reject Him (and bar Christian materials from entering the country, and bar immigration of individuals unless they renounce Jesus as Messiah). We know from prophecy, that "Israel" will be central in the very last days. Is it not possible that Satan could use "Israel" (in name only), to deceive the whole world, into worship of the Antichrist, through their misunderstanding of just who really are Israel? I personally believe the capitol of "Israel" (in name only) IS "the great harlot" of Revelation Cpt 17, just as the NEW Jerusalem is the "bride of Christ". This "great harlot" rides on "the Beast". One of her names IS "Babylon the Great". Other names are "Sodom and Egypt" (Rev. 11:8) ["where also our Lord was crucified"]. The "ten horns" completely destroy her and "burn her with fire". The "two witnesses" testify in her streets for 1260 days, before they are killed. When the angel cries, "come out of her my people" - could He not be calling those who are Christ's, to come out from "Israel" (in name only) - to declare themselves Christ's ? Quote 8thdaypriest
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