Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[Samie]

6 hours ago, jackson said:

Only those who endure to the end shall be saved.

shall be saved - Future Tense of Salvation. 

Endure to the end.  That's overcoming evil with good. Otherwise your name gets blotted out from the book of life.

[JoeMo]

17 hours ago, Samie said:

When Christ died, NO ONE was yet what you Rachel calls a "believer".  Therefore, your position that only believers were fashioned into His Body does not and cannot apply.

Wrong.  Before Christ was even born, those who put their faith in Yahweh, the LORD, were saved. God is transcendent of time.  Jesus was the express image of the Father (Heb. 1:1-3).  Jesus and the Father are One (John 10:30) IMO, The divine being whom the Hebrews encountered in the wilderness was the being who became Jesus. (1Cor. 10:4)  God gave 662 commandments to the Hebrews; but in general, the sin that God really hated was idolatry.  From the time they left Egypt until the Babylonian captivity, Israel's hardest times came when they turned from God to idols.  Those who were faithful (full of faith) for God back then were putting their faith in Christ, even though they may not have known He was Christ at the time.  So - YES; their were believers before Christ died.  There were also many who believed Jesus to be the Son of God; and many who worshiped Him prior to His death.  The gospel of John is full of examples.

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Samie said:

When Christ died, NO ONE was yet what you Rachel calls a "believer".  Therefore, your position that only believers were fashioned into His Body does not and cannot apply.

In Jesus' last prayer, He prayed for those who would believe through the teaching of the disciples.  That means Jesus understood that He would carry their sin also - though they themselves, had not yet believed in Him, or confessed their sins  (John 17:20). 

Also in this prayer to His Father, Jesus specifically said, "I DO NOT PRAY for the world" (Jn 17:9).

This fits will with Hebrews 7:25.  "Therefore He is also able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them."

[8thdaypriest]

7 hours ago, Samie said:

Then you believe you are not yet saved, jackson?  I have good news for you.  God already saved you by his grace!!!

KJV 2 Timothy 1:8-10   8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;  9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,  10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

My Strong's concordance gives the tense.  For instance the word "sealed".  In the English the verses appear to say that we are "sealed" by the LORD through the gift of the spirit.  But if you look at the tense, it is the Greek aorist tense.  That's a tense not used in the English.  It means a process has begun which will end in the perfect tense, unless stopped in some way.  So believers are really "sealing to be sealed".  Only when you get to Revelation 7, describing those who will stand on the day of the LORD, do we find the perfect tense.  The 144,000 are described as "sealed" (perfect tense). 

It's the same with the word "saved".  It is more accurate to say we are "being saved" and will be "saved" (perfect tense).  Believers have begun the process, which will end in the perfect tense of "saved".

In the verse sited - 2Timothy 1:8-10, the word "saved" is in the aorist tense.   We are actually saving to be saved.  We have begun the process.

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, Samie said:

Then you believe you are not yet saved, jackson?  I have good news for you.  God already saved you by his grace!!!

I don't believe jackson said he didn't believe he was saved.  He said there is no such thing as "past" salvation.  I agree that I wasn't "saved" in the past.  The opportunity to be saved was presented to me, contingent upon my CHOICE to believe in Christ.  That being said, I am confident in my salvation as long as I keep believing it is God who saved me through Jesus Christ. I am also confident that I could very well lose that salvation if I permanently turn my back on Jesus, no matter how much I "overcome evil with good", whatever that means.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

Wrong.  Before Christ was even born, those who put their faith in Yahweh, the LORD, were saved. God is transcendent of time.  Jesus was the express image of the Father (Heb. 1:1-3).  Jesus and the Father are One (John 10:30) IMO, The divine being whom the Hebrews encountered in the wilderness was the being who became Jesus. (1Cor. 10:4)  God gave 662 commandments to the Hebrews; but in general, the sin that God really hated was idolatry.  From the time they left Egypt until the Babylonian captivity, Israel's hardest times came when they turned from God to idols.  Those who were faithful (full of faith) for God back then were putting their faith in Christ, even though they may not have known He was Christ at the time.  So - YES; their were believers before Christ died.  There were also many who believed Jesus to be the Son of God; and many who worshiped Him prior to His death.  The gospel of John is full of examples.

So, who are the ALL that died when Jesus died and were made alive TOGETHER WITH Him when He resurrected?

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

NAS Colossians 2:13-14   13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

[Samie]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In the verse sited - 2Timothy 1:8-10, the word "saved" is in the aorist tense.   We are actually saving to be saved.  We have begun the process.

So how is it that Scripture says God has already saved us yet you said not yet? Can you explain how would have you began the process BEFORE the foundation of the world as Scripture says?

KJV 2 Timothy 1:8-10   8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;  9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,  10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

 

[Samie]

1 hour ago, JoeMo said:

I don't believe jackson said he didn't believe he was saved.  He said there is no such thing as "past" salvation.  I agree that I wasn't "saved" in the past.  

So this verse is untruth to you?

KJV 2 Timothy 1:8-10   8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;  9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,  10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

[JoeMo]

21 minutes ago, Samie said:

So this verse is untruth to you?

No it's very true.  Jesus did indeed give us salvation before the world began.  It's mine for the taking if I CHOOSE to take it.  Some people might CHOOSE to reject it, weird as that may be.  Some people might think they're good enough; and they don't need a Savior to get into the Kingdom, weird as that may be.  Some people might think that they were born saved, weird as that may be.

Question, Samie - how many people buy your "theory"?  Do you have a bunch of supporters here at CA?

For the record, I don't think you are off base everywhere.  We are on the same page as far as the timing and chronology of eschatology.

[Samie]

4 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

In the verse sited - 2Timothy 1:8-10, the word "saved" is in the aorist tense.   We are actually saving to be saved.  We have begun the process.

The verbs "crucified " and "divided " in this verse are also in the aorist tense in Greek:

NIV Matthew 27:35 When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

So using Rachel's logic, when they had crucified Jesus, they have not really crucified Him.

NKJ Matthew 2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem,

born and came are also in the aorist tense. 

I have yet to see a verb in the past tense in English Bibles that is not in the aorist tense in Greek Bibles.

Funny, the Bible says God has saved us yet a trio says God has not.

Looks like the quartette less one is singing a verse out of tune with the Bible again.

[Samie]

1 minute ago, JoeMo said:

No it's very true.

So, why don't you believe it? It says God has saved you by His grace before the foundation of the world?

[Samie]

3 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Jesus did indeed give us salvation before the world began.

The verse says differently: God saved us by His grace before the foundation of the world.

[Samie]

5 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

It's mine for the taking if I CHOOSE to take it.

So where will you get the POWER to do the act of CHOOSING when you are not yet PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER?

[Samie]

6 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Question, Samie - how many people buy your "theory"?

Sorry, brother, it's not for sale.

[Samie]

7 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Do you have a bunch of supporters here at CA?

None, maybe.  Is that your basis to determine what is truth?

[Samie]

And lest you forget, JoeMo, you have yet to answer this, if you feel like answering:

55 minutes ago, Samie said:

So, who are the ALL that died when Jesus died and were made alive TOGETHER WITH Him when He resurrected?

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

NAS Colossians 2:13-14   13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

But if it's too difficult for you, then just forget it.

[8thdaypriest]

2 hours ago, Samie said:

So, who are the ALL that died when Jesus died and were made alive TOGETHER WITH Him when He resurrected?

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:14-15   For the love of Christ compels us, because we judge thus: that if One died for all, then all died;  and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again.

NAS Colossians 2:13-14   13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

2Cor. 5:14-15:  "those who live" are those who have been "born again" by baptism and by the spirit.  The verse does NOT SAY that "all" now live.  Only those "born again" - "of water (baptism) and of the spirit" - "live again".   The rest remain DEAD in their transgressions.

Colossians 2:13-14  Paul is writing TO believers at Collose.  He is NOT WRITING to all of mankind.  Those believers were once DEAD in transgressions, but now are "alive" - through "water and the spirit" by believing.  Where the verse says "together with Him" - that does not necessarily convey that both events (Christ made alive and believers made alive) happened at the SAME TIME. 

These verses are not proof texts.  They are open to interpretation, and the meaning changes - depending for interpretation, upon ones view. 

[Samie]

Rachel, JoeMo & jackson believe that Jesus is the ONLY Source of POWER for doing good.  And unless PLUGGED IN to Him, man has no power to do good.

But it amazes me how they continue on insisting that people NOT yet PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER, already have the power to do the good act of believing so that they can get PLUGGED IN to Christ.

And what amazes me even more is their tenacity in not seeing the senselessness of their position.

[8thdaypriest]

1 hour ago, Samie said:

And lest you forget, JoeMo, you have yet to answer this, if you feel like answering:

But if it's too difficult for you, then just forget it.

I just ANSWERED Samie.

[Samie]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

I just ANSWERED Samie.

Maybe too difficult for JoeMo, you answered for him?  But let's see your answer.

[Samie]

3 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

2Cor. 5:14-15:  "those who live" are those who have been "born again" by baptism and by the spirit.  The verse does NOT SAY that "all" now live.  Only those "born again" - "of water (baptism) and of the spirit" - "live again".   The rest remain DEAD in their transgressions.

Colossians 2:13-14  Paul is writing TO believers at Collose.  He is NOT WRITING to all of mankind.  Those believers were once DEAD in transgressions, but now are "alive" - through "water and the spirit" by believing.  Where the verse says "together with Him" - that does not necessarily convey that both events (Christ made alive and believers made alive) happened at the SAME TIME. 

These verses are not proof texts.  They are open to interpretation, and the meaning changes - depending for interpretation, upon ones view. 

Basically, you are saying the ALL in 2 Cor 5: 14-15 for whom Christ died and who died when He died are "those who have been "born again" by baptism and by the spirit."

So, a few seconds BEFORE you were baptized, were you among the ALL?

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, Samie said:

Rachel, JoeMo & jackson believe that Jesus is the ONLY Source of POWER for doing good.  And unless PLUGGED IN to Him, man has no power to do good.

But it amazes me how they continue on insisting that people NOT yet PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of POWER, already have the power to do the good act of believing so that they can get PLUGGED IN to Christ.

And what amazes me even more is their tenacity in not seeing the senselessness of their position.

 

We are to give "thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Eph 5:20 NKJ).  Hence God our Father IS "the power source".  Jesus is the conduit for that power.

 

Rachel, JoeMo & Jackson ALSO believe that Jesus Christ IS the only source of power for doing good.  They also believe the Power can act upon a person's mind from the OUTSIDE - drawing, knocking, pleading.  The person can respond to the drawing Power.  We HAVE that ability to respond.  It is built in to us.   We also have the ability to RESIST.  We have said this over and over and over. 

The power is the same.  The source is the same.  

Because a "measure of faith" is GIVEN to "everyone" - does NOT MEAN that everyone is "in Christ" or abides "in Christ". 

Paul clearly stated that we are "baptized INTO His death" and "baptized into Christ".  Before that baptism, the person is NOT "in Christ" and has not "died" with Christ. 

 Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

 Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal 3:27 NKJ)

 

 

[Samie]

2 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Rachel, JoeMo & Jackson ALSO believe that Jesus Christ IS the only source of power for doing good.  They also believe the Power can act upon a person's mind from the OUTSIDE - drawing, knocking, pleading.  The person can respond to the drawing Power.  We HAVE that ability to respond.  It is built in to us.   We also have the ability to RESIST.  We have said this over and over and over. 

So how can one have the power to RESPOND when NOT PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of Power?

[Samie]

Thus far in this new dialogue, two questions are up for answering by Rachel:

1. 

20 minutes ago, Samie said:

Basically, you are saying the ALL in 2 Cor 5: 14-15 for whom Christ died and who died when He died are "those who have been "born again" by baptism and by the spirit."

So, a few seconds BEFORE you were baptized, were you among the ALL?

2.

1 minute ago, Samie said:

So how can one have the power to RESPOND when NOT PLUGGED IN to the ONLY Source of Power?

 

[8thdaypriest]

17 minutes ago, Samie said:

Basically, you are saying the ALL in 2 Cor 5: 14-15 for whom Christ died and who died when He died are "those who have been "born again" by baptism and by the spirit."

So, a few seconds BEFORE you were baptized, were you among the ALL?

God "calls those things which are not, as though they are".  God foresaw the redeemed - those who would be "born again" - who would "overcome" . 

The death of Christ "once for all" covered "all" who would ultimately come to Him.  It did NOT cover those who would ultimately refuse Him.  Because - if it did - then God cannot refuse eternal life, for anyone. 

We've already addressed the "died with Him".  It means died LIKE Him - died to the selfish desires of the carnal man.  It doesn't mean that they died literally at the same moment in time.  

And by the way, concerning the "one body", "we were all baptized into one body" (1Co 12:13 NAU).  We become part of the body of Christ - BY baptism.  We were NOT physically born already IN that "body".  The "body" consists of those who have been "baptized".