Christ’s Ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary # 24

[JoeMo]

Regardless of which death Christ died, what day He died on, and where He went (if anywhere) during His rest in the tomb, the important parts of the story remain the same - Christ lived, He was brutally executed, He was buried, and now He lives again.  His resurrection is one of the salvational and foundational doctrines of Christianity, as indicated in 1 Corinthians 15 (one of the earliest known manuscripts of the NT):

" For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,  that he was buried,that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,  and that he appeared to Cephas [Peter], and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.  Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles,  and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born." (1 Cor: 15:3-8).

"But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?  If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith." (1 Cor. 15: 12-14)

Christ's resurrection - more than anything else He did - proved that He was indeed God.  Paul challenges the Corinthians to talk to some of those who had witnessed the risen Christ - a fact many of these witnesses died for rather than recant.  Not even in Jewish literature from that period do the Jews even deny the empty tomb.

[8thdaypriest]

16 hours ago, jackson said:

Rachel said:I have read every one of those verses you typed out for us.   And yes - I believe that Jesus Christ will judge each and every human being.  "All judgment is committed to the Son"  (John 5:22).

And you still believe the Judgment is primarily about God?

Maybe we can say that "the great controversy" is ABOUT GOD.  Each created being within the universe of God, must judge for himself/herself whether to trust God or to rebel against Him. 

Jackson,  I see more than one phase of judgment.  

There IS a judgment OF CHRIST before Jesus then comes to earth (as King) to execute HIS judgment upon human beings.  Christ is judged first, and then Christ executes His judgment of mankind. 

The "son of man" goes before the heavenly "court".  He is judged worthy to receive dominion, and power, and a kingdom.  THEN - following this judgment OF CHRIST, He then comes to earth in person, in glory, to EXECUTE JUDGMENT. 

Daniel 7:10- A fiery stream issued And came forth from before Him. A thousand thousands ministered to Him; Ten thousand times ten thousand stood before Him. The court was seated, And the books were opened.  . . . "I was watching in the night visions, And behold, One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, And they brought Him near before Him.  Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, That all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, Which shall not pass away, And His kingdom the one Which shall not be destroyed."

This judgment OF Christ, fulfills the Day of Atonement types.  He is our High Priest.  All those who belong to Christ, are judged in the person of Christ, just as all of Israel was judged in the person of the High Priest on the Day of Atonement.  Those Israelites who failed to honor Yahweh and humble their hearts towards Him before that DAY, and on that DAY, were "cut off" from Israel.

NOTE:  ONLY Israel will be saved.  Those who believe in Jesus, are "grafted in" to Israel.  They become Israelites - by faith.  DNA Hebrews who refuse to believe in Jesus are "broken off" from Israel "because of unbelief".   

If the Fall types are fulfilled "in like manner" (quote from EGW) with the Spring types, then the fulfillment of the DAY of Atonement prophecy will take place within ONE 24 hour DAY - just as it did in the ancient Tabernacle.   The Spring types were fulfilled day for day, and even hour for hour.

In the TYPE, the High Priest entered the MHP and exited the MHP on the SAME DAY.  To say Jesus entered the MHP back in 1844, and is still in there - just doesn't fit.

The problem with Adventist interpretation, is that Jesus does not need any time to figure out which sheep belong to Him.  Certainly not 175 years and counting.  I absolutely DO NOT BELIEVE that a pre-advent "investigative judgment" began back in 1844.  I do believe there will be a pre-Advent judgment OF CHRIST, but pre-Advent only by hours - not 175+ years.

Jesus said, "I know My sheep."  . . . "just as the Father knows me and I know the Father" (John 10:14-15). 

John 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."

The Adventist pioneers were just wrong about the date.  There were not wrong in their belief that the ancient Day of Atonement was a prophecy pointing to the final judgment day for this age.  They originally thought it was the day that Jesus would come to execute judgment.  They should have stuck with that, because that was correct.  Even when they later figured out that the Day of Atonement was the DAY that our High Priest - would enter the Most Holy Place of Heaven itself, that also WAS CORRECT.  The mistake was in taking William Miller's date - October 22nd, 1844 - and saying that WAS the Day when our High Priest entered the MHP.  That just doesn't FIT the TYPE. 

[8thdaypriest]

Jesus now has the right to judge, and to execute judgment upon - human beings.  1.  He created them  2.  He recovered the dominion of earth, that Adam lost to Satan  (He did this when He fulfilled the one requirement for dominion - perfect obedience of God His Father).  

Jesus said:  "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life." (Joh 5:24 NKJ)

Those of us who believe in the Father who sent Jesus, and hear Jesus' word, "come into judgment" in the person of Christ.  We do not "stand before Him" in person, to be judged, as will those who have disdained His representation.

I realize, Jesus speaks of what will be, as if it IS.   He said, "all judgment is committed to the Son".  When He spoke those words, He had NOT YET passed the final test.  We read His words as the "sure word of prophecy".

The time period during which I will be judged by Christ, I would think began when I reached adulthood, and continued through my life - ending at my death.  Because it's a relationship.  It is the quality of the total/overall relationship that Christ will judge - not just my attitude on a certain day.  My attitude on "that day" is the result of a lifetime of experience shared, walking with HIM.  One cannot simply screw up His attitude for one day, and think to please Christ.

[JoeMo]

On 5/27/2017 at 6:22 PM, jackson said:

The gospel is not a peace and safety message. It includes warnings and threatenings for our admonition.

That doesn't really sound like good news to me.  Threats and warnings are for those who refuse to accept the gospel.  The good news is summarized best in John 3:16-17.  Those who reject the good news by default become victims of the bad news .  Paul says it is the kindness of the Lord that draws us to salvation - not abject fear of repercussions.

[8thdaypriest]

Jackson,  I really just wanted to understand for myself, whether Jesus' death substituted (death for death) for mankind.  I have answered that question - at least for myself.  I do NOT BELIEVE that His death was substitutionary in nature.  I believe that His torment was His greatest TEST - of whether He would remain obedient to God His Father.  He did.  He passed the TEST, therefore He fulfilled the condition for DOMNION of earth, and in fact all things that He created.  That condition was perfect obedience.  With dominion comes the right to judge.

The 70 weeks and 2300 evening/mornings have been discussed in other threads. 

I personally believe that Old Jerusalem will be destroyed by an Islamic bomb, and then "the nations" will vote to "restore and rebuild Jerusalem".  That "command" will begin the LAST 70 weeks.  The 2300 evening/ mornings will be 1150 literal days that will fit within the 70 literal weeks, ending at the final Day of Atonement.  Satan. working through the beast "from the land", will "take away the daily" and "place the abomination that causes abomination".

I think I've explained my beliefs concerning those prophetic periods, in other threads. 

For the present, I believe that Jesus is making "intercession" on behalf of those who believe in Him, and for those who will come to believe in Him.  The nature of that "intercession" is another topic.

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, jackson said:

 In like manner does not mean in exact manner. If it did, then the fulfillment of the  Feast of Trumpets and the Day of Atonement should have occurred in the year of Christ’s death, as did the springtime feasts.

Yes - Jesus was judged by His Father as "perfect" and His sacrifice "perfect".  He was judged worthy to become High Priest for Israel.  But dominion is not given to Him until the last day of this age.  That is when He will be crowned as King of Kings, and will begin to "reign", and to execute His judgment.

 The Spring TYPES represented the beginning of Christ's ministry for us in the Heavenly Sanctuary, and the Fall TYPEs represent the last events in that ministry - for this age. 

Jesus was appointed a priest "forever".  That means Jesus will never stop being High Priest of Israel.  He will be a priest LIKE Melchizedek - who was both king and priest on the earth. 

[8thdaypriest]

10 hours ago, jackson said:

But earlier you said the judgment was about Jesus being worthy to be given dominion. Now you are acknowledging that he was judged worthy at His ascension. The judgment is not about Jesus at all. It is primarily about us and who will be part of His dominion. Jesus is not on trial. We are. He is not on probation. We are. The fact that Jesus will be the husband of the New Jerusalem, and King of Kings and Lord of Lords is not contingent on His books being opened in the judgment to see if He is worthy. It is you ,I and everyone who has ever lived whose books will be opened.

 

 

I think I said that "the judgment" occurs in 2 phases.  Let me correct that.  This is an outline of my belief. 

First:  [At the beginning] the judgment OF Christ (at His ascension) , which said He was perfect and fully "worthy"  

Second:  Christ's judgment concerning mankind.  Christ enters names of those for everlasting life, in HIS Book of Life.  Just as the priest transferred to the Tabernacle, a record (the blood) of confession and the desire for atonement with God, for those who came with a sin offering.

Third:  [At the end] The "court" sits to JUDGE Satan.  His dominion is "taken from Him" and given to Christ.  Christ is crowned King of Kings.

This judgment OF SATAN, includes all those who have sided with Satan, and therefore do not belong to Christ.  Those who belong to Satan, are JUDGED in the person of Satan, just as those who belong to Christ are judged in the person of Christ.  One is judged as belonging to either Christ or Satan.  Christ claims you as one of His own, and if Christ does not claim you, then you belong to Satan.

NOTE:  One can belong to Christ and later be "cut off". 

Fourth:  Christ's execution of His judgment, (at His glorious coming) upon those who resisted Him and sided with Satan.  All who sided with Satan are resurrected to hear judgment pronounced against them.  They are left behind, as He removes His people from the earth for a thousand years.   The 7 last plagues are "poured out" on this day.  "Therefore let her plagues come in one day."  The 7 last plagues BEGIN on the day that Christ returns.  The terminally rebellious die either in the "fire of God" or in the last plagues.  (It is not clear exactly how each wicked person dies.) The earth is left desolate.  Satan and his angels are confined to the "uninhabited place". 

1000 years later:  Redeemed Israel is returned to the land. 

THEN:  There is a great world-wide resurrection of "the rest of the dead" (who constitute all of those who could not CHOOSE either Satan or Christ during their lives in the first age, due to immaturity or to lack of information).   These people were claimed by Christ as belonging to Him, because the High Priest confessed sins committed in ignorance over the morning and evening sacrifice.  The moed WAS a sin offering.  That is why these people can be resurrected at the 8th millennium, and continue their lives.  These people are taught by the redeemed (who have now been made "priests of God and of Christ").  They CHOOSE to follow either Satan or Christ. 

Those who CHOOSE Satan, join the Army of Gog.  They are no longer covered by Christ.  The Army of Gog comes into "the land" to attack Jerusalem - seeking to overthrow Christ. 

Fire from God consumes the Army of Gog, along with all the followers of Satan dwelling in other parts of the world. 

This is EXECUTION of judgment by Christ, who now holds dominion.  It is an extension of the judgment upon the followers of Satan.

Satan is thrown into "the lake of fire" when the fire from Heaven comes down, during the Battle of Gog/Magog.

Fifth:  The final Great White Throne Judgment

The TEXT puts the Great White Throne Judgment AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle.

At this point - all of those who CHOSE Satan ARE DEAD - physically DEAD.

I believe this judgment is FOR the redeemed.  They must agree with God's judgment concerning the "lost".

God retains a "memory" of each person, which would allow Him to resurrect them.  To HIM, they still "live" - even though they are physically dead. 

What should He do with that "memory" - that "spirit" - that download from their minds?  (Remember: at this point Satan and his angels are already in the "lake of fire". )

God cannot resurrect these people.  They would only cause more suffering. 

NOW - the Book of Life is checked one last time.  The "books" with the records of their actions are checked. 

All of the redeemed AGREE.  It is best that God destroy Heaven's "memory" of these people, so they can never be resurrected again.  

Following the final judgment, THE DEAD are thrown into the "lake of fire".  These people ARE DEAD.   There is no mention of another resurrection, AFTER Gog/Magog. 

I realize the Bible says "the dead" are thrown into the lake of fire - the entire Abode of the Dead (Sheol), but God had to put things in a way that people of that age could understand.  Today we would just say that God throws the memory sticks with their data, into "the lake of fire".  People of the 1800s could not understand "downloads"  or "retained memory" either.  So they made the "lake of fire" the same as the fire of Gog/Magog.  I don't believe the two are the same.  One FOLLOWS the other. 

The "second death" is "spirit death", which is a different TYPE of death.  It is different from physical death. 

 

[JoeMo]

Rachel,

  for the most part.  As you already know, I currently believe the millennium will be spent here on earth where we will learn the family business and minister to those left alive on the planet after Armageddon.  I know you don't believe there will be survivors and that is fine.  We will both know what is reality soon enough.  I currently believe that the millennium will be spent in "on the job training" for evangelizing the "rest of the dead" at the end of the millennium.

I have been sharing your 8th day study with others in my church, and it is gaining some traction.

[8thdaypriest]

I believe the rebellious from this age, will be resurrected and judged and executed at the Second Coming.

I believe the rebellious from the 8th millennium, will be executed at the Battle of Gog/Magog.

I see absolutely NO REASON to resurrect any of these people to physical life again.  What?  To be judged AGAIN and then executed AGAIN.  That makes no sense to me.  God is NOT in to physical torture just for payback.  It sends the WRONG MESSAGE. 

And the idea that the redeemed will "meet out" the punishment (torment) to be suffered by the lost at their execution [EGW] is absolutely NOT consistent with the love of God.  I realize the victims of evil tormentors would love to burn them alive, or something equally painful, but in this country we do not use such methods.  Those methods are/were used by the likes of ISIS or the Inquisition. 

Mrs White said that some would be consumed instantly, while others would suffer much longer - in the "fire of God".  

 

[8thdaypriest]

59 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Rachel,

  for the most part.  As you already know, I currently believe the millennium will be spent here on earth where we will learn the family business and minister to those left alive on the planet after Armageddon.  I know you don't believe there will be survivors and that is fine.  We will both know what is reality soon enough.  I currently believe that the millennium will be spent in "on the job training" for evangelizing the "rest of the dead" at the end of the millennium.

I have been sharing your 8th day study with others in my church, and it is gaining some traction.

Joe,

You've said you believe that the redeemed - those who belong to Christ, are REMOVED from this earth - at least for the period of the 7 last plagues. 

Then you believe they will come back to the earth, after the plagues, and live in the land promised to Abraham, with Christ ruling.  Right?

I don't understand who these people would be - the ones who survive the plagues.  

QUESTION:  Do you believe that Jesus will resurrect and judge those who are Satan's at His return?   Do any of those people "survive the last plagues" ? 

The Beast is "given authority over every tribe, tongue, and nation." (Rev. 13:7)

"And ALL who dwell on the earth will worship him [the Beast] whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb". (Rev. 13:8)

And what happens to those who worship the Beast?

Rev. 14:9  "If anyone worships the BEAST and his image, and receives his mark . . .   "he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God . . . he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb". 

Those LIVING to see Christ come:

1. The ones in the Book of Life are REMOVED from the earth (along with those resurrected).  

 

2. Those who worship the Beast are tormented with fire and brimstone, as the earth is "burned up" (along with those resurrected to face judgment because they served Satan during their lives). 

You could argue that "the earth" in 13:8, refers only to "the land" area promised to Abraham, but that ignores the context, which says the Beast controls "every tribe, tongue, and nation". 

Do you think the Beast will require only those people living within "the land" to worship Him?  It's possible, but doubtful IMO, when the context says he has "AUTHORITY OVER every tribe, tongue, and nation". 

"EVERY tribe, tongue, and nation" seems to encompass all of mankind - IMO. 

 

3. "The rest" - the children, who had no opportunity to choose, (I believe) will be instantly consumed by the brightness of His coming.  They will not have to suffer the last "wrath of God".  And they will be resurrected 1000 years later, along with all of those who lived down through the centuries, who died in ignorance. 

So who would be left on the earth, having "survived" the last plagues? 

 

 

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I don't understand who these people would be - the ones who survive the plagues.  

I believe that the Jewish writers of that time viewed the Middle East, the eastern Mediterranean nations,  and North Africa as the "whole world".  They barely knew about Western Europe; and knew nothing about the Americas or Australia.  So when they said "the whole world", they were referencing the parts of the planet they knew about.  Also, some of their writing was exaggerated, as in:

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 1:7).

"How broken and shattered is the hammer of the whole earth! (Jer. 50:23)

"“Flee from Babylon! Run for your lives!  Do not be destroyed because of her sins. It is time for the Lord’s vengeance;    he will repay her what she deserves.  Babylon was a gold cup in the Lord’s hand; she made the whole earth drunk." (Jer. 51:6)

"I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people, who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwellings not their own." (Hab. 1:6)

Soooo ... I believe that the whole Middle East and surrounding area will indeed be destroyed by the 7 last plagues.  Evidently, Jerusalem itself is not completely destroyed; because it is from the holy mountain - Mount Moriah/Zion - the Mount of the Assembly (Har Megaddon in Hebrew - sounds a lot like Armageddon to me) is where the Lord sets foot at the second coming in order to save Jerusalem and its inhabitants from being completely annihilated when the "nations of the earth" (IMHO the surrounding Islamic countries) gather to destroy the Holy City.

I may be wrong; but if I am, I have many learned people on my side - Like Michael Heiser, Tom Horn, Mark Putnam, and Joel Richardson.  This is NOT my original thought.  It is the opinion of many conservative theologians that the Millennium will be on earth.  It's mostly SDA's and JW's that believe otherwise.

I respect your opinion Rachel - I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.  I'm just saying that on this particular point, we see things differently.

[phkrause]

This is an interesting study by Pastor Bohr. It, I believe, goes with this thread! There are other video's that go along with this one, but I have yet watched them.

Stephen Bohr 5 - The hour of God's judgment

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2PYzwjOwMs&t=2466s

ps: sorry but you need to rewind it to the beginning!! Not sure why it starts from the place it's beginning??

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I respect your opinion Rachel - I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.  I'm just saying that on this particular point, we see things differently.

Thanks for explaining Joe. 

Just a quick question:  Do you believe the dominion that Christ won - was only for "the land"?  And was that "land" just the area promised to Abraham's seed?   That would mean of course, that Christ could "judge" only those who live within that "land" - at His coming.  

[8thdaypriest]

5 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I may be wrong; but if I am, I have many learned people on my side - Like Michael Heiser, Tom Horn, Mark Putnam, and Joel Richardson.  This is NOT my original thought.  It is the opinion of many conservative theologians that the Millennium will be on earth.  It's mostly SDA's and JW's that believe otherwise.

I would add, The Church of God 7th Day, and The Universal Church of God International to the list of those who believe the ENTIRE world will be destroyed at the Second Coming. 

[JoeMo]

10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Just a quick question:  Do you believe the dominion that Christ won - was only for "the land"?  And was that "land" just the area promised to Abraham's seed?   That would mean of course, that Christ could "judge" only those who live within that "land" - at His coming

Even though I don't currently believe that everyone left on earth will be killed in the 7 last plagues, The catastrophic events leading up to the second coming ( as well as the second coming itself)  will have profound impacts on the entire planet.  It's possible that the unsaved survivors will envy the dead for the first several decades.  Part of the job of the saved will be to minister to these poor souls all over the world.  While ground zero for Armageddon  (Har Megaddon in Hebrew) is the Middle East, the winner of this final battle will gain dominion over the entire planet (indeed dominion over all of creation) forever.  The "land" will be the center of the universe from which God and His council will rule the universe.

Just my opinion.

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, jackson said:

Rachel's comments in blue:

The wicked dead are not raised at the Second Advet, except for a special resurrection of some who had direct involvment in His rejection and death

This is EGW.  I think she coined the term "special resurrection". 

Daniel 12:2 "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise will shine like the brightness of the heavens, and those who lead many to righteousness, like the stars for ever and ever." (NIV)

The Bible is clear: that the ones that rise in the first resurrection are blessed. The wicked are not judged for their deeds during the judgment. Only those who have confessed Christ are to be judged. It is the virgins of the parable (those professing Christ) who are judged. Some  of the professed "virgins" are shut out in the judgment., but the wicked unbelievers are not even considered for  worthiness of eternal life.

You keep using this expression Jackson - "The Bible is clear".  I realize the passage seems "clean" to you.  But your interpretation is really just that - and SDA interpretation - concerning what the passage MEANS.   

It is the resurrected saints who reign  with Christ who judge the sentence for both the wicked and the evil angels. 1 Cor 6:2-3)

I believe that we - redeemed Israel,  will actually and literally rule with Jesus over "the nations" (resurrected at the 8th millennium).  In SDA escatology, there is no time when that happens.  There is also no answer for how  Jesus will give all those who died in immaturity or ignorance the opportunity to CHOOSE Him as Lord, while rejecting Satan.  

Rev 20:5    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.  
 20:6    Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

After the judgment there is no second chance for anyone.  Many saints who never heard of Jesus or His sacrifice  , but have lived up to all the light they had, will be saved and ask Jesus:

Zech 13:6    And [one] shall say unto him, What [are] these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, [Those] with which I was wounded [in] the house of my friends. 

I am very familiar with SDA interpretation of the passages.  I just wanted to understand what Joe believes concerning those he believes will survive the last plagues. 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

9 hours ago, jackson said:

After the judgment there is no second chance for anyone.  Many saints who never heard of Jesus or His sacrifice  , but have lived up to all the light they had, will be saved and ask Jesus:

 

These could be saints who lived during the OT before Jesus died, who later ask concerning His scars.  They are NOT necessarily ignorant pagans, with NO knowledge of Yahweh.

And it's NOT a "second chance".  It will be the first opportunity for these people - to CHOOSE whom they will serve.  Everyone must CHOOSE Jackson.  If folks can be saved or lost based upon "living up to all the l light they had" as ignorant pagans or little children then why preach the Gospel of Christ.  

I Thessalonians 3:16   [Persecution by Jews and pagans] “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,”

To paraphrase Paul, “If we don’t speak to the Gentiles about Christ, they cannot be saved.”

One must HEAR the truth, to BELIEVE it.   And one must BELIEVE to be SAVED.

[8thdaypriest]

21 hours ago, JoeMo said:

I believe that the Jewish writers of that time viewed the Middle East, the eastern Mediterranean nations,  and North Africa as the "whole world".  They barely knew about Western Europe; and knew nothing about the Americas or Australia.  So when they said "the whole world", they were referencing the parts of the planet they knew about.  Also, some of their writing was exaggerated, as in:

"In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire" (Jude 1:7).

"How broken and shattered is the hammer of the whole earth! (Jer. 50:23)

"“Flee from Babylon! Run for your lives!  Do not be destroyed because of her sins. It is time for the Lord’s vengeance;    he will repay her what she deserves.  Babylon was a gold cup in the Lord’s hand; she made the whole earth drunk." (Jer. 51:6)

"I am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people, who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwellings not their own." (Hab. 1:6)

Soooo ... I believe that the whole Middle East and surrounding area will indeed be destroyed by the 7 last plagues.  Evidently, Jerusalem itself is not completely destroyed; because it is from the holy mountain - Mount Moriah/Zion - the Mount of the Assembly (Har Megaddon in Hebrew - sounds a lot like Armageddon to me) is where the Lord sets foot at the second coming in order to save Jerusalem and its inhabitants from being completely annihilated when the "nations of the earth" (IMHO the surrounding Islamic countries) gather to destroy the Holy City.

I may be wrong; but if I am, I have many learned people on my side - Like Michael Heiser, Tom Horn, Mark Putnam, and Joel Richardson.  This is NOT my original thought.  It is the opinion of many conservative theologians that the Millennium will be on earth.  It's mostly SDA's and JW's that believe otherwise.

I respect your opinion Rachel - I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right.  I'm just saying that on this particular point, we see things differently.

Joe, 

It is my opinion (and just that) that an Islamic "antichrist" WILL come, and will take over the Middle East, and WILL THREATEN JERUSALEM.

But this will be the COUNTERFEIT antichrist - not the REAL antichrist.  Just about every Christian in the Western world can agree that Islam and especially radical Islam, is ANTI Christian (therefore antichrist).  I am suspicious of something that soooo many people can AGREE WITH.  It seems like a set-up. 

When the COUNTERFEIT antichrist, is ousted by a Christ/savior figure, who shows up to save Jerusalem from the evil antichrist - almost ALL of the Western world will believe this Christ figure is the REAL Christ returned.  They will worship him and serve him - especially the world's Christians. 

Before I would worship this Christ/Messiah/Savior figure, I would DEFINITELY need some proof that he really IS Christ.  Certainly - if he just stayed on the earth, and did not remove the saints from the earth - THAT would be a giant clue.  And if he did not resurrect ALL of the saints from their graves - that would also be a clue. 

Leading up to the appearance of this Christ/savior figure, there WILL BE 7 plagues.  I believe they will be COUNTERFEIT PLAGUES.  They are the trumpet judgments of Revelation (NOT the real 7 last plagues). 

Events leading up to the appearance of this Christ/savior figure will appear to fulfill every prophecy of events leading up to Christ's return.   How else could this figure deceive "every nation, kindred, tongue, and people"?

[8thdaypriest]

  

18 hours ago, jackson said:

The wicked dead are not raised at the Second Advent, except for a special resurrection of some who had direct involvment in His rejection and death

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10  “ . . . WHEN the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.  These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, WHEN He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints.”

Sure sounds like the wicked will die "punishment death" on the DAY "when He comes" to deliver His saints.  Doesn't SOUND like only a very small number - those who actually crucified Jesus.

 

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, jackson said:

Rachel,

I said "The Bible is clear: that the ones that rise in the first resurrection are blessed

Rev  20:6    Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power

Are you saying that is not clear? The wicked dead can not be raised when Jesus comes as you claim, for they clearly are not blesse, so are not part of the first resurrction.. 

Rev 20:5    But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.  

Again, the wicked are raised for the Second death occurring 1000 years later They are not blessed, obviously.

The "special resurrection"makes sense because it ties Rev 20:6, Dan 12:2, Rev 1:7, Matt 26:64, 1 Cor 6:2-3, and Rev 22:11 all together without contradiction.

Your special construct of a separate judgment for the young and uninformed is found nowhere is scripture, and cannot reconcile the above verses without contradiction.

One other point. If i use a verse to make a point that is an  Adventist interpretation" , so what? That has no relevance to the truth or falsity of my point. Show me why my point is not Biblical.

OK Jackson.  The theme of this thread has changed so many times, that we may as well pursue another topic.  I do want to really take apart my belief concerning "the rest of the dead".  It will either strengthen my belief, or cause me do more study, or cause me to rethink my belief.  I don't know if I can say the same for you Jackson.  You seem so wedded to SDA doctrine, and EGW, that you don't seem "open" to even consider another line of thought.  

Yes - those raised "first" are "blessed and holy".  The challenge is to identify exactly which was/is "the first resurrection", and to identify who "have part in" that resurrection.  . 

After Jesus was raised from death by His Father, He then resurrected others who had died during the Old Testament period.  (Matthew 27:52-53).    This resurrection came BEFORE the resurrection which has not yet taken place - the one to come at the return of Christ in glory. 

NOTE:  When Revelation refers to the 24 elders, the number is taken from David's division of the priesthood into 24 "courses of elders".  It is possible there are actually more than just 24 resurrected persons, and they take turns serving. 

But I think we must eliminate THAT resurrection for consideration of "first" because the introduction to Revelation, John said "to show His servants things which must shortly take place".  So that puts the "first resurrection" future from John's writing of Revelation. 

Would you agree so far? 

[8thdaypriest]

Revelation 20:4 "And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." (NKJ)

I have heard it argued that only those who did not worship the beast or receive his mark, will become "priests" and become judges.   The "rest" includes everyone else.  I don't agree with this argument, but I thought I'd put it here, since it bears on our subject.  I have my answer to this one, but I would like to see yours.

I've also heard it argued that the ones who sat on thrones - to whom judgment was committed, were the 24 elders - those resurrected by Christ just after His resurrection.  Possible - in my opinion. 

I've also heard it argued that the 144,000 will be the ones seen by John, sitting on thrones - to whom judgment was committed. 

[8thdaypriest]

We KNOW there will be more than one future resurrection.  Agreed. 

There is no expression in the Bible - the "second resurrection".   We use it a lot, to MEAN the resurrection which takes place AFTER the 7th millennium - the resurrection of "the rest". 

The problem was - as an SDA I associated the "second resurrection" with "the second death".  That word "second" neatly tied the concepts together. 

Personally, I like the expression "the last great resurrection", rather than "second resurrection", just because of the association with the word "second".   

There is no passage which says that all of "the rest" will be cast into the "lake of fire".   Which (as I see it) leaves open the possibility that some of these people may HEAR and BELIEVE and be saved. 

Why appoint all of those raised first to be priests, if there is no one else to save?  What would be their priestly role? 

[8thdaypriest]

AT THE SECOND COMING:

Revelation 19:20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.

1000 YEARS LATER - AT THE BATTLE OF GOG/MAGOG

Revelation 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

So - the BEAST is not Satan.  And "the false prophet" is not Satan.

And the BEAST is not just one individual (whether angel or man).  The BEAST of Revelation is a composite of world kingdoms which persecuted the people of God, from ancient times til the very end of this age. 

And I would venture to say that "the false prophet" is not just one individual either - but rather all those who were prophets of Satan and "the Beast". 

So - if the BEAST and the FALSE PROPHET are both thrown into "the lake of fire" AT the Second Coming, who does that leave for "the great resurrection" - 1000 years later?

Is God going to retrieve them from the "lake of fire" to judge them again, and then throw them back in the fire?  

Which begs the question: How can the redeemed from the Second Coming be deciding the punishment to be suffered by "the wicked" when they are already cast into the Lake of Fire?  

Judged can MEAN "governed" as in "Jephthah judged Israel six years" (Jdg 12:7 KJV).  

When Revelation says "judgment was committed to them" - the ones sitting on thrones, it may mean that they govern some group of people.  Maybe they govern Israel redeemed.  Maybe they govern "the rest" when they are resurrected at the 8th millennium. 

[8thdaypriest]

    Daniel 12:1-3  “There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then.  But at that time your people – everyone whose name is found written in the book--will be delivered.  Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.” NIV
 
 It seems CLEAR that two types of people are raised on that day.  

Those raised to everlasting life are mentioned "first".  It's possible "the first resurrection" takes place "first" - but both resurrections happen on the same day.

Concerning those raised to “shame and everlasting contempt” - that is a forever judgment.   Why should the LORD resurrect them AGAIN, to judge them AGAIN, and execute them AGAIN.

        John 5:28-29  “Do not marvel at this; for the hour  is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth – those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Sounds just like Daniel 12:2-3.  Multitudes awake - some to everlasting life - some to everlasting condemnation. 

In context, Jesus was speaking to Jews, concerning the future for Israelites.   The resurrection at "the hour" would therefore be of those who were informed concerning Yahweh (including the informed mix multitude). 

[8thdaypriest]

Matthew 25:31-34 & 41  “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.  All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats.  And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.  
        Then the King will say to those on His right hand,`Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world’...  Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:’”

        This fits with Revelation 19:20 (the Beast and False Prophet are thrown alive into the "lake of fire", and the "lake of fire" was prepared for the devil and his angels). 

The righteous are given "everlasting life" and those raised to "everlasting condemnation" are thrown into the lake of fire - WHEN Jesus returns in glory.  It all happens ON THE SAME DAY.